Environmental group pushes for return of San Onofre nuclear plant

[RRhoads]

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2016/jul/21/sanonofre-return-group/

[Ksheed]

I saw this last week and laughed. I'm fairly confident that it's to little to late for SONGS.

[Marlin]

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2016/jul/21/sanonofre-return-group/

I think "careful what you ask for" applies to the closure of the plant. There seems to be more negatives than positives in the article on the issue of bringing it back on line. Buyer's Closures remorse at the loss of what would have served the needs of the "Greens".

[GLW]

we already glossed over this yesterday:

....the recipe is carbon credits (subsidies), power contracts, a regulated market (state or region), a low-carbon portfolio standard and a nuclear
portfolio standard,...

the first lemming ( NY State) has run over the cliff,...





and then,...

there's California:

     


Enjoy the Day!!!!

 

as for the Cali Green Come Latelys,...

"No more soup for you!"

[hamsamich]

Hard to push for SanO when Diablo is still slated for closure before its useful life is up.  It probably is too late for songs but it shouldn't be.  Although if by some miracle SanO came back from the dead I would be fairly confident Diablo would follow with a license extension.

[GLW]

Hard to push for SanO when Diablo is still slated for closure before its useful life is up.  It probably is too late for songs but it shouldn't be.  Although if by some miracle SanO came back from the dead I would be fairly confident Diablo would follow with a license extension.

West of the Pecos?!?!?

I don't think believe it can happen,...

possibility?!?!,... one

probability,... nil

[Rerun]

Had nothing to do with greens, everything to do with incompetence

[GLW]

Had nothing to do with greens, everything to do with incompetence

Eeeyup,......

The irony of greens getting  behind bringing SONGS back well after it's too late prompts the commentary,.....

The debacle of the SONGS demise was beaten to death in that other thread a couple years back,...

You remember, you contributed,...

[Marlin]

Hard to push for SanO when Diablo is still slated for closure before its useful life is up.  It probably is too late for songs but it shouldn't be.  Although if by some miracle SanO came back from the dead I would be fairly confident Diablo would follow with a license extension.

According to the article the group trying to reopen San Onofre thinks the only thing that needs to be done is change out the Steam generators. That is not the case and if they wanted to save the plant it should have been done prior to closure.




The solution, as CGNP sees it, is to replace the failed steam generators that led to the closing of San Onofre and get the facility back online.

But Tom Palmisano, the plant’s chief nuclear officer, says that would be unprecedented.

Working with the federal government’s Nuclear Regulatory Commission, San Onofre had its operating license changed in 2013 to prevent the station from putting fuel in its reactors.

In addition, Palmisano said, “I’ve not been maintaining equipment because it’s retired ... There’s no salvage value. It’s all going to be removed and disposed of as part of decommissioning.”


Don Hoffman, president of Maryland-based Excel Services, which has expertise in recommissioning nuclear plants, said, “The only way to re-license it is under all the current standards, not the standards to which it was initially designed and built.

“And (you’d have to) license it all over again. And the time and the effort and the cost of that is just insurmountable.”

[hamsamich]

For sure incompetence, but Cali-Uber-Greens made the environment to even consider a 2nd S/G change-out or even repair non-existent.  The perception of nuclear being green get's stronger every year though, pretty ironic.  The political environment was even more poisonous back then than today for nuclear in California

Yeah there would have to be something unprecedented done by the NRC and I doubt that would happen.

[Rerun]

The point being greens had zero to do with the decision.

[GLW]

The point being greens had zero to do with the decision.

No argument,...

[Marlin]

The point being greens had zero to do with the decision.

   I don't think anyone has argued that point, just that if the greens wanted to have an impact it was before the decision to decommission the plant.

[hamsamich]

I think if that happens (what happened to SanO) in a more nuclear friendly area, like georgia for instance, there would be more of a chance of SanO staying open.  And you can't directly compare it to crystal river, that was only one unit.  Maybe not a good chance, but more of a chance.  Why?  Because those areas are more nuclear friendly (ie, less green).  With the type of pressure those plants were/are getting in CA, there is much less of a margin for error.  The best example actually is Diablo.  It doesn't even have a problem and they are going to shut it down.  Put that plant in Georgia it could run for 80 years.  Why are they shutting Diablo down?  Partially financial, but partially due to the greenies saying we can replace all that carbon free power with renewables.  So there is alot of pressure in Cali to shutdown nuke plants compared to other areas of the country.  Pretty obvious to me.  Now you can argue the severity factor and how much it would cost to re-replace/repair those generators may be reason enough financially.  I think most places down south would crunch the numbers and say "we can operate this duo for decades after another Billion dollar or so investment, or we can build two more new nuke plants for 15 Billion".  To me it is a no brainer that at least down south it would be considered.  GLW I'm surprised if you don't agree with me on this one.  The groot obviously has a poor track record of making calls about the nuclear industry plus he has a one track mind so his opinion is of little value, but I'd like to here what GLW has to say, and why.

[GLW]

.....The groot obviously has a poor track record of making calls about the nuclear industry plus he has a one track mind so his opinion is of little value, but I'd like to here what GLW has to say, and why.

"The groot" has a good record because he has forgotten more about some aspects of commercial nuclear power than many others will ever know,...

and his username is rerun,...

and he presents very condensed versions of what he discerns to be the situation,...

this annoys some or even many people,...

people like to be annoyed,...

over in the SONGS thread, from many moons ago there was a post, a dead on post, at that time and for that place:

Simple, we are professionals and realize this is a BUSINESS. If a plant is uneconomical to run then it should be shut down, it's no different than any facility.
SONGs, Crystal River, Kewaunee became uneconomical. Eventually you have to decide if by the time you solve the issues at these facilities and it costs xxx dollars but you'll only earn back XX dollars is it worth it? Well when you are a utility who has to pay a dividend to shareholders then NO it is not worth it. It's pure economics. I got news for you, the utilities are not in business to make ecologically sound energy, they went years without doing so. THEY ARE IN THE BUSINESS TO MAKE MONEY!

there has been a change to this status quo as discussed over in this thread:

N.Y. regulators approve clean energy standard with nuclear subsidies

https://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,41771.msg195542.html#msg195542

the change is profound vis a vis this statement:

...I got news for you, the utilities are not in business to make ecologically sound energy, they went years without doing so. THEY ARE IN THE BUSINESS TO MAKE MONEY!

New York State has determined a going forward path where utilities WILL make ecologically sound energy and those same utilities WILL make money as they do it,...

the cost will be absorbed by the consumer,...

all that is left for the utility is to take the money on the table or walk away from it,...

New York State has already levied the cost for this onto my monthly burden,...

as a shareholder, the utility better dam well take the money and return me my dividend,...

I would like to offset some of that 24 dollars per year with continued dividends, but that is all Phyrric,...

how this new paradigm plays out in other states is yet to be seen,...

as for SONGS?!?!?!?

SONGS broke SONGS, there was no will amongst any of the players, including the greens, to repair and rerun SONGS, and now SONGS is past the point of no responsible return at any level,...

as for this thread: I find it disturbingly amusing that the greens espouse pie in the sky alternatives at every turn with no regard or true knowledge of the comprehensive cycles and impacts that their green dreams entail,...

[Marlin]

"The groot" has a good record because he has forgotten more about some aspects of commercial nuclear power than many others will ever know,...

That makes him a fine historian and he has been wrong on a number of issues that deal with the future of nuclear. Like Groot if you cannot read his mind his terse pronoucements are meaningless and unproductive.

[GLW]

That makes him a fine historian and he has been wrong on a number of issues that deal with the future of nuclear. Like Groot if you cannot read his mind his terse pronoucements are meaningless and unproductive.

just about everybody who jumped on the "Nuclear Renaissance" bandwagon has been tossed to the ground when that bandwagon hit the hard cold telephone pole of reality,...

that would be about 108 posters over 624 posts on about 6 different threads,...

I do not remember any rerun (or earlier incarnations) jumping on that bandwagon,...

a couple of hopeful, friendly waves as the wagon rolled by, but no jumping on board,...

no one really even posts about a Renaissance any longer,...

there's lots of wrong to go around on the boards,...

[Marlin]

just about everybody who jumped on the "Nuclear Renaissance" bandwagon has been tossed to the ground when that bandwagon hit the hard cold telephone pole of reality,...

that would be about 108 posters over 624 posts on about 6 different threads,...

I do not remember any rerun (or earlier incarnations) jumping on that bandwagon,...

a couple of hopeful, friendly waves as the wagon rolled by, but no jumping on board,...

no one really even posts about a Renaissance any longer,...

there's lots of wrong to go around on the boards,...

  Much of the Renaissance is projected for a decade(s) in the future in new designs and fuels. It is happening around the world just not in the US right now. Discussions about nuclears future have not been definitively written and certainly not for the world as a whole that is moving foreward as we should be.

no one really even posts about a Renaissance any longer,...

there's lots of wrong to go around on the boards,...

   Yes I do when I see new articles pro or con and the immediate response from the big frog in the little pond is "never happen" no context on why or where or anything else, ergo "Groot"

   Hell even fusion deserves a little discussion even if some academicians call it a jobs program for scientists. It is at least a mental exercise in who, what, why, or when.

   We could all be wrong does that matter on a discussion board. Shutting down people who would like to explore at least the possibilities violates the fundamental rules on Nuke Worker.


4. Please learn to be respectful, tolerate and support each other.  NukeWorker.com's goal is to help others, not see how many people we can annoy. Do not initiate arguments or tension. This will only cause the triggering of other members and make this site less professional.


6. ____________________ kids visit this site, the NRC visits this site, the Secret Service visits this site, Managers visit this site, I visit the site, good Christian people visit the site, etc. _____________________________

[GLW]

  Much of the....

okay then, my final open forum thoughts (on this "groot" tangent):

my reply to hamsamich is from the "stay true to yourself" vantage,...

taking the time to nickname another user as "groot", to begin a coriolis vortex which entrains other users into a tit for tat focus on a user as opposed to the topics at hand does no more (and possibly more harm) for the discussion on the boards than the blunt one liners of one user,...

so;

users can focus on trying to make the outlier curmudgeon play by the sensitivities of the collective,...

OR,...

users can stay focused on the topic and either engage the one liner user as they would any other user,...or not engage at all,...

but no one has to turn any of this into a thread ranging netwar based on insensitivity to what the collective feels is proper decorum,...

these are grown ups forums, not second grade playgrounds,...

if children do indeed read these forums:

better those children witness the ability of users to stay focused and on point in the presence of pointed discord, than to see the grown ups devolve into second graders with a grudge,...

if a user allows another "user" to "trigger" a less professional response, the "triggered" user needs to own that, not blame it on another user,...

I can only speak to other users as a user,...

if moderators choose to engage in nicknames and public shaming for the better good of the collective that is above my paygrade and I have no stakeholder input regarding the public presentation of a private enterprise webpage as managed by that webpage's experts, moderators and administrators,...

almost forgot; (sic for beercort), and peace,...GLW,...

[Ksheed]

okay then, my final open forum thoughts (on this "groot" tangent):

my reply to hamsamich is from the "stay true to yourself" vantage,...

taking the time to nickname another user as "groot", to begin a coriolis vortex which entrains other users into a tit for tat focus on a user as opposed to the topics at hand does no more (and possibly more harm) for the discussion on the boards than the blunt one liners of one user,...

so;

users can focus on trying to make the outlier curmudgeon play by the sensitivities of the collective,...

OR,...

users can stay focused on the topic and either engage the one liner user as they would any other user,...or not engage at all,...

but no one has to turn any of this into a thread ranging netwar based on insensitivity to what the collective feels is proper decorum,...

these are grown ups forums, not second grade playgrounds,...

if children do indeed read these forums:

better those children witness the ability of users to stay focused and on point in the presence of pointed discord, than to see the grown ups devolve into second graders with a grudge,...

if a user allows another "user" to "trigger" a less professional response, the "triggered" user needs to own that, not blame it on another user,...

I can only speak to other users as a user,...

if moderators choose to engage in nicknames and public shaming for the better good of the collective that is above my paygrade and I have no stakeholder input regarding the public presentation of a private enterprise webpage as managed by that webpage's experts, moderators and administrators,...

almost forgot; (sic for beercort), and peace,...GLW,...

Well said.

[hamsamich]

I only said it would be more likely songs would have stayed open if the greens weren't adding additional pressure.  You have to read my post.  I know what songs did to songs. I talked to one of the engineers and many of the RP techs that worked out there.  And I didn't nickname him so don't direct that one at me, you still really didn't answer my question fully,  your post is just as off topic as the rest of us.

Sorry about the Groot stuff but the guy has earned his nickname not due to his sturdiness in the nuke industry but due to his incessant one-track-mind posting with added somewhat veiled insults.  We all know that financials are important in the energy sector, but rerun talks to most people on this forum like we/they are idiots and doesn't add value with most of his posting.  Time and time again (you can go back and re-read his posts for hundreds of examples) he insults people with back-handed or direct assumptions that they are idiots, lazy, unfit...the list goes on.  And some of them are.  But you can't read a post and assume the worst about people every time, which he does.  He has called others worse than "groot" plenty of times, and however awesome he is as an operator and knowledgeable about the industry, he treats people like dirt on this forum and has been doing it for a long time.  Like I said, he should take a long look at himself and why he comes here to post.  This is a nuclear forum and we would like to have a discussion.  Pros and Cons yes, same exact post and under your breath name calling, no.  Rerun posts like a second grader time and time again and I am sick of it.

[GLW]

I only said it would be more likely songs would have stayed open if the greens weren't adding additional pressure. .........

No argument,...

[GLW]

...............,  your post is just as off topic as the rest of us...........

No argument,......

[Marlin]

okay then, my final open forum thoughts (on this "groot" tangent):

my reply to hamsamich is from the "stay true to yourself" vantage,...

taking the time to nickname another user as "groot", to begin a coriolis vortex which entrains other users into a tit for tat focus on a user as opposed to the topics at hand does no more (and possibly more harm) for the discussion on the boards than the blunt one liners of one user,...

so;

users can focus on trying to make the outlier curmudgeon play by the sensitivities of the collective,...

OR,...

users can stay focused on the topic and either engage the one liner user as they would any other user,...or not engage at all,...

but no one has to turn any of this into a thread ranging netwar based on insensitivity to what the collective feels is proper decorum,...

these are grown ups forums, not second grade playgrounds,...

if children do indeed read these forums:

better those children witness the ability of users to stay focused and on point in the presence of pointed discord, than to see the grown ups devolve into second graders with a grudge,...

if a user allows another "user" to "trigger" a less professional response, the "triggered" user needs to own that, not blame it on another user,...

I can only speak to other users as a user,...

if moderators choose to engage in nicknames and public shaming for the better good of the collective that is above my paygrade and I have no stakeholder input regarding the public presentation of a private enterprise webpage as managed by that webpage's experts, moderators and administrators,...

almost forgot; (sic for beercort), and peace,...GLW,...

   He could return to a banned status or we can delete his inappropriate posts I suppose, how does that work for you. Not well I am sure, we do recognize his ability to add to the site and his ability to be a troll. Deleting his posts or banning him are a bit draconian. Chiding him for inappropriate behavior would seem to be a happy medium. "Groot" is not all that negative a moniker he was a very endearing character just hard to understand nukeworker is a bit of a family that does have a few black sheep.


   My point of view... More Sheriff Taylor and less Deputy Fife where by the book I would be deleting many of his posts. I would much prefer he modify his online persona that may work for operations subordinates but not so much for others who use this site and have not developed a thick skin that many experienced nukeworkers have grown.

[hamsamich]

Heck I don't think he should be banned.  He does add a great deal of value every once in a while.  I just wish he was able to look at both sides of the coin, even if one side was 95% and the other 5%.  Nothing is black and white.  Ever.  Except for the fact that nothing is black and white.  Serial killers have fascinated people for hundreds of years.  What they do is 100% evil and terrible, but the discussions go on and on.  I love watching forensics shows and shows about the psychology of a serial killers.  But nobody says "shutup they are evil", end of story. I'm not saying nuclear is good or bad, but just taking the black and white thing to an extreme.  Financials is a huge part of the reason nuclear power should operate, but it is never the whole story behind why nuclear plants exist.  Ever.

Ought to be is not the same as what exists.  We are usually talking about the state of the nuclear industry, not the way it ought to be.  Rerun confuses the two ALOT.  I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here, hopefully he isn't just posting BS to see what we say.  If that is the case he should be banned.