My illegal signing bonus

[kreliav]

Two days ago, I finally received my nuke contract. It contained a clause for a guaranteed enlistment bonus of $20,000 plus $7,000 for all the college credit I have. The total was $27,000. I signed it and went home happy even though it pushed my ship date back by four months, a very inconvenient stipulation for me inasmuch as I'm broke and unemployed right now because my original ship date was for October 5.

Today, I received a phone call from my recruiter saying that the signing bonus guaranteed in the contract is illegal. In the contract that he wants me to go in and sign tomorrow after the DEP meeting, there will be an enlistment bonus of $12,000 plus the $7,000 for college credits. $19K total.

I'm very open to the possibility that there's something I'm not seeing. Maybe I'm missing something. But I can't think of a single good reason why I should sign another contract. I like the first one. I want that one. If I had wanted to go back and change some stipulations in the contract after signing, I can't imagine the military would let me. Why should I let them?

On the other hand, I don't want anyone at MEPS or any of my recruiters to get in trouble or lose their job on my account. I would certainly sign the contract if that were a possibility. But I just don't know what the precise ramifications would be if I went in tomorrow and refused to sign.

Anyone have any advice?

[Mike McFarlin]

If you don't want to sign another one, then don't. And don't worry about someone losing their job, for they wouldnt fret one bit over you. My dad always said "to look out for #1, cause no one else will." He is right in a lot of ways. Good luck.

[HydroDave63]

If you don't want to sign another one, then don't. And don't worry about someone losing their job, for they wouldnt fret one bit over you. My dad always said "to look out for #1, cause no one else will." He right in a lot of ways. Good luck.

Exactly. Or tell them to either honor the first contract or void it all. They don't own you til the 2nd swear-in at MEPS.

[ChiefRocscooter]

They are right about not signing a new one, right away at least.  I think you need to get more info before you make any decisionon what to do.  First thing we ned to know is what do they mean by illegal? ? MEPS does not normally let people sign things that are illegal and they review the contracts before they left you dep in (they do it to protect the Govt not you , so they are very careful on the MEPS side with the legal stuff). As for the changed ship date that may be a factor with the bonus amount. When I recruited the buonus was staggered show that when you shipped you got more if you were farther from the JUN surge.  See every year we gets lots of new high school grads in May/Jun so bouns is lowest there but as year goes on bonus clicks up as incentive to get guys to go (this is of course not told to you when you DEP in as they want you to go when they need you not when you get most!!! Top bonus was usually Mar/Apr time frrame.
Anyway get more info on what is illegal and then repost I will e happy to try and help answer questions.
Rob

[kreliav]

I'd like to thank everyone for their input. I really appreciate it.

I went in today and the NC1 was not there. He was nominated for some 'Petty Officer of the Year Award' or something like that and wasn't in the office when I went in for the DEP meeting.

I asked one of the other recruiters who was vaguely familiar with my situation if the problem with the contract rendered it legally void. She said that it wasn't void until I signed the new papers. My outlook is basically that I would rather be a nuke with a $19K bonus than try to get greedy and blow my opportunity to be a nuke. So if the contract I signed on Monday with the $27K bonus is already void regardless of what I do, I would have gladly cut my losses and signed the new papers. But because the contract I signed the other day is apparently legally binding (assuming she told me correctly), then I'm still having trouble understanding why I should sign a new contract. I was told that NC1 should be in the office tomorrow, so I'll probably go in tomorrow and hopefully find out more details about the legal situation.

Unless there's something I'm missing, I'm inclined to take everyone's advice and refuse to sign anything.

And yes, my ship date was for April 17 (delayed from October 5 to January 11; now pushed to April), so that might account for the larger bonus. All I really know is that the Petty Officer down at MEPS messed up and gave me the wrong amount. Over the phone, I was told something about all this being 'illegal,' though I have no idea what act of Congress, Court ruling, or other legal regulation might be at issue. That's also something I plan to find out.

Anyway, thanks again for the input. I'll update as the situation develops. Comments are welcome.

[ChiefRocscooter]

Sounds like you are on right track, get info before you do anythiing!  If they ask you to sign new contract just hold off until it is all explained to your satisfaction.  After all you have months and months to get it expplained.  I would not sign anything they give you on the spot, ask for a copy and then take it home and read it (maybe put info on here and we can gove you our take on it too).  If the current contract is "illegal" then they should have no problem putting in writing for you what exactly is wrong with it.  After all you signed it and they signed it so they have to tell you (in detail) why they were wrong (get it in writing!!) You can make a big stink about how you fell you are getting the old bait and switch routine yada yada yada...  Do not worry about blowing your chance to be a nuke they need them plenty bad (see the fact they are paying you a bonus equal to a years pay for alot of people just to sign up!!!)  keep us informed and we will keep you straight!!

Rob
(and yes they are going to tell you your contract is legally binding on you so it should be on them, if they want to play that way.. you can use the term "good faith" when discussing how they would want you honor your part of deal , but they do not want to honor thiers!!!!)   

[kreliav]

As it was explained to me today, the bonus originally promised to me is an amount reserved for SEALs and other special operations ratings. I'm a nuke. So I'm entitled to $12,000, not $20,000.

That's perfectly fine with me. I'm not inclined to get into a huge legal mess demanding that they give me money that they promised to me by mistake and that I really don't deserve anyway. I didn't join the Navy for money. I can make money doing a lot of other things.

NC1 didn't ask for my signature, which surprised me a little, but I trust him, so I assumed it to be standard procedure. He handed me photocopies of my new contract, shook my hand, and I left reasonably satisfied. As for the legal issues, he claimed he never said the contract was 'illegal.'  That's not true. But again, I like NC1, and I'm inclined to think he just forgot what he said.

I got home and looked over the photocopies. They forged my signature. I know what my handwriting looks like, and that's not it.

I was thinking of going back into the recruiting office, pointing out the forgery, and telling them that I would be happy to sign the papers myself.

[M1Ark]

We all liked our recruiters until they lied to us.  NC1 is not a nuke and is not taking your best interest to heart.  You will be a nuke but you need to be a nuke with a $27000 bonus.  It has nothing to do with greed.  They won't shed a tear if you overlook something in your contract.

Besides, if you really want to be a nuke then you need to learn about integrity.  You have described potential improprieties going on at MEPS.  You need to bring it up to the proper authority.

NC1 is being overly nice to you right now because you have him by the gonads.  He really doesn't care that much about you.  You need to do the right thing.

[HydroDave63]

I got home and looked over the photocopies. They forged my signature. I know what my handwriting looks like, and that's not it.

I was thinking of going back into the recruiting office, pointing out the forgery, and telling them that I would be happy to sign the papers myself.

Forgery is a felony in all 50 states. You need to report that immediately. Even IF the presto-changeo works out for you, forged documents will hose someone else over. If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd get shore duty at Ft. Leavenworth.

Duty means having to do things that aren't fun sometimes,and not letting things slide.

[bigpapa]

To be a nuke you must possess sufficient knowledge to recognize the correct answer when shown.  All thye good advice that was presented seems to have been in vain. I have serious doubts about the probability of your success in the nuke field but please the the advice of HydroDave and M1Ark.

BP

[ChiefRocscooter]

Ok now you have found out the number 1 rule about NC's (the old if thier lips are moving then there is good chance they are lie'n like a dog!!)
They broke the rules not you, my suggestion to you is that you call the Recruiting Distict headquarters and ask to speak with the EPO (enlisted programs officer) explain the situation and tell them you do not want to be involved in anything illegal (which the NC1 just did) and ask them to have the "problem fixed!!"  as for the NC1 he stopped being a "good guy" when he forged your name! (without your permission)!! I was a RINC and a top recruiter (nuke recruiter of the year in fact, got the two foot high trophy to boot) and if I cuaght one of my recruiters pulling this kind sh*& I would kick thier a@@ around the block twice before I wrote them up!  This is trivial bullsh$% and there was no reason to jepordize your future because of his inconvience let alone putting the Navy in jepodary as well.  By this last part I mean what the hell (oops that one got by) is the Navy going to do if you grad program and ask for you $27,000 bonus (after you have the signed proper contract and can prove the other was forged!!
This is the kind of stuff that makes hard working fleet sailors on recruiting duty look bad! NC1 needs to get his butt kicked back to the fleet so he can do some time at sea and learn what the Navy is about, and I garuntee lying and forging are not part of it!!
Ok I am about to lift safties so I will stop now but you need to do the right thing!!
Rob

[KAMFRO]

You have to look at it also in a situation in the fleet.  If you are sitting RO, and an RO 2 watches later messes up on the logs and has to rewrite them, do you want him to forge your signature on those logs, making you liable for everything he wrote above your signature.  Same thing.  He forged your signature, and cheated you out of $8000.  If they screwed up, then thats their fault, and you benefit.  The contract you signed gives you a spot inthe nuke program at 27K.  If you made a mistake you know for damn sure they wouldnt let you make it ok.

[Finalman]

Yes, with $27K something is deffinatly wrong on there part. I asked every question I could at MEPS, how can I get a better bonus, what other people here know about my job, why does my shirt have to be tucked in right now?! NC1 is not your friend, I think i'm the only guy that has a recruiter that will actually sit down with you and talk bull at mcdonalds. My recruiter (which is at a different station now but in the same zone) constantly was wanting to take me around to places, even said to bring my girl if I ever wanted to, and all we did when we went out was shoot crap. But, I would certainly report the forgery ASAP, that's not something you leave untouched, my old manager did that on my time sheet at work, and I didn't come in early enough to sign it, that didn't last long. Report the forgery and forget the "new" contract. Lucky... I only got $12k with mine....

[Already Gone]

The opposite happened to me.  When I DEPped in, there was no bonus.  My ship date was a full year later.  Several months into DEP, they came out with a $2k bonus.  (Yeah, all of two thousand whole dollars, which wasn't payable until I finished A school or prototype or something)
Anyway, the recruiter called me and told me that the Navy wanted to make it fair by paying the same bonus to everyone who shipped at the same time.  So, they wrote me a new contract to include the bonus, drove me to Pittsburgh to sign the new contract and take the oath again, fed me lunch and brought me home.
The same recruiter advised me all along the entire process from the first paper I ever signed until I shipped that I could always put my right hand in my pocket instead of taking any oath if anyone ever changed anything that was promised to me.  Altoghether, I took the oath three times and he reminded me each time that the worst thing that could have happened to me was that the government would not be obligated to drive me back home from Pittsburgh if I refused to swear in.
You are (DEP or no DEP) a member of the United States Navy.  It is your duty to report any offense of which you are aware.  It is not up to you whether you report the forgery.  You are legally bound to report the offence.  PERIOD!!!!
Bonus or no bonus, innocent error or intentional fraud, ...  none of that matters right now.  Someone has committed a serious offence any may have done so to cover up another.  You owe it to yourself and every potential recruit who comes after you to get this fixed, no matter how ugly or unpleasant it may be.  Go do your duty.
Thank you for your decision to serve our country.

[seprintz]

I would not let this $h1t fly!!!

The forgery aside I think they are straight up telling you lies. I just am about to sign on for Nuke with a ship date in April of 2007 and I have a signing bonus of $20,000.00(for my job) + $7,000.00(for my college education). So there are $20,000.00 bonuses for Nukes. I do have to sign my contract "in a hurry" because the bonus is about to expire. I have seen the contract but can't sign it until the local NUKE Master Chief signs off and gives me the go ahead. My guess is they wrote up your contract when the bonus was in effect, but you may not have gotten into the office in time, and by the time you signed it the bonus had changed to $12,000.00. The line about the bonus being for special forces sounds like a lie too, because according to my recruiters (I take a lot of what they say sith a grain of salt) the current signing bonus for a SEAL is $40,000.00.

Let us know what happens, I think you should stick with the $20,000.00 bonus and stick to your story that the signatures are fake. From what I have seen at my recruiting office I would not put this behavior out of the realm of possibility. It is this sort of crap that is making me re-think joining the NAVY.

[seprintz]

Quick update, I just signed on with a signing bonus of 20,000 and a ship date of April 6 2007.

[PWHoppe]

Quick update, I just signed on with a signing bonus of 20,000 and a ship date of April 6 2007.

Congratulations

I wish you Fair winds and following seas... and Thank You for your service to our country

[ChiefRocscooter]

OK tell them you are there to replace me!  I get out 6APR07, it is the EAOS on my last contract of my 23+ year career!! (actually because of of retirement works I will transfer to fleet reserve on 31 Mar 07 but you will not learn of such things for many many years

Good Luck, and thank you for stepping up to serve and defend our county and way of life for those will not.

Rob

[BuddyThePug]

I wonder if the original poster took the recruiter's story, or did the right thing?

[deltarho]

I had many a student denuked for demonstrated unreliability when cheating on their homework---once!

That forgery is unacceptable!  He should have owned up to his mistake--typical sailor of the year behavior, as I see it.  They always prop up the ones who look good from the outside.

[HydroDave63]

so what ever came of this?

[longball4414]

I think the Navy hired a hitman

[rlbinc]

I hope he gets the whole $27,000.
Then the Navy will - in accordance with the unfortunate tradition - insert it one nickel at a time.

[kreliav]

I had really hoped that this topic would hurry up and die a quiet death without too many more comments, but that totally didn't happen.

I wasn't terribly anxious to reveal to everyone that after soliciting the advice of the regulars of the forum, which was then graciously given, I pretty much rejected all of it across the board. But that's exactly what I did.

You can get mad at me and tell me I have no sense of duty. That's okay. I used to be a flagrantly pro-war columnist for a very liberal university newspaper. Much worse things have been said about me before.

Anyway, I decided that NC1 was a scumbag who lied to me and, for whatever reason, cheated me out of $8,000. The "SEAL bonus" excuse was obviously a bunch of baloney. And yeah, if I had turned the documents over to the police, he would deserve everything he had coming. But for all that, I wasn't anxious to ruin his career and life. To do so just wouldn't be worth $8,000 of a signing bonus to me. And yeah, I hear the argument that I'm duty-obligated to report the incident in the interest of preventing future recruits from falling victim to similar occurrences. Point taken.

But the truth is I felt I needed to look out for my own interests too, and therefore, had to content myself with the thought that future forgery victims of NC1 are free to involve the police themselves if they so choose. Perhaps a future recruit will do the 'right thing.'

What I have not explained here is that I was instructed to lie to MEPS at a time when it had not yet occurred to me that recruiters and MEPS doctors can have different motives and work with different ends in mind. I therefore consented, thinking that Petty Officer X knows how things run at MEPS much better than I do, and I should just do what he says in order to save everyone a lot of tedious paperwork. So when the recruiter told me to proceed as though I had never seen a psychologist or taken medication, I said fine.

But having become a bit more privy during my time in DEP to all the recruiter-MEPS dynamics, I realized that I had made a mistake and supposing that NC1 probably knew that I had falsified information at MEPS (in retrospect, I don't think he did know), I decided I needed NC1's help and advice in order to correct this. We quite recently worked through it, and I declared the relevant medical documents to MEPS some time ago. I would imagine that if they planned to disqualify me on medical grounds that I would have known about it by now.

So anyway, that's my rationale for letting NC1 off the hook. If that's not good enough, I'll be more than happy to launch into a sappy philosophical discourse on the merits of justice vs. mercy.

But there is actually a final chapter to the narrative that readers will probably enjoy.

So anyway, I went back into the recruiting office, pointed out the forgery to a recruiter (NC1 wasn't in the office at the time), and offered to sign the documents myself. Recruiter had to call NC1 and discuss it with him.

"No, he'll sign it," I heard her say, in response to what I would like to think was a nervous question.

She was on the phone five minutes, and hung up to tell me that they had no way of finding out how the documents had become forged, inasmuch as the Petty Officer at MEPS who had drawn up the paperwork six days ago was now retired and could not be contacted! I laughed out loud.

"That's bizarre!" I exclaimed.
"No, no. These things happen you know," she told me casually with no trace of a smile.

She proceeded to carefully apply white out to the sections on which I had claimed forgeries, after which I signed them myself (only the two sheets relevant to the signing bonus had been forged; the other sections were identical to the same pages of the original contract and had obviously been photocopied with my signature already signed).

So, the conclusion is that I'm only getting a $19K bonus. But, you know, at least I took care of that whole 'lying to MEPS' issue.

Also, I'm living in an extra upstairs bedroom in my parents' house to minimize rent and food expenses. And I'm living off the miniscule remains of my student loans and whatever other money I've been able to scrape together doing various temp jobs. So I have something of a hard time seriously complaining for very long about $19,000.

[Rad Sponge]

What's your point?