Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]

[kerowhack]

As a recent graduate of the pipeline and a current fleet sailor, I think I might have a few observations that will be helpful. We all heard about the old days, and sailors who shot the gap, but right now we have a sailor on our boat who was a 2.6 student through all of the pipeline, and had a few other personal problems (underage drinking, speeding, drunk in public stuff), basically a guy who would've been totally written off as a loser and cut pretty quick, and he is the friggin man. He knows more than some of our chiefs, he has an amazing work ethic, and he is a great operator. He can do the dumb paperwork stuff, too, and pretty much is the goto guy for just about anything, but what it really comes down to is that if we ever had a serious casualty like a SLR or something, I would want him in my watch section. We also had a 2nd class who came to our boat, already had his fish, who got kicked off the Ohio and ended up here, and was a lazy piece of sh*t who knew absolutely nothing about anything and was about to be kicked for failure to qualify by his EDOM date, and ended up getting a psyche discharge. The old way, both of these guys would have been gone before they ever got anywhere near a boat, but I would rather have the first guy working with me even if it means putting up with the second guy for a few months, so maybe the standards are not too low.

[HydroDave63]

ok, so you make the call....by what criteria would you retain or drop nuclear engineering personnel?

[MMCIcebergDX]

Well, IMHO....

Let's see....

MM 'A' and Power school at Orlando
S-5G (I miss Idaho)
CVN-70 - 5 year sentance
MTS-626 - 3 year sentance
CVN-72 - 5 years sentance (and a lovely 10 month deployment... nothing like turning around 8 days from Pearl to go back to the gulf....)

Have the standards dropped?  HELL YES!  I am sure there are many that remembered people getting masted for being .1 hours short for hours, cheating, DWI, etc...  While I was teaching at Charleston we had a kid come through with a SEXUAL HARASSMENT MAST, 2 DWI's routinely 8 - 10 3 course failures, recomp failures, not to mention the lying (followed some students home when they were supposed to be doing plus hours, wrote them up, and they dropped the investigation because it was a EWS qualified staff instructors word against 3 non-quals.  There are no friggen standards at NPS and NPTU any more.  We used to joke that we could qualify a coffee cup as a nuke operator, if we could get it to say its name.  SIT's were "regrading" tests of students if they got less then a 2.60.  Students no longer on fixed hours, and if your nub was behind, you (the staff) was required to do extra hours.  I believe that the OLD standard needs to come back, integrity violations go away, academic problems go away, military problems go away.  I think that students do deserve an individual look, and I know that some of the academically challenged have made good nukes, and the staff can make the evaluation as to if a person should be retained, but the way it is right now, there is way more attention to QUANTITY, rather then Quality.  All I do know for certain is there are a lot of kids out there now, that would not have made it through 10 or 15 years ago, and that is a sad thing.

[JoeFlo]

I just Graduated NPS 2 weeks ago. I wasn't a very stong student (2.9). We had two guys that worked their butts off. One was a few points shy of the 3 course failure rule while the other failed comp. Both of which have graduated. Both of which also in my opinion deserve to be nukes. A 3rd individual had 13 exam failures (3 were below 2.0) but only 2 course failures. When our SLPO threatened to put him on phase one if he failed the next test he would magically score 3.6's. On one of the last exams he was 30 points shy from passing the course. The instructor took it upon himself to give him those points so he could pass. That same instuctor told him before the review to not put in for a regrade! Well we knew the student to be an earthsack so we reported the situation. The student is still pending mast (was also de-nuked) while the instructor is being investigated by the base JAG.

We as a class made a decision to do this. When spending that much time with other students you can figure out who is willing to be a hard worker. I am not saying the standards are fine the way they are...all I am saying is that the instuctors can't really determine who should stay and should go therefore should not give points to those people just so they can pass. Whats the point of having standards at all if numbers are going to be changed behind closed doors anyway!

[taterhead]

We as a class made a decision to do this. When spending that much time with other students you can figure out who is willing to be a hard worker. I am not saying the standards are fine the way they are...all I am saying is that the instuctors can't really determine who should stay and should go therefore should not give points to those people just so they can pass. 

Well, there is something to be said for having the "big picture" and not.  Students do not have the "big picture".  They haven't even sniffed at it yet.  Manning levels and the effect that manning has on the ships' ability to carry out the mission have to play into the equation, and that is usually transparent to a student. 

On the other hand, our class did the same sort of thing.  We had this one piece of crap guy who was exactly like the guy described above, except that he was cheating.  We all knew it.  So we conspired against him and our class leader turned him in.  Out he went.  Looks like this happens more often than not, and it is not an altogether unhealthy phenomenon.

[nukeET1]

As a former instructor at NNPTC for over 3 years I will tell you my opinion on the situation.


Pre-1996
1.  When most Navy nukes came through NNPTC (the ones the post here) the attrition rate was insanely high. (Our 'A' school class had 28 to start and only 3 made it through the entire pipeline including myself)  I believe the numbers were around 35-40 percent.
2.  Most instructors at the time really did not care what the students did/did not do.  There were quite a few that if you went to get help they would say "get the F$#K out of here we are talking about football etc etc." OR you needed a direct question that required little information from them.  There were exceptions, but not to many.  In order to pass you worked YOUR ass off and studied to make it through the program. Runtime was non-existant.  In prototype to get signitures it was a coke or candy or you could forget about it (well ok... not all the time) 
3.  If you were caught doing anything wrong in most cases (unless you were female or other then white male) you were booted from the program no questions asked.
4.  You failed Comp you were gone with very rare exceptions.
5.  You drank underage and were stupid enough to get caught..... forget it you are to dumb to be a nuke. (you have to be creative:)

Present day:
1.  The attrition has been driven super low (less the 6 percent including non-acedemic drops).  This was driven because the manning of the nuclear program down the road is insanely low.  There is a reason the bonus is 100k to reenlist and it is not because the Navy wants to pay you more money.  The manning for experienced operators out in the fleet has been and will continue to decline in the future.  They are trying to throw money at the problem and send more students, vice actually fixing the real problems.
2.  The instructors for the most part are forced to bend over backwards to help the students pass the exams.  Most divisions had people available for runtime during the day and at night during NDI (division dependent).  If a student is failing they are assigned to other instructors for more help.  If they fail more they are giving academic boards which they almost always pass.  If they fail the comp, almost an automatic recomp.
3.  The students for the most part worked hard.  I would say 80 percent worked hard, 10 percent required no work and 10 percent required more work then they were worth.  They would have failed within 3 weeks in the old program but now we are forced to hold their hands.  NFAS/NPS is usually the first time in their lives they are actually required to work in their lives and some students just can't/don't want to do this.
4.  The military aspect of the school has gone down significantly.  There is no fear of "getting talked to" by the chief or section leading petty officer (SLPO).  Even if they got sent to the Department Head there were many students that had no fear of that.  Going to mast almost became a joke to some students.  In reality, some of this is due to their upbringing, alot of this is due to the "touchy feelyness" instilled in the military.  We had students coming out of boot camp that would talk back, swear at instructors, and in general be very disrespectful. 
5.  Overall I believe the students coming out of the pipeline know as much, if not more then what we did when we went through the program.  The instructors put in the time and the exams are still equivalent.  I believe that integrity went out the window, the underage drinking problem never got solved, and the military aspect decreased significantly.  This has been shown/fedback to the command via sea-returnees complaining about the Nubs they received out in the fleet, not wanting to qualify or expecting to have their hand held the whole way.  They even had a few that showed up and when told to go look it up in the S+EPM they said the what?  They had no idea, since prototype has alot of stuff computerized.
6.  MMCIcebergDX was correct about standards.  The upper chain believe every person put into the program by the recruiters should pass. In an ideal world... maybe. In reality, no way in hell.  Some students are not required to even take the NFQT anymore.  I had one student that had a waiver for MATH and PHYSICS?   How can that be possible???  Anyone who fails math in 'A' school should have been an autodrop..... the math is very basic and taught the fundament of all nuclear programs... follow the procedure.. can't do that.."boot". There was one student who cheated on Comp. and was caught redhanded by the staff.  Went to mast, RIR, lost money, retained in program?  That is a loss of standards I do not care if the CO himself told all of us it was not. (not the current CO btw).

Worth it?

1. Absolutely 100% yes!  I would not be where I am today and making the money I do without the Navy Nuke program.  The experience you gain and contacts/friends you make are probably the best in the world.  Once you get out you will be amazed at the amount of ex-navy nukes there are and the job opportunities are limitless.  My advice: work hard, get your degree while you are in, don't bitch and moan at every little thing, work hard, listen to what your LPO/chief has to say (they might actually be right), say yes sir! when you really mean (F%$K off), and work hard!

EX-nukeet1

[Fermi2]

Well said nukeET1,

Hey didn't you end up at Oyster Creek? How's the Instant program going?

Mike

[shayne]

Well said Ex nukeet1.  More reasons why I departed the Navy.

I can think of many students that didn't deserve to pumped through the program during my staff tour at S8G.  One student, failed prototype final exam twice and was given a third.  This same individual was caught forging signatures, sleeping in the training area and head, and military bearing problems (uniform, shave, late for work).  He was given orders to a sub.  Eventually he was denuked, but not until after he couldn't arrive to the sub IAW his orders.  It was this very example that opened my eyes to the integrity of the program.

3. If you were caught doing anything wrong in most cases (unless you were female or other then white male) you were booted from the program no questions asked.

I never saw any of this type of discrimination during my Navy Career. 

[Roll Tide]

I thought so as well Shayne, but I didn't respond because I was in during a dip in females in the Nuke Navy. I saw some pretty blatant stuff that wasn't Nuke, but the Nuke program I was associated with was pretty consistent in dealings with women.

I saw some situations that were possibly race / ethnic discrimination, but not blatant. I can't be sure it wasn't just slight differences due to the individuals involved.

[shayne]

I'm certainly not saying it didn't happen in the Navy General, Just that I wasn't aware of any of this during my career and hardly ever in the Nuclear Navy. Which looking back now, I don't remember too many minorities.  Maybe I'm racial blind, see everyone as Nukes.

Most of the discrimination I saw was associated with work.  The harder you worked, the more work you got.  The better an operator you were, the more watches you had.  The better you were at troubleshooting, the more of it you did....

[nukeET1]

3.  If you were caught doing anything wrong in most cases (unless you were female or other then white male) you were booted from the program no questions asked.

I should probably elaborate.  In 1994/1995 when I went through the pipeline there were several cases that stuck out in my mind about discrimination of male/female.  We had one classmate who on the 8th week of NFAS decided on the weekend to go UA and underage drink.  He missed monday which was an exam (every monday was an exam it seemed like).  When he came back Tuesday the instructors and his LPO was furious.  He was written up on all the things he had been doing wrong, etc etc.  He never went to mast and never got in any trouble.  The instructor came back in to the classroom and told us students "The response the department master chief gave was "SN so and so is a fine young hispanic american just trying to do his job for his country".  Maintained in the program, ended up failing out anyhow.
The second case involved an ENTIRE class of people who never made it as Navy nukes.  The class decided on a Friday night to go out drinking with over/underage people in attendence.  There was one female at the party in particular hitting on all the guys.  She slept with one of them and then the next day he wanted nothing to do with her (she was UGGGGGLY).  Anyhow, she claimed rape come monday morning. HUGE investigation, all names named, all persons interviewed.  The whole class (minus 2 people) went to mast and was booted out of the nuke program.  One of the persons was not at the party and the other was this girl.  Turns out she was not raped, just claimed it because she was pissed.  Her punishment?
1. RIR
2. Loss of money
3. Restriction 45 days, xtra duty 45 days.
retained in program!!!  (unheard of in 1994 for lying, underage drinking, etc etc)

Broke restriction to go drinking and lied about it.
Mast again
1. RIR
2. Loss of money
3. Restriction and extra duty.
retained in program!!!!  The first time in history (2 masts as a student?)

Broke restriction again
FINALLY was going to get sent to CCU and booted outta the program.
"oh, I am going to kill myself" claims FN (not gonna say the name)
poof, out of the Navy.
24 students in MM 'A' school gone (rightfully so with underage drinking at the time)
3 masts later, one female student gone.

I believe back then there was pressure to get the first female nukes through the program and retention of them up to that point was poor. (note: perception is reality of course) (note: these cases above were two examples, whether the entire program at the time worked like that, I could not tell you.  I had heard other cases in prototype.... but I did not know first hand those cases)

Please note this is NOT what the program is like now by any means.  Right now there is NO discrimination male or female, black, white, purple, whatever.  The minute any type of discrimination is perceived or reported there is huge investigations.  The Navy has done a good job at stamping out such discrimination and rightfully so.

Right now, anyone going to NFAS receives more then their fair share of opportunities to succeed.

[s_Phoenix]

"Please note this is NOT what the program is like now by any means.  Right now there is NO discrimination male or female, black, white, purple, whatever.  The minute any type of discrimination is perceived or reported there is huge investigations.  The Navy has done a good job at stamping out such discrimination and rightfully so."

Sorry that is what its still like.  The navy and nukes never change.   Untill its way to late.  As the say goes, all the changes you see were written in the blood of a shipmate.

I've seen the dumbest female, not go to mast for sleeping with her chief, who was married.  Then not go to mast for sleeping with her DivO, who was also married.  Was dating another officer and was well know that he was married. 

The Nuke navy doesnt want to change.  If they can pass it off as working they will keep putting bandages on a gapeing wound.

[Roll Tide]

Before this gets too severe in bashing minorities or NNPTC in general, let's remember a little about standard management techniques. Major changes that can't be made before a crisis (because of opposition) are easily accomplished after a disaster. TMI meltdown and BFN fire were disasters that led to many positive changes in the commercial industry; USS Thresher and Tailhook Convention caused many positive changes in the Navy.

If things are as blatant as Phoenix perceives, it would be a good time for a letter to a Senator or Congressman! (Yeah, you have to run a chit through the chain of command to send a letter to your Senator or Congressman but your wife or parents don't!)

[shayne]

... you have to run a chit through the chain of command to send a letter to your Senator or Congressman but your wife or parents don't!)

Little confused on this. 

Is a chit required for each individual letter to your Congressman/Senator regardless of its nature
Or
Because of its nature being about the Navy?

[Roll Tide]

Just a blanket chit to inform the chain of command you will be corresponding with your elected representatives. Of course that is followed by interviews with everyone in the chain of command, which aren't to ask you not to do it......

Let your spouse or parent do it instead!

[nukeET1]

The chit being required to correspond to a Senator/Congressman was something required years ago.  I do not believe it is still required.  You could check with the legal department about such things.
As far as the comments s_phoenix made, that was a VERY true case.....

[taterhead]

A chit is not required to correspond with elected officials.

However, you are not allowed to correspond with elected officials in your official capacity without command approval.

Hence, sign your letter leaving off your rank, rate, etc.

[Fermi2]

Unless you are stating an official viewpoint for the Navy you are not required to have a chit approved to write your congressman.

Mike

[s_Phoenix]

Just had one of the better chiefs on my ship get s**t  canned by NRRO because they didnt like his answers during a level of knowledge.  More to the point a Q&A over why things are f#*&$d up on our ship.  Word is he spoke his mind.  The funny thing is he's PPWO and LDO selected.  So he will still be an officer just not a nuke. 

And people wonder why i'm just doing my 6 and out.  All anyone ever does in the navy is s**t on the guy under them.  Those that dont get s**t on twice as bad.

[taterhead]

Well, by getting out, you'll keep the multiple high for those who decide to stay in-

"Word on the street" is seldom 100% correct.  I am not arguing with you, but I have NEVER heard of someone getting fired (on the enlisted side) just for an answer on a LOK.

I heard that you guys were having some other issues...do you guys need me to come back and start giving out hugs again?

[CharlieRock]

Lots of things are screwed up in the Navy.  Lots of things are screwed up on the outside also.  Don't believe the hype that NRRO can get a chief de-nuked (especially a guy well thought of enough to  qualify PPWO and select for LDO).  No matter how much fear NRRO may inspire, their power is actually very limited.  If your chief got de-nuked it wasn't just his level of knowledge.  Does that mean he didn't get de-nuked for some other stupid reason? No.  But I can tell you from personal experience that NR values the truth.  They want to hear when something is screwed up BUT if you speak up you had better have facts to back it up - not just 'This sucks'. 

[shayne]

I'm certain that you don't have all the facts. 

[s_Phoenix]

Sorry but you wrong.  He told them at they Navy doesn't have enough leaders and that we need more like him.  Ones that are willing to stand up and try to fix whats wrong and not just keep doing things as is.

And He's right.  The Nuke Navy is going to hell.  They are more worried about number's than quality.  You can't hardly get kicked out.  They have lowed the standard from 2.8 of 4.0 to 2.5 and theres talk of lowering it to 2.0.  They will promote anyone to try to keep them in.  Right now the number of personel with more than 8 yrs in is 25% undermaned.  Surface rates are up to 40% at a number of years.  We dont hardly anyone returning to ship's after there first tour.  Everyone is getting out.  WHY, because there sick of being S**T on.

The Navy is going to lose a boat sooner than later do to a bad set of events.  Your going to reading about it and asking what went wrong and there will not be an easy answer.  As I said before "The Navy and Nukes never change.   Untill its way to late.  As the say goes, all the changes you see were written in the blood of a shipmate."

The training level is going down.  All they want to do is pump numbers out.  Not make well trained sailors.  The nuke program of old is gone.  And there is not going to be a change untill it is written in blood.

[nukeET1]

Just had one of the better chiefs on my ship get s**t  canned by NRRO because they didnt like his answers during a level of knowledge.

I am not sure who you are trying to kid, but it is not anyone who has had anything to do with the nuclear program.  NO chief would ever get de-nuked because of his answers during a LOK interview.  How would I know this?  I have a very good friend of mine that I worked with who was part of the NR team and did the inspections for 3 years.  He said the chief might have been reassigned instead of being an LPO of a division, maybe to other duties, but NEVER denuked.  In my 10 years in the Navy I saw two people denuked (other then students) and that was due to a BLATANT disregard to following procedures and one person for drugs.  Denuking someone takes an act of GOD (ie: paperwork submitted with exceptional circumstances and is reviewed by everyone.... then MAYBE you will be denuked).

I would guess the real circumstances involved ALOT more then you see.  One of the main problems the nuclear navy is facing is the LACK of leadership and accountability of those who you lead.  I always found 10 percent of the people you lead cause 90 percent of the trouble.

I am not sure what you are meaning about the 2.0 standard?  What tests/school are you talking about?


We dont hardly anyone returning to ship's after there first tour.

About the undermanning issues you are entirely correct.  They had just upped the reenlistment bonus to 100K for 5 years right before I got out.  The manning on shore and at sea is horrific and is going to get worse as time moves forward.  I knew of one guy who came from the BIG E and made ETC in under 6 years.  The ETCM  that I worked for in NFAS was on one of the boards and had said they made 4 chiefs that year that were not qualified EWS (PPWS for surface).

I will close this by agreeing with CharlieRock saying there is a lot of things screwed up in and out of the Navy.  The philosophy of the grass is like Augusta on all golf courses is not true (sorry the Masters is today).  The real question becomes
Are you part of the problem or part of the solution?
That is the question you have to ask everyday you go into work. (yes work, the Navy was never a game, like many people who were in/are in think it is).

Are you the person who consistantly does his/her job.  Do you exceed at the work and give it your 100 percent? Do you use your knowledge and ability to help those who show up that may or may not have all that level of knowledge?  Or do you allow yourself/co-workers to lead that person down the wrong path? 

No one joins an organization (Navy included) expecting to do a bad job, bad leadership leads to bad workmanship.

Thought for the day though...... If you have under 6 years, my guess would be you were in class 99 or 00 something.  The attrition rate was ONLY 10 percent maybe a bit more if I remember right.  The nuke program of old:
(when you showed up and the first thing I remember was a master chief saying "shake the persons hand next to you" and of course you did... he then said "That person probably will not make it through this program" and he was 100 percent correct.
Around 1997 an admiral came down to NNPTC Orlando and gave the imfamous speech about how things were going to change.... so you came in/through the program after the changes.

All they want to do is pump numbers out.  Not make well trained sailors.

Who makes the well trained sailors?  The training program?  The chiefs at sea?  The LPOs?  The COs?



The question I go back to if things are so broke....
Are you part of the problem or part of the solution?




Ex-Nukeet1

And Mike since I know you are going to ask.... the SRO class is going well   It is simply amazing how much BIGGER stuff is here and how many alarms there are!  I will say nuclear is and forever will be in my blood!


"mmmmm donuts"  Homer Simpson at the RPCP

[ex-SSN585]

In my 10 years in the Navy I saw two people denuked (other then students) and that was due to a BLATANT disregard to following procedures and one person for drugs.  Denuking someone takes an act of GOD (ie: paperwork submitted with exceptional circumstances and is reviewed by everyone.... then MAYBE you will be denuked).

I can't agree with this.  I was de-nuked after 14 years.  It was not a blatant disregard for procedures on my part and certainly not for drugs.  Prior to the incident, I had been on three boats, EDPO/EWS and LELT on each, had never been to mast and had never received a letter of reprimand.  If the CO decides to denuke you, I don't think the paperwork is extensive and no one is going to argue with him.  My lengthy, well documented appeal to the squadron commander was pretty much a rubber stamp of the COs decision.  Sorry not to discuss the actual circumstances right now.  Maybe sometime later, maybe not.  (I didn't even get reduction in rate.  My fine was something like $100 or $200 for two months.)  But everyone knew I dedicated everything to the job ...  no time away taking care of family business, minimal time for getting that college degree that everyone says is easily achievable ... yeah, I was a bit of a micromanager for spending evenings and weekends trying to make sure the paperwork was correct, but none of that counted.  (Sorry to get worked up, I'll stop now, since I'm just procrastinating from getting some homework done.)

My only point here is that I don't remember many others being denuked, but it certainly didn't take much to get rid of me.  I have seen what I considered to be much worse violations (such as red tag violations), but for whatever reason, the CO didn't consider denuking to be appropriate.