Looking for Advice

[eggmoe]

Hey everyone, I've gained a lot of insight from reading just a few of the topics on here. You all seem to be a very active community who are proud of what they do..

I'm looking for advice on my situation.

My name is Alex and I'm 20 years old. Up front one of my concerns is that I have poor high school and and college grades from the past 2-3 years. I have failed a lot of classes due to me not finishing things like essays and reports. I can learn material and ace a test no problem, I just have no drive to finish homework. I would describe myself as a problem solver and attribute most of my intelligence to playing with Legos as a kid  
I just scored a 95 on my ASVAB Wednesday with scores high enough to go Nuke. Right now I'm in a place where I don't know what I want to do, and going Nuke sounds to me like it could be a great career for those who want it.


I'm a referral from a friend who just enlisted for an intel job, him and I were both feeling "stuck." I have always considered a career in the military so I made an appointment when they called. I've been talking to them for a few weeks now and this office seems like they are dead set on getting nukes. (I've heard every nuke they recruit counts as two for their enlisted quota. The only reason my friend didn't go nuke was because he didn't score high enough).

I ask my recruiter questions about different jobs, and he answers them, but whenever I talk about a long term goal (possibly after nuke) I can see his interest fade. Once on a whim I asked him about SEALS and he said, "You don't want to go SEALS. That's not for guys like you."


I have lot of wide ranging ambitions, but a dream of mine is to be an Aviator for the Army 160th SOAR, so I keep that in mind when talking about a career. To me, there seems to be more career opportunities and ways to advance in the Navy (where I could possibly finish a degree), so I asked if there were ways to start a career in the Navy, and eventually transfer to Army to go Warrant Officer and flight school. He assures me that there is a "Blue to Green" program where I could transfer from E-5 to Army Warrant Officer. He also assures me that I could do it from Nuke, and that I could apply for things like STA-21 and OCS from boot and A-school.

I doubt I would get accepted to those programs based on my current GPA, but I feel like the Navy would set me on the right path where I could eventually become a more driven individual and turn my academic career around.

However, common sense is also telling me that if the Navy is going to train me to be a Nuke, they wont just let me do all these fancy programs or change rates -they'll just want me to be a Nuke. Which, again, does not sound like a bad job, I just want to know that I can expand from that.


I'm considering a different job with a shorter commitment. Maybe Aviation Machinist? I also plan on talking to an Army recruiter, but I've heard they aren't always reliable.. I know I can't get everything I want immediately, and I'm ready to work. I'm just looking for the right path. My recruiter just tries to convince me that the best path is to just go Nuke and figure it out from there, which just sounds ignorant.

Thanks for any advice in advance, and for reading through my whole post.

[spekkio]

It's good that you are researching your options.

Let me start of with this: There are things that are 'possible,' and things that are 'likely.'

Let's look at the stats sheet: Bad high school and college coursework GPA. Right there, that is going to be a red flag for any intra-service commissioning program. You've demonstrated that you aren't a reliable investment for college from the military's standpoint. STA-21 is already an exceptionally competitive program, less than 100 out of hundreds of thousands of enlisted Sailors get accepted into it a year.

Being a nuke gives you a window to apply for STA-21 from prototype, but there's a catch: You have to commission as a sub or SWO nuke, and if you have a penis it's most likely going to be subs.

Serving as a nuke won't magically raise your GPA. To go 'blue to green' you'll generally need to be in past your initial commitment or just EAOS and re-apply for Army's WOFT, right where you are now except 6-8 years older and possibly not age-eligible for the program.

So, if you want to fly in the military, you have two options:

1) Ask the Army recruiter if you are qualified for the Army's WOFT program.
2) Stop being so lazy with your coursework, raise your college GPA, and apply for Navy or Marine pilot programs after graduation.

Each service has an aptitude test for aviation officers, so that could off-set a mediocre college GPA (~2.8-3.0). Anything less than that, and you simply won't be eligible.

[eggmoe]

Thanks for the no bulls**t answer, that's exactly what I've been looking for. As of right now on the Army's Warrant Officer recruiting site (www.usarec.army.mil/hq/warrant/index.shtml) the age limit for WOFT is 33 years, there's even a section that says "The prime candidate for WO has 5 - 8 years of active federal service (AFS) and meets all other prerequisites." And the page has info for those applying from different branches, which is perfect.

I know that going Navy nuke won't magically raise my GPA, I feel like it would straighten me out and motivate me. Being a nuke does sound really cool. Right now, sitting in my moms house playing videogames isn't doing it.

I'll be sure to speak to an Army recruiter this week, and I'll post how it goes for anyone interested.

[jowlman]

I will preface this by saying that the information that I am talking about is over 25 years old. Then it was once a nuke always a nuke. When the SEALs come to talk to everyone in boot camp, the first thing that they will say is if you are a nuke don't bother to listen to us because we can't have you. Also I served with someone that had gotten out of the navy, went to an army recruiter and tried to sign up for a job that he really wanted. After going through all of the process, he was about to swear in, they came in and told him " You're a navy nuke, we can't take you into the army. If you want back into the military you have to reenlist in the navy and be a nuke."

So I won't say that your recruiter is telling lies, but it sounds to me that he could be telling a lot of half truths.

[twinkletoni]

"I know that going Navy nuke won't magically raise my GPA, I feel like it would straighten me out and motivate me. Being a nuke does sound really cool. Right now, sitting in my moms house playing videogames isn't doing it."

The navy nuke program will not straighten you out or motivate you.  Only YOU can straighten yourself out and motivate yourself.  You can start by getting off your moms couch, stop playing video games and get out and occupy yourself with meaningful activities like volunteer work if paying work is not available, bagging groceries, mowing lawns for the elderly.

I'm not saying you're a bad person, I'm saying that the motivation and straightening out comes from within. 

Best of Luck and, yes, being a navy nuke is a cool job.  It's also a lot of hard work in a short amount of time and you will be held accountable for low grades, etc.

Toni

[HydroDave63]

I doubt I would get accepted to those programs based on my current GPA, but I feel like the Navy would set me on the right path where I could eventually become a more driven individual and turn my academic career around.

I knew a couple guys like that when I was in the nuke pipeline. They were great guys and smart conversationalists....and they washed out of the program.

[spekkio]

I know that going Navy nuke won't magically raise my GPA, I feel like it would straighten me out and motivate me. Being a nuke does sound really cool. Right now, sitting in my moms house playing videogames isn't doing it.

I hope you do like it because if you become a nuke then it's probably all you'll ever be in the military.

Also, as HydroDave implied, nuke and pilot programs require extensive training. The latter won't hold your hand as much as the former, but you'll have many 14 hour days as a nuke self-studying in a cubicle cubicle while not allowed to speak to anyone who isn't staff.

[hamsamich]

I disagree somewhat.  While the Navy nuke program per se will not straighten you out all on its own, going into a challenging program and getting away from a bad or uninspiring situation/environment could unlock a whole new you, but you have to drop all your pride and be ready to do the work.  If your problems really are heightened by your environment and you are ready to embrace a challenge, Navy Nuke could be a good thing.  That is what happened to me in 1988.

It all depends on you, and I'm sure like Hydro said plenty of people think their problem lies externally and it might not.  It might but you can't use it as an excuse.  The Navy will probably be a much tougher environment to live in, but you will be in an environment where people are trying to succeed and there is real opportunity at your fingertips, unlike at home where success seems like a far away thing. 

I used Navy Nuke as a way to prove myself and show myself and family that I was capable of accomplishing something hard and challenging for the first time in my life.  I wasn't ready to tackle success on my own and needed something structured that I could rely on, Navy Nuke was perfect.  I think in college I would have let the low level of accountability suck me back into laziness and excuses.

[spekkio]

I disagree somewhat.  While the Navy nuke program per se will not straighten you out all on its own, going into a challenging program and getting away from a bad or uninspiring situation/environment could unlock a whole new you, but you have to drop all your pride and be ready to do the work.  If your problems really are heightened by your environment and you are ready to embrace a challenge, Navy Nuke could be a good thing.  That is what happened to me in 1988.

Any rating will accomplish this, though. If OP comes to the conclusion that Army WOFT won't happen and he can't finish college with a respectable GPA, then his best bet is to choose a rating or MOS that he would most enjoy and not one that he perceives to be more 'challenging' than the rest. Because truth be told, I didn't find nuke school very challenging -- they won't let you fail. It was just made a lot more miserable than it had to be because that's the way his Highness, the late and venerable ADM Rickover, conceived the program.

[mjd]

I can 2nd HydroDave63, I saw plenty of smart guys wash out of the pipeline. But I also 2nd hamsamich as my situation paralleled his. I also started similar to you eggmoe, 20 and going nowhere. But I knew why, and I didn't like the answer. It was a different time, '64 and I got drafted; instead of Nam I chose Navy Nuke. Yes I was forced to do something, but I understood I did not need to consider multiple long term options. I need to prove myself to others or I wouldn't have any long term options as it doesn't matter what YOU think of your capabilities; it is more why should anyone take a chance on you? Any successful military hitch gives you bonus points with a future employer and if you excelled at a hard one you get even more points. Because you have proved yourself in an organization that doesn't put up with crap. My choice worked out great for me (SPU at prototype) and one 6 year hitch. Then a nuke plant in my hometown backyard, one career job until I retired. So pick one, but just don't "talk the talk"; use the opportunity to take charge of your options.  

[hamsamich]

But Navy Nuke has always been touted as the end all be all for enlisted guys as far as mass produced and accessible programs go for intellectual wanna-be.  Whether it is or not didn't much matter to me, at 18 I believed it.  I felt I had accomplished something more than the average rating could offer.  Maybe it was just me, but it seemed all my navy nuke friends at the time felt the same way.  And as far as they won't let you fail, didn't people fail?  There was plenty of help, but also plenty of pitfalls.  Plenty of guys I knew, smart people, were on M-35 barely surviving who either made it or didn't at the end....

I'm sure there are other challenging programs, but I think Navy Nuke was one of the hardest.

[GLW]

..............they won't let you fail. It was just made a lot more miserable than it had to be because that's the way his Highness, the late and venerable ADM Rickover, conceived the program.

your perception is skewed by your place in time,....

as I lived through the beginnings of the transition from the Rickover paradigm to Big Navy taking back the NNPP I can tell you that Rickover's program had no problem letting you fail out,...

in my time we were expected to show up, do our best, and keep our personal affairs in order with little to no "coaching by the Chiefs" on how to accomplish those tasks,...

and we failed out probably a quarter to a third of all the bright eyed wannabes who started the grist,...

as best as I can tell, the current Big Navy management (which never did like Rickover or his methods) is very like the conventional Navy I remember before I became a nuke:

all enlisteds are unreliable, they must be micromanaged in every aspect of their daily existence from enlistment to EAOS, if they fail it is because they are malingering in their duties not because the now dumbed down program is too much for some, therefore if they begin on the slope to failure they must be flogged into success,....

the Rickover notion of only keeping sailors who want to be in the program has been replaced by the Big Navy tradition that those who berth before the mast do as told to do or are flogged into doing as they are told to do,....

albeit with a nod to 21st century sensibilities as to what a flogging consists of,.....

[spekkio]

your perception is skewed by your place in time,....

What the program "was" is not relevant to OP's situation. What the program "is" is committing a bare minimum of knowledge to memory while being heavily micro-managed. Meanwhile the staff also struggles to maintain throughput in aging MTS's/prototypes.

[GLW]

What the program "was" is not relevant to OP's situation. What the program "is" is committing a bare minimum of knowledge to memory while being heavily micro-managed. Meanwhile the staff also struggles to maintain throughput in aging MTS's/prototypes.

okay, you brought Rickover's era into the discussion,...

I elaborated,....

neither was/is relevant to the OP's situation,...

except as insight that things change, don't wait too long,...

[HeavyD]

Unless something has changed since I retired in Dec 2011, the Navy does NOT have a program called "Blue-to-Green".

The US Army DOES have a program called "Blue-to-Green".  It allows for a separating sailor to leave the Navy (at their EAOS) and enlist directly into the Army the next day.  This eliminates any break in service.  Your time from the navy counts towards your total time of military service for retiring.  If you were an E-6, you get down-ranked to E-5. 

Again, that data is almost 3 years old, but a Google search will do wonders for ya

Best of luck!

[DLGN25]

eggmoe left because he was either not interested in the effort or the technology. 

The rest of the dialog is just inside barking.

Who cares about this thread?  Certainly not the uniformed who started it.

[GLW]

eggmoe left because he was either not interested in the effort or the technology. 

The rest of the dialog is just inside barking.

Who cares about this thread?  Certainly not the uniformed who started it.

the uniformed?!?!


I tawt it wuz de uninformed!*!*!

bark away GOB, bark away !!!!

[hamsamich]

actually the uninformed was last active yesterday, most likely reading these posts.  also, I like to post here so others with the same questions can get answers, not just the op.

[HydroDave63]

I'm kinda hoping he signed up... Fleet needs more A-Gang!  

[holicisms]

I'm kinda hoping he signed up... Fleet needs more berthing trolls!

fix't

[eggmoe]

eggmoe left because he was either not interested in the effort or the technology. 

The rest of the dialog is just inside barking.

Who cares about this thread?  Certainly not the uniformed who started it.

Sorry if I'm wasting your precious thread space.

I've been considering things the past week, still unsure. I spoke to my Army recruiter who assured me that everyone at that office was familiar with WOFT, but that turned out to be untrue. The only information I seem to find about it is from stories of stories of a 'guy I knew who did it', and from other hopefuls on the internet. Some people say there is a low acceptance rate, others say it's high. Funny enough, there is a new recruiter at the Navy office who is making his own packet for himself.

There is nothing disqualifying me from submitting a packet, I have taken a flight physical before and can take the tests. The only discouraging factor is I do have poor grades, and I would need to go on a scavenger hunt for Army aviators to interview me and write me letters of recommendation. People can end up spending a year or two putting together a packet. Going through all that with poor grades feels like a road trip with a flat tire. If I get rejected I still am no further towards ANY career.

I'm now leaning towards enlisting Navy nuke, I feel like it's the best opportunity for me. I've wasted enough of my own time just figuring out what I want to do.

[spekkio]

stuff...

Here's the deal:

Applying to be a pilot is just that - a job application. This is different in enlisting whereupon they evaluate if you are physically fit, give you an aptitude test, and off you go. The application will go as quickly (or as slowly) as you make it. If you are adept at filling out the series of forms, getting your LORs, interviews, and getting your transcripts to the recruiter in a timely fashion, your kit can go to the selection board in as little as 3-6 months. I strongly encourage you to avoid making a rash decision because you're in a rush to join the military. Six months is nothing compared to 6 years doing a job you may come to hate. Find a job in the meantime, work out a lot in preparation for boot/OCS (Army officers have to go through both), and relax.

If you want to be a pilot, you should attempt to go that route and let the Army tell you no. Otherwise, you will just be that annoying midwatch panel operator who won't stfu about how he could've been an Army pilot, and inside you'll be miserable that you never tried. If the grades are the issue, you should suck it up and finish school to raise your GPA, and then re-apply. If they tell you no, then it's not in the cards and you can explore other options, including your second choice of nuke. But at least you tried.

PS: Go to www.airwarriors.com. They have at least 1 guy who flies as an Army WO, and many more familiar with the application process. My gut instinct is telling me that you're having trouble finding information because you are talking to enlisted recruiters and you need to get in touch with an officer recruiter.

[eggmoe]

Hey guys, thanks for the comments and advice, it's really been helpful in sorting out my thoughts these past few weeks. So as an update: this week I spoke to the nuke recruiter in my area and, well, he really sold me on it. The advancement, the bonuses, the commissioning program acceptance rates.. As far as enlisted goes, it sounds like the best opportunity.

I think he got me when he showed me the Facebook page of an ex-nuke who went WOFT.

I do hate the feeling of being sold something though.. Makes me feel manipulated. The only thing I think he may have been exaggerating a bit on is when he told me something along the lines of nukes using commissioning programs to get out of nuke. I don't remember if that's what he said specifically.. but he was telling me how guys go STA-21 or Naval Academy to get away from nuke and go officer. However, things I read online seem to say that you can get commissioned, but only as a nuke officer. I asked him again, "So you can get commissioned and go any path from there? You could be a pilot? I thought the Navy would want to retain their nuclear trained sailors."

To which he responded with something like, "Sure we want to keep you [nuclear], but the guys on those selection boards are some officers who could care less and are just filling their quota."
I've never heard of something like this.. and want to be sure I'm not being sold BS.

Again, I understand talking about the "if's" and "maybe's" sounds like me going nuke while dreaming of something else. I understand the commitment, I accept the job that I sign on for and understand that's what I'll be doing. I just like to think big, and want to know what options are out there.
If I go nuke I could find something I really love, and I'll just reenlist and collect my fat bonuses. If I don't, I'll do my job and can still start plenty of other careers at 28-29.

That in mind, what do you guys think?

[spekkio]

Were you talking to an officer who sat selection boards in Millington?

Would you ask an IT guy for advice on what car to buy? Would you ask a historian for help with math hw?

The recruiter you spoke to is an enlisted Sailor. He only knows his rate, everything else is a sales pitch from the pamphlets sitting in his office. In particular, he knows absolutely nothing about commissioning, the app process, requirements, selection rates, etc.

You seem intent on ignoring the advice given to you in this thread. Good luck future MM3. Think about pilot crew rest when you're 3 weeks into shift work, haven't had a day off in forever, and are standing a midwatch SRW on 3 hours sleep. Be sure to tell everyone about your Army woft application that you're filling out, especially before you have fish.

[HydroDave63]

You seem intent on ignoring the advice given to you in this thread. Good luck future MM3. Think about pilot crew rest when you're 3 weeks into shift work, haven't had a day off in forever, and are standing a midwatch SRW on 3 hours sleep. Be sure to tell everyone about your Army woft application that you're filling out, especially before you have fish.

!   

3:30 to 3:38