Starting mm a-school with Pregnant fiancé. Looking for advice

[JPun2321]

Hello, my fiancé is about 13 weeks pregnant. We weren't planning on it. Finished boot camp about a week ago and she sprung the news on me on graduation. My question is how likely am I to make it through this program with a kid due for sometime in January? I'm an mm. What happens if you fail any portion of the schooling? Do you actually go pact or do you get to pick from a small selection based on the needs of the navy? I'm 22 and I'm going to do whatever needs to be done for my kid but I just need a real response or advice on this. Thanks

[TVA]

Did you ask a Navy supervisor?

[scotoma]

It's been a while since I was in. Your Navy benefits are different being single and you won't have access to the married, family benefits. You didn't say where your home is, A school location, or what Navy program you've chosen, so I have have no way of knowing what your chances are. You should be close to done with A school before fatherhood. Talk to some Navy veterans for advice, maybe you can start with the local recruiter while you are on leave. It is my experience hat they like the attention and opportunity to help their shipmates.

[MMM]

My question is how likely am I to make it through this program with a kid due for sometime in January?
It depends on how much effort you put in. As scotoma said, you should be finishing up A School by then, you might be starting power school or you might be on hold.

What happens if you fail any portion of the schooling?
If you fail a test, it's not the end of the world, you will get lots of additional "help" and mandatory study time. If you fail any of the final milestones, you might get a retest or an academic board, which will determine if you stay in the program.

Do you actually go pact or do you get to pick from a small selection based on the needs of the navy?
What is "pact"? If you graduate A school, you're an MM, so if you fail out after that, you go to the fleet as a non-nuke MM3. If you fail A school, I'm not sure, I think you go to the fleet as an undesignated FN.

I suggest you take TVAs advice and ask one of your supervisors.

[GLW]

just a question,....

was there a pregnant fiancee issued to you in your sea bag?!?!?!?!

because I've been out of the Navy a very long time, and that's all the intra-Navy support I remember for such a predicament,...

[shehane]

I was in prototype when my second kid was born.  I had already qualified and was waiting for my date to ship out to Charleston.  I was actually held over for a couple of weeks and got a whole day off when she was born.  I was lucky.  The statement I heard the most was as GLW stated, "we didn't issue you a family, its not our responsibility". 

[nowhereman]

I see you are asking about finishing school and what happens. Have you considered another aspect of the equation? When your son/daughter comes out(they don't stay in there forever), you will need to be married or sign full custody over to your fiance, or your parents and you will need a family care plan. You will not be very deployable if you have custody of your child.  []So you said fiance, so marriage was thought out, just maybe a little quicker than you thought.

You just need to have a legal marriage license for the state you are in, maybe the command will want you two to talk to the base chaplain, but you don't need permission to get married, unless you are marrying a foreign national.
Marriage will get you benefits you need for your growing family.
So, two consenting adults, doing adult 'things' do have actual adult consequences.

[GLW]

..... and you will need a family care plan.....

is this a contemporary Navy requirement?!?!?!

..........So, two consenting adults, doing adult 'things' do have actual adult consequences.

so, as snarky as "was not issued in your sea bag" may sound to the snowflake generation "adult consequences" was the whole point of the snark,....

the military exists to break things and kill people,...

the military needs persons to accomplish that mission, not families,....

the military is not a family unit,....

families do not easily, and at the whim of some political motivation, sends their dearest and most loved to go kill or be killed,...

so, our most common military branch on these boards is the USN,...

and I found the USN to be most non-conducive to my family,....

some do,....

I was not lucky that way,...

but, not having a family in the Navy is an adolescent on steroids existence,....

eat here, sleep there, work where and when we tell you, take a vacation when you can and enjoy the hell out of it,...

having a family in the Navy is an adult on steroids existence,...

that's why the Navy does not issue families,...

families get in the way of killing other people,...


for the OP this is all too late except the caution about "adult consequences on steroids",...


and maybe excepting that the OP might get lucky,...

[nowhereman]

I'll have to say if you are looking for answers that are current, just follow TVA's advice, just talk to your commands Master Chief.  Cuz, all the information  here is reflections of how it was back in the 1970' s  or 1980's, maybe even from the 90's.
So, alas poor Yorick seems in order...

One common concept remains though. Academic ability paired with your willingness to put in the effort will determine your fate.

There are enough reddit posts, Y/Answers post and threads on here to supply plenty of insight.
Oh by the way, 2009/2010? was the time frame the military  started formalizing a plan for single parents.

[GLW]

.....Oh by the way, 2009/2010? was the time frame the military  started formalizing a plan for single parents.

that's what I was looking for,...

AISI,...

albeit back in the day we were given a lot of snarky commentary and not a whole lot of guidance BUT!!!!,...

we were allowed to manage our lives as adults,....

to wit:

between nuke school and prototype I had about 28 days of leave, plus proceed time and travel time, so essentially I had about 40 days of no muster, no phone calls, no anything to do with the Navy at all,....

just show up in the right place, on the right day, at the right time,...

no cell phone check ins with nobody,...

no GPS,....

you know,...like an adult,....

I will caveat that there were individuals who crashed and burned without daily guidance,...

but for those of us able to handle our own lives; well nobody cared what your "plan" was as long as it did not deter from your duty,...

I'd be miffed in today's Navy,...

if I am old enough to make a baby, well then I'm old enough to tend to it's needs without anybody holding my hand,...

and I insist on being respected to that standard,...

[gb54123]

I was just stationed at NNPTC and I ran into this situation often enough.

The first thing that I would tell you is that marriage and a kid are going to be two huge distractions to your academic obligations. The training pipeline isn't impossibly hard, but it is very challenging for the majority of people who go through it. Having a brand new wife with no family support and a child on the way is going to negatively impact your academics - no matter how smart or gifted you are.

Your SLPO is going to direct you to all of the resources that you'll need. There is Fleet and Family, Navy and Marine Core Relief Society and a Navy Club that does baby orientation stuff in Charleston. I'd stay on base housing, even though it can be shitty, because that will give you more time to be at home and to study.

If you fail out in A-school, you'll drop back to E-1 (unless it is protected in your contract) and you'll get a limited selection of jobs to pick from. If you have disciplinary problems, you might get sent home. If you fail out after A-school, you'll become a conventional mechanic.

My brutally honest recommendation is to consider not having your fiance coming to Charleston at all. I don't know about your situation (and I don't care to know), but if you got engaged because you knocked her up then doubling down may be a profoundly poor choice. Maybe having her family around to give her help is going to be better than the sporadic support you'll be able to give, especially if you struggle with academic/military standards.

[shehane]

My brutally honest recommendation is to consider not having your fiance coming to Charleston at all. I don't know about your situation (and I don't care to know), but if you got engaged because you knocked her up then doubling down may be a profoundly poor choice. Maybe having her family around to give her help is going to be better than the sporadic support you'll be able to give, especially if you struggle with academic/military standards.



Great input gb54123! 

[spekkio]

The first thing that I would tell you is that marriage and a kid are going to be two huge distractions to your academic obligations. The training pipeline isn't impossibly hard, but it is very challenging for the majority of people who go through it. Having a brand new wife with no family support and a child on the way is going to negatively impact your academics - no matter how smart or gifted you are.

Your SLPO is going to direct you to all of the resources that you'll need. There is Fleet and Family, Navy and Marine Core Relief Society and a Navy Club that does baby orientation stuff in Charleston. I'd stay on base housing, even though it can be shitty, because that will give you more time to be at home and to study.

These two paragraphs are the only halfway decent advice in this entire thread.

OP, just prepare your future spouse for the reality that you are going to work a 60-70 hour work week in Charleston. How you chop that up in NPS (12-14 hour days with weekends off or 10-12 hour days working a near full day on weekends) will mostly be up to you. The best thing you can do is utilize the quiet study room and utilize breaks to get your HW done or study more instead of BS with classmates for 10 minutes.

Plenty of people manage to work 60 hour weeks and have families in civilian jobs as well, so it's plenty do-able.

Prototype will be a bit tougher with shift work because the baby doesn't care that you're on mids, but as long as you make good use of your time at work you'll do just fine.

Aside from that, just make sure you and your wife fully understand the resources that are available to you at Fleet and Family, and despite GLW's cynical posts (more on that below) you'll find that most people in the Navy are very supportive of families so that you can focus on doing your job.

My brutally honest recommendation is to consider not having your fiance coming to Charleston at all. I don't know about your situation (and I don't care to know), but if you got engaged because you knocked her up then doubling down may be a profoundly poor choice. Maybe having her family around to give her help is going to be better than the sporadic support you'll be able to give, especially if you struggle with academic/military standards.

This is terrible advice spoken by someone who has never been a voluntary geobachelor (someone who lives separate from their family because they choose to and not because they have unaccompanied orders). It will make OP's personal life substantially harder to manage and put him in a financial hole to become a voluntary geobachelor.

I see you are asking about finishing school and what happens. Have you considered another aspect of the equation? When your son/daughter comes out(they don't stay in there forever), you will need to be married or sign full custody over to your fiance, or your parents and you will need a family care plan. You will not be very deployable if you have custody of your child.  []So you said fiance, so marriage was thought out, just maybe a little quicker than you thought.

To clarify this post: OP will only need a family care plan if he has a child and is not married. He won't have to sign over full custody; a simple signed letter by his fiance stating "I'm the baby's mom, I live with OP, and I'm going to take care of the child while I am deployed" will suffice.

just a question,....

was there a pregnant fiancee issued to you in your sea bag?!?!?!?!

because I've been out of the Navy a very long time, and that's all the intra-Navy support I remember for such a predicament,...

You need to cut this b.s. out. Your post is not aligned with Navy policy or its core values. I don't doubt that some (very bad) Chief told you this behind closed doors one day, but you won't find them saying that crap while the XO or CO is walking around the space because it would be inconsistent with their command policy. The Navy does not spend millions upon millions of dollars on Fleet and Family support programs because it believes that Sailors with families should be hung out to dry. On the contrary, the Navy wants every Sailor to know that it's there to help support their families if they need assistance so the servicemember can focus on performing his duties and responsibilities. And if some real emergency does come up, the vast vast majority of leaders will be understanding and bend over backward to ensure OP can take care of the home front and come back to work undistracted.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your leadership, but don't spread this expectation to the new guys. It's not the norm. A good command composed of good leaders fosters a sense of family among its Sailors, Chiefs, and Officers vice rejecting it.

[GLW]

.... You need to cut this b.s. out. Your post is not aligned with Navy policy or its core values. I don't doubt that some (very bad) Chief told you this behind closed doors one day......

actually it was an XO, in the XO's stateroom, who eventually became a Rear-Admiral, you probably know of him,....

don't get me wrong, more than one chief said similar,...

so, let me tell the OP some hard truth straight from the O-gangers keyboard,...

"just prepare your spouse for the reality",....

you're gonna be told that your spouse has to understand the reality of the Naval Service a lot pal,....

so let me advise the OP, who hopefully can pick up what I have been laying down this whole thread,....

you're a blueshirt, you're being forged to be an integral cog in the Navy machine, but you're just a cog,...

and there's nothing wrong with that, it's a good, honorable thing,....

when you're a cog assigned to a machine (aka as a carrier or a submarine), then the machine needs that cog to be on the machine,...

you are not a ready spare (unless you're on shore duty, which is a rest and repair phase for the cog),...

if the cog has a family, which you now have, then understand that the machine will support your family so that you "the cog" can support the machine,....

the previous poster (an Officer and a Gentleman) has not stated anything different,...

all of his carefully crafted managerial statements always stress the Navy supports your family so that you can support the Navy,...

there is a breaking point where that support doesn't cut it anymore,...

[fiveeleven]

I had a feeling that was Richard Gere.

[spekkio]

actually it was an XO, in the XO's stateroom, who eventually became a Rear-Admiral, you probably know of him,....

Really doesn't matter what his name is. What he said to you as an XO demonstrated poor leadership. Hopefully he's matured since then, having done both a command and major command tour.

so, let me tell the OP some hard truth straight from the O-gangers keyboard,... "just prepare your spouse for the reality",....

you're gonna be told that your spouse has to understand the reality of the Naval Service a lot pal,....

I used those words because as a 22 year old, OP is likely working his first 'real job' (as in, he will develop a specialized skillset that can't be immediately replaced by any Joe off the street and will be personally important to the organization's success) and his fiance is probably younger than even he is. I would use the same phrase if he were embarking on a career as a software engineer, accountant, doctor, lawyer, or any other industry that entails long hours and low pay in the junior phases of their career paths. There is a balance and there are going to be times where the job gets higher priority, military or otherwise - that is the "prepare your fiance for the reality" part. OP could decide to work a 35-40 hour a week cubicle gig or labor trade, but they tend to not pay very well and have limited growth potential.

so let me advise the OP, who hopefully can pick up what I have been laying down this whole thread,....

you're a blueshirt, you're being forged to be an integral cog in the Navy machine, but you're just a cog,...

and there's nothing wrong with that, it's a good, honorable thing,....

when you're a cog assigned to a machine (aka as a carrier or a submarine), then the machine needs that cog to be on the machine,...

you are not a ready spare (unless you're on shore duty, which is a rest and repair phase for the cog),...

if the cog has a family, which you now have, then understand that the machine will support your family so that you "the cog" can support the machine,....

the previous poster (an Officer and a Gentleman) has not stated anything different,...

all of his carefully crafted managerial statements always stress the Navy supports your family so that you can support the Navy,...

there is a breaking point where that support doesn't cut it anymore,...

The difference is that my tone doesn't sound like there's some ulterior motive to the Navy taking care of its people (e.g., your use of 'just a cog in the machine'). Any any other quality, professional organization who has good management will take ensure that it helps cater to employees' personal needs. It turns out that decades of research shows that employees are more productive if they aren't stressed about issues at home. That's one of the core tenets of management. And again, every senior leader I've ever encountered in 11 years of service has genuinely cared about their people's well being - not because the Navy tells them to, but because they're good people who actually care about others. I can't say I've had such a 'hit' rate when I worked in corporate America in a former life. And some industries (like restaurant/service) simply won't give two shits about your family life because there's another swinging dick behind you who can do the job without strings attached, and if you don't work you just don't get paid - assuming you keep the job.

The Navy might not be the best organization to support family needs, but it's definitely above average. And every single case I've heard where a spouse is mad at "the Navy" or "the command" because their husband couldn't "get time off for [insert important family event/milestone]," it's because Sailor Timmy didn't even pipe up to ask for the time. Even on submarines, we can almost always support giving the time or even leaving a Sailor in-port for important family events - yes, even during ORSE. You can get into the whole 'intrusive leadership' philosophy here (personally I hate that phrase - what we're really trying to say is that we actually have to be managers as well as leaders), but at the end of the day an NCO with a family at home needs to have the stones to talk to his Chief about getting time off when he needs it.

If you're trying to say that the deployments followed by perpetual 3-section duty in-port was too much for your family (the latter also usually being a result of poor leadership), then I get it and that's a different discussion. Would I tell OP to purposefully have children as a junior enlisted Sailor because it's all rainbows and unicorns? No, but that ship has sailed, so it's a moot point.

But don't make it sound like there's some facade going on here based on a couple of negative interactions you had with leadership. There isn't one.

[GLW]

..........If you're trying to say that the deployments followed by perpetual 3-section duty in-port was too much for your family (the latter also usually being a result of poor leadership), then I get it and that's a different discussion. Would I tell OP to purposefully have children as a junior enlisted Sailor because it's all rainbows and unicorns? No, but that ship has sailed, so it's a moot point.

it was not leadership, it was manning,....

building to a 600 ship Navy and going to sea constantly (1263 days underway on nuclear power in a 5 year sea tour over two different commands) to rattle sabers at the Soviets,...

if the Navy is more laid back and accommodating nowadays well then so much the better for sailors serving in a salad days Navy,...

compared to the WW2 guys, we were running around in air conditioned hotels,...

The difference is that my tone doesn't sound like there's some ulterior motive to the Navy taking care of its people (e.g., your use of 'just a cog in the machine'). Any any other quality, professional organization who has good management will take ensure that it helps cater to employees' personal needs. It turns out that decades of research shows that employees are more productive if they aren't stressed about issues at home. That's one of the core tenets of management.....

well we can go insane and off-course taking on that tangent,....


I am intrigued that the Navy looks upon sailors as "employees",...

....Even on submarines, we can almost always support giving the time or even leaving a Sailor in-port for important family events.....

understanding it's the Navy that defines important,...

But don't make it sound like there's some facade going on here based on a couple of negative interactions you had with leadership. There isn't one.

as I have stated numerous times around these forums;

excluding my family, the Navy was the easiest job I have ever had,...

show up on time, perform as instructed, do not leave without permission to leave,...

crux being, if the Navy says you cannot leave, you cannot,...

most of the time, this will not be a problem that cannot be remedied at EAOS,...

but when it cannot be remedied, you are contractually owned to the needs of the Navy,...

and I believe that missing movement is still punishable under the UCMJ,...

there are consequences for "missing movement" in CIVLANT, but not punishment, not forfeiture of liberty to come and go,...

and the OP still needs to understand the seriousness of that bottom line in the USN,...

and a fiancee and a child may very well have to take a back seat to duty,...

it goes with the uniform,....

if you say it doesn't, then the Navy has changed,...

[hamsamich]

honestly...I think GLW was spot on for the  Navy that I remember late 80s to mid 90s.  It all depended on your command and to a lesser extent how they felt about you.  Navy leadership was like a box of chocolates.  The people in your chain of command had all the power and pretty much full control over your life.  My last CO was decent, and that made the last year on my sub tolerable (Ostendorf, former NRC commissioner).  But my first CO was horrid (R....) and made life miserable for everyone, compounded by our terrible XO (M.....) and rubber minded yes-men on the way down to MLPO.  Maybe Spekio had great people in charge of him and under him, but the problem with the Navy is life could be great one minute, and with a blink of the eye disintegrate in front of you.  People complained to squadron, but nothing was done....nobody cared really, to them we were all a bunch of blueshirt whiners...no really.  You can say all you want about your own personal experiences and I will believe them but this is what happened to me...most of us felt the same way....all the ELTs all the Mdiv guys all the Ediv guys...even some of the chiefs.

[GLW]

I had a feeling that was Richard Gere.

I have a lot of respect for the insights spekkio brings to these forums,....

very few O-gangers contribute here,...

my reckoning is that he and I see just about eye to eye on about 72.6% of things,...

but the perspective and the USN experience between enlisted and officer is real,...

I mean, unless things have really changed I imagine Officers still sit in a wardroom and still have their meal served to them on the ship's service china,...



not quite the same as standing in line and eating off of pyrex,...

I cannot remember the last enlisted man who was sent to earn a master's degree as part of his service term to the nation,...

no matter how smart he or she was,....

but I know a few and know of many officers who did,....

it's a different world for the two types of service, I'm pretty sure that carries over to the Officer compensation package, including the Fleet and Family support programs,....


maybe I'm wrong,...

[GLW]

honestly...I think GLW was spot on for the  Navy that I remember late 80s to mid 90s.  It all depended on your command and to a lesser extent how they felt about you.....

you probably need to edit out those deleterious names,....

we don't typically do that around here,....

[hamsamich]

good call..got caught up in a moment of reality....

[spekkio]

it was not leadership, it was manning,....

building to a 600 ship Navy and going to sea constantly (1263 days underway on nuclear power in a 5 year sea tour over two different commands) to rattle sabers at the Soviets,...

if the Navy is more laid back and accommodating nowadays well then so much the better for sailors serving in a salad days Navy,...

The SORM now requires ISIC to be notified if the ship can't man a 4-section in-port watchbill. Submarines are manned enough to go 5 or 6-section in-port in the ER (recognizing that is infeasible because it takes a while for people to qualify and then others rotate). If they aren't actually 4-section, it's because the leadership is not properly prioritizing and managing their Sailors' qualifications.

I don't have data from the late 90s/early 00s, but if you're trying to convince me that the manning allocation ca. 2010-2019 is different than 1990-2000, I don't believe you.

I am intrigued that the Navy looks upon sailors as "employees",...

You're missing the point. The point is that people need to be managed, and that includes any personal issues. Military, civilian...makes no difference.

understanding it's the Navy that defines important,...

The CO ultimately decides what's important. He's the only one who can deny special liberty or leave. Quite frankly, I never had a Sailor get that far because every "I'm sending [person] home to take care of [personal issue] was just a 'very well' from me.

and I believe that missing movement is still punishable under the UCMJ,...

there are consequences for "missing movement" in CIVLANT, but not punishment, not forfeiture of liberty to come and go,...

and the OP still needs to understand the seriousness of that bottom line in the USN,...

and a fiancee and a child may very well have to take a back seat to duty,...

it goes with the uniform,....

if you say it doesn't, then the Navy has changed,...

I take issue with how you describe the Navy as unique in that you can be punished for not showing up to work and that sometimes your job will have to take precedence over family. Last I checked, playing hookie with work in CIVLANT will get you a pink slip.

but the perspective and the USN experience between enlisted and officer is real,...

I mean, unless things have really changed I imagine Officers still sit in a wardroom and still have their meal served to them on the ship's service china,...

not quite the same as standing in line and eating off of pyrex,...

Appreciate the sleight.  I'm not sure what dining culture has to do with this topic, but okay.

One thing you hit on is that we can't account for every asshole 1st class petty officer and chief petty officer who filters out a request to go take care of family issues. Best we can do is to continue to put out that's not the standard so that the Sailors feel empowered enough to speak up when they meet resistance. But again, my experience has been that 'resistance' is almost always self imposed.

I cannot remember the last enlisted man who was sent to earn a master's degree as part of his service term to the nation,...

no matter how smart he or she was,....

but I know a few and know of many officers who did,....

Again, not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand, but if it makes you feel any better ...

1) I personally think it's a shame that the Navy doesn't have a program for enlisted Sailors to earn a bachelor's degree and stay enlisted.

2) NPS has residence master's programs for enlisted E-6 and above who have bachelor's degrees, although they are not well advertised.

it's a different world for the two types of service, I'm pretty sure that carries over to the Officer compensation package, including the Fleet and Family support programs,....maybe I'm wrong,...

You are wrong on the Fleet and Family support programs. They are open to everyone regardless of rank.

[hamsamich]

It can get you a pink slip....but not a big chicken dinner....and it takes ALOT to get that pink slip at most places.  Our leading ELT was giving us day after duty at 1200 hours if all the work was done.  The Mdiv chief found out and "told on us".  So that stopped after a week.  Would have loved to be part of the Navy you are talking about....never saw it that good.

[GLW]

we're gettin' circular, but since you took the time,...

The SORM now requires ISIC to be notified if the ship can't man a 4-section in-port watchbill. Submarines are manned enough to go 5 or 6-section in-port in the ER (recognizing that is infeasible because it takes a while for people to qualify and then others rotate). If they aren't actually 4-section, it's because the leadership is not properly prioritizing and managing their Sailors' qualifications.

I don't have data from the late 90s/early 00s, but if you're trying to convince me that the manning allocation ca. 2010-2019 is different than 1990-2000, I don't believe you.

I was 1980 to 1988,...

manning was tight,...

it's why a lot of us did five year sea tours,...and more,...

You're missing the point. The point is that people need to be managed, and that includes any personal issues. Military, civilian...makes no difference.

The CO ultimately decides what's important. He's the only one who can deny special liberty or leave. Quite frankly, I never had a Sailor get that far because every "I'm sending [person] home to take care of [personal issue] was just a 'very well' from me.
I take issue with how you describe the Navy as unique in that you can be punished for not showing up to work and that sometimes your job will have to take precedence over family. Last I checked, playing hookie with work in CIVLANT will get you a pink slip.

the point is in CIVLANT you cannot be confined to base or a ship for playing hookie with work,...

a pink slip is as bad as it can get,...

and pink slips come really quick and easy and painless,...

the Navy equivalent of a pink slip is only rarely quick and easy and painless (if ever),...

consequences are not the same as pain in this point - counterpoint,...

Appreciate the sleight.  I'm not sure what dining culture has to do with this topic, but okay.

it's the USN culture (inherited from the Royal Navy and other european models),...

those who live before the mast have a much different Navy experience than the officers,...

including the little "extras" that make the married officer's experience very different from the married enlisted's,...

just ask any zoomie,....

One thing you hit on is that we can't account for every asshole 1st class petty officer and chief petty officer who filters out a request to go take care of family issues. Best we can do is to continue to put out that's not the standard so that the Sailors feel empowered enough to speak up when they meet resistance. But again, my experience has been that 'resistance' is almost always self imposed.
Again, not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand, but if it makes you feel any better ...

this is a trickier one as "resistance" is self-imposed because of "peer pressure",....

you see, if Sailor A requests to be left home for some personal issue and the wardroom lets him stay home then the "pressure" from everybody else (enlisted) who goes port and starboard or even 3 section is painful,....

we had a guy like that, and his wife was "buds" with the OMBUDSMAN and was even cozy with the XO's spouse,...

yep, and he was always putting in chits for schools, and other sundry needs, and we pretty much hated his ass,...

now you might say he was doing really well at taking of number one at the expense of a bunch of lunkheads who he was only going to know for maybe two years (at the most) in a twenty year career,...

until that day he radioed a log,...

and a certain MMC kinda knew he was doing it, and kinda didn't "coach" him on how that's an unacceptable habit, and pretty much set him up for mast, and reduction in rate, and loss of NEC, and loss of SS designator,...

and as a witness at his mast, I was observant at how not one enlisted person in his C of C had anything really positive to say, no one said anything really negative either, just nothing positive,....

and he was gone,....

you see, bunking before the mast, it's a different experience,...


the blueshirts don't hate it when the command notices a "problem" and the command steps in and imposes the scenario which causes the port and stbd yadda, yadda, yadda,...


but if the blueshirt initiates the "kinder, gentler" management approach, well, that's a different story,...


don't get me wrong, in scenarios of great duress even if the blueshirt does initiate the request and he gets turned down his buds will commiserate and protest they could have easily gone port and stbd for their shipmate,...


it's a tricky wicket to thread, those blueshirt sensibilities, I frankly understand why many careerists just give up and blurt out "We didn't issue you a family in your seabag!!!",....

1) I personally think it's a shame that the Navy doesn't have a program for enlisted Sailors to earn a bachelor's degree and stay enlisted.


2) NPS has residence master's programs for enlisted E-6 and above who have bachelor's degrees, although they are not well advertised.

understand I don't begrudge the USN Officer paradigm, it's part of the deal, when submarines skip their keel off the top of a submerged mountain that nobody ever knew was there it still falls on the CO (at least), and ofttimes it falls really hard,...


no E-5 in the engine room will be called to courts-martial for that bit of bad luck and endure a 16 to 20 year career tossed aside like yesterday's TDU cans,...


but yeah, the education thing, those Masters Programs and all the War College benefits really put the lie to "If you can go officer, why wouldn't you?!?!?!?!",....

You are wrong on the Fleet and Family support programs. They are open to everyone regardless of rank.

yep well, sometimes I'm wrong, not often, but sometimes,....

[scotoma]

Your most important task is to meet your Naval obligations slucessfully. Your most immediate task will to meet your family needs. Your fiancé/wife may say that she understands the demands of the Navy, but in her heart she may feel differently. You will have to be sensitive to her needs and still do your job effectively. It will require a lot of work and sacrifice.

[ipregen]

You won't be the first to do this or the last. Keep in mind that it is doable. Honest effort and holding yourself accountable to your family and what you signed up for will help you out. Keep your mind on the long term goals of successful completion of the program

[MGH]

Simple scenarios requires simple answers.

First, quit screwing around and marry her.

Second, quit looking for opinions.

Third, be a man and suck it up.

It won't be easy.

Keep a stiff upper lip and work and strive until you drop.

Go to nuke school.

Focus, focus, focus.

God bless you young man.

[spekkio]

It can get you a pink slip....but not a big chicken dinner....and it takes ALOT to get that pink slip at most places.  Our leading ELT was giving us day after duty at 1200 hours if all the work was done.  The Mdiv chief found out and "told on us".  So that stopped after a week.  Would have loved to be part of the Navy you are talking about....never saw it that good.

Yea, well, there are plenty of people I've encountered that I wish we could give a pink slip to, but couldn't. Especially at the E-6/E-7 level because we didn't follow the advice from NRTB Vol A and let them stick around past their maximum level of competence. Fun times when ISIC tells the CO that he can't DFC an LCPO even though there's a stack of paperwork 1" thick on him. The dirtbag junior enlisted Sailors who don't show up to work on time? Small potatoes man. Small potatoes.

Having said that, the amount of NJP cases I've seen come out of chronic lateness or general poor performance is big fat goose egg. Zero. Nada. Every NJP I've seen was a result of the Sailor/Chief/Officer breaking the law or violation of integrity. I don't deny there are COs who might be more fast and loose with this, but I haven't encountered one, and I think that submarine force senior leadership doesn't want COs using NJP for poor performance except as an extreme last resort when all lesser means have failed.

Anyway, it's not all rainbows and unicorns. Plenty of examples of poor leadership and management that can make people's lives miserable, like the one you just pointed out here and GLW's below.

Personally, this is what an Eng tour taught me about the topic at hand:

-Nuclear Chiefs (and 1st Class Petty Officers) are very technically competent, but universally need to be taught how to really lead and manage Sailors. They just don't have enough experience thanks to the fast-track promotion. The good ones pick it up quick (~6-12 mo), the bad ones never learn. If you have an EDMC or COB who can mentor the CPO quarters it's a godsend. I didn't. Unfortunately, it took me two years to figure this out and get good at it (by that I mean what techniques worked and what didn't as far as getting movement on priorities), and then the next new Eng who has to figure out how to keep his head above water comes in. But even then, things are received differently by the goat locker when they come from a MCPO than a LCDR, especially these types of topics.

-Nuclear Chiefs and DIVOs (the latter are usually not submarine qualified) are poor communicators to their Sailors. Frequent litmus test: put out a tasker (e.g, hey CRA we need that cooldown chemistry plan to get to the CO by Thursday), wait a watch (or day), then ask the LPO whether he has heard of it (hey LELT how we doing on that chemistry plan?). Far too often got a deer-in-headlights look. From the LELT/ELT perspective, he's being 'knee jerk tasked' by the Eng...but the tasker went out a day ago and died in the CRA's notebook. Another litmus test: if the LPO is going to officer/LPO call or night work meeting for the Chief and has to write something down that was covered the previous day. A 'fun' side effect of this phenomenon led to more than one occasion of me having to explain perfectly reasonable policies that my EDMC and I came up with (with CPO input) because a Sailor didn't understand what was going on and went straight to the CO instead of asking.

-"Slow is fast" is the worst expression to ever hit the Navy. This phrase gets hammered into nuclear Sailors' heads and they use it as a crutch to not be ready and as a result fail to move efficiently through evolutions. Time is a very valuable resource, and using more of it than we should need actually matters.

-Don't trust A-Gang (smilies and stuff).

The vast majority of the time, when there's a mismatch between policy and experience at the deckplate, the 'root cause' is poor leadership/management by the DIVO/LCPO/LPO. Unfortunately there's just not enough time in the day to watch over everything a bad LCPO/LPO might do to make his Sailors' lives tougher than it needs to be. If the MLPO came to me and 'told' on people going home day after duty at 1200, I'd ask him why he doesn't do that for his own division - at least for the guy who had the mid-watch. But I'd be lying to you if I told you that I had time to spend more than about 30 minutes walking the ER in-port before 1700, so nothing is stopping a guy like that from saying 'fuck that guy' and keeping everyone at work anyway (even worse if he blames the Eng for it). I thankfully never had that experience (in fact, my first MLCPO was able to cut his entire division out by 1300-1400 with all maintenance accomplished); I haven't encountered an LCPO who doesn't want to get his guys out as early as possible, and I've never encountered an Officer who gave a shit that an LCPO was cutting someone out early day-after-duty as long as the LCPO had a plan for how to get the high priority work done.

There are a lot of initiatives lately that focus on improving Sailor QOL, because over the decades we've learned that grinding people into the ground generally isn't good for retention. My last two COs had a hard stop that the work day will end at 1600, not 2000 as stated by the SORM/SOM. I don't think that's a coincidence; I think that's what the Navy is teaching at SCC/senior leadership courses.  And both of my COs and all 3 of my XOs were very sensitive to "CO suggestion box" comments. Yet when I would stand duty (all 1-2x a month), invariably someone would come to me at like 1540 to start maintenance. "This PM card says the maintenance takes 2 hours...you have CO's permission to work past 1600?" "Uh, uhm... no...my Chief told me to..." Those were fun conversations, especially since now I know that the JOs weren't enforcing the CO's policy when they stand SDO.

But if you're on a poor performing boat, life is going to suck. Lots of extra hours getting back up to speed. That old saying "if you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it again?" And if you have a bad chain of command, it can make your life tougher than it needs to be.

[spekkio]

I was 1980 to 1988,...

manning was tight,...

it's why a lot of us did five year sea tours,...and more,...

It's 2019, not the 1980s. Manning is not that tight, and there's a sea/shore flow that is relatively strictly enforced so that nukes can man critical training command billets. Point being, it's not a good practice to paint a picture for prospective nukes that no longer applies or exists based on your experience from 30-40 years ago.

the point is in CIVLANT you cannot be confined to base or a ship for playing hookie with work,...

a pink slip is as bad as it can get,...

and pink slips come really quick and easy and painless,...

the Navy equivalent of a pink slip is only rarely quick and easy and painless (if ever),...

consequences are not the same as pain in this point - counterpoint,...

Lots of this covered above, but a Sailor generally needs to do WAY more than it would take to get fired in a civilian job to get themselves busted in rank/on restriction. In fact, the only time I've ever seen that happen is for DUIs, drug use, or blatant integrity violations. Across 5 COs, I have never seen a Sailor to NJP and put on restriction for general poor performance or chronic lateness.

those who live before the mast have a much different Navy experience than the officers,...

including the little "extras" that make the married officer's experience very different from the married enlisted's,...

[provides example]

The experience isn't all that different. Just recognize that where it is different, it's largely due to the difference in perceived 'peer pressure' that you point out and the maturity of one's 'peers.'

I'd call the example you provided another example of poor management. What should have happened is the LCPO takes the Sailor aside and says "look, you've been milking this time off for family issues thing. Here's the list of things that meet the criteria of the MILPERSMAN for special lib/being left in port, here's the list of things that we'll cut you lose if ship's schedule/worklist supports, and here's the list of things that normal working adults are expected to realize aren't that important." He should also address this with the division. If he's an excellent LCPO, he'd recognize that this belongs in a command liberty instruction to set expectations for every Sailor in the command and not just his division, and would work run it by the COB then work with YNC to get it routed, but that's a Nirvana we'll never reach as a force.

Instead, according to your account, he allowed this problem to fester over a long period of time and then, when the Sailor made a poor decision, took the opportunity to jettison the Sailor. Pretty sad story.

But I digress; people who milk the system exist in officer and enlisted alike. If you have good leadership, they recognize it and put a stop to it without hanging the guy to dry at NJP.