Another Navy Nuke seeking advice.

[wirednuke83]

Hello all,

I am currently an EM1(SS) nuke type, I have approx 6 years in, I was a SPU.. and currently qualifying EWS. I have about a semester left on my degree which I intend to finish either before I get out, or directly afterwards. I have about 2 years left, and I'm starting to weigh out my options. I like to be prepared as I have a family to take care of. From the bit of research i've done thus far (reading on these forums and on the web) i'm starting to figure out that from this point on I am going to get diminishing returns on my time investment in the navy.

I am interested in entering the operational side of the house, and I understand I will probably do so as an equipment operator and work my way up.

So here's my question:

In your experience in the industry, would it be worthwhile to stay in for EOOW quals (basically staying in), or would that 3 or 4 years be better spent as an EO gaining senority?

I'm really starting to miss civilian life, and working in a nuclear plant has always been a dream of mine, but if staying in for a little more training will make a big difference i'll do it.

I appreciate your advice in advance,

a curious nuke

[Fermi2]

Answered about 36656767890 times.

[number41]

BZ is correct, this has been answered a lot of times, but he had enough time to make fun of you.  Apparently that is more important than trying to help out.  Anyway, I digress.

My opinion, since not too long ago I was making nearly the same decision as you:

1.)  Qualifying EOOW/EWS is good whether you stay or get out.  If you decide to stay in, it will help with your navy career.  If you decide to get out, it MAY make you eligible for SRO.  Either way you benefit from learning/qualifying more.  On top of that, reality is that most things that make you more competitive in the Nav will also make you more attractive to employers in the civilian world.  So, learn & qualify as much as possible.  It MAY not get you anything in the long run, but it definitely won't if you don't bother to try.

2.) Your detailer probably will try to tell you the same thing, so don't automatically discount what I'm going to tell you.  You've done the time at sea, and by virtue of the fact that you were a SPU, you are eligible to go to prototype for sure, maybe A-school or Power School.  Any of those gigs beats West-Pac and 3 section duty.  A shore tour (of any type) can be worth your time.  Being on shore duty definitely can free-up some time to look for civilian jobs, go to college, and offer advanced opportunities such as EOOW or LPO tours.  It may be difficult to decide to stay in if you've already got your heart set on getting out, but there are some definite pluses to staying in for a shore tour.

Either way, good luck.  PM if you need more info but don't want to get flamed.

[JustinHEMI05]

To answer your questions about worth staying in to try to qualify EOOW;

No it is not, IMO. As long as you have that 2 years of EWS when you get you, you can qualify to be an instant SRO candidate. Otherwise, you can qualify to be an NLO candidate. Both paths are just fine. Doing more time to get another qual, is not worth it. You will make more money if you just get out at EAOS, even if you start as an NLO... WHICH... there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

So that is my recommendation; get out at EAOS and don't reenlist to get more unnecessary quals or unnecessary experience.

[co60slr]

BZ is correct, this has been answered a lot of times, but he had enough time to make fun of you. 

Is that the purpose of Nukeworker.com...to make fun of active-duty Navy Sailors with serious questions about getting out of the Navy?

How much time/experience does one need in this Forum before one should start making fun of people?  I won't do it...but I'm curious as to what the "unwritten rules" are on this matter.

Co60

[Gamecock]

Is that the purpose of Nukeworker.com...to make fun of active-duty Navy Sailors with serious questions about getting out of the Navy?

How much time/experience does one need in this Forum before one should start making fun of people?  I won't do it...but I'm curious as to what the "unwritten rules" are on this matter.

Co60

There are no unwritten rules.  The forum rules are here....

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,4700.0.html

Nukeworker exists to help people.

This includes people who use poor spelling and grammar as well as people who ask questions that have been asked many times before. 

So, with that being said, I will delete posts that are less then helpful and offer no advice.

Bottom line....if you don't like someone's question or the way they ask it....then don't respond.

-or-

As my mom used to say....if you can't say something nice, then don't saying anything at all.

Cheers,
GC

[Marlin]

As my mom used to say....if you can't say something nice, then don't saying anything at all.

Cheers,
GC

Nukeworkers Rules...

Marlin's Rules...

and now...

Mom's rules!!!


In general Mom's rule 

[DDMurray]

Recently received this at work and thought how it may apply here.

Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2010 7:15:11 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Brand Strategy Feedback

Prof. Galloway,

I would like to discuss a matter with you that bothered me. Yesterday evening I entered your 6pm Brand Strategy class approximately 1 hour late. As I entered the room, you quickly dismissed me, saying that I would need to leave and come back to the next class. After speaking with several students who are taking your class, they explained that you have a policy stating that students who arrive more than 15 minutes late will not be admitted to class.

As of yesterday evening, I was interested in three different Monday night classes that all occurred simultaneously. In order to decide which class to select, my plan for the evening was to sample all three and see which one I like most. Since I had never taken your class, I was unaware of your class policy. I was disappointed that you dismissed me from class considering (1) there is no way I could have been aware of your policy and (2) considering that it was the first day of evening classes and I arrived 1 hour late (not a few minutes), it was more probable that my tardiness was due to my desire to sample different classes rather than sheer complacency.

I have already registered for another class but I just wanted to be open and provide my opinion on the matter.

Regards,
xxxx

—
xxxx
MBA 2010 Candidate
NYU Stern School of Business
xxxx.nyu.edu
xxx-xxx-xxxx

The Reply:

—— Forwarded Message ——-
From: scott@XXX
To: "xxxx"
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2010 9:34:02 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: Brand Strategy Feedback

xxxx:

Thanks for the feedback. I, too, would like to offer some feedback.

Just so I've got this straight...you started in one class, left 15-20 minutes into it (stood up, walked out mid-lecture), went to another class (walked in 20 minutes late), left that class (again, presumably, in the middle of the lecture), and then came to my class. At that point (walking in an hour late) I asked you to come to the next class which "bothered" you.

Correct?

You state that, having not taken my class, it would be impossible to know our policy of not allowing people to walk in an hour late. Most risk analysis offers that in the face of substantial uncertainty, you opt for the more conservative path or hedge your bet (e.g., do not show up an hour late until you know the professor has an explicit policy for tolerating disrespectful behavior, check with the TA before class, etc.). I hope the lottery winner that is your recently crowned Monday evening Professor is teaching Judgement and Decision Making or Critical Thinking.

In addition, your logic effectively means you cannot be held accountable for any code of conduct before taking a class. For the record, we also have no stated policy against bursting into show tunes in the middle of class, urinating on desks or taking that revolutionary hair removal system for a spin. However, xxxx, there is a baseline level of decorum (i.e., manners) that we expect of grown men and women who the admissions department have deemed tomorrow's business leaders.

xxxx, let me be more serious for a moment. I do not know you, will not know you and have no real affinity or animosity for you. You are an anonymous student who is now regretting the send button on his laptop. It's with this context I hope you register pause...REAL pause xxxx and take to heart what I am about to tell you:

xxxx, get your s#!t together.

Getting a good job, working long hours, keeping your skills relevant, navigating the politics of an organization, finding a live/work balance...these are all really hard, xxxx. In contrast, respecting institutions, having manners, demonstrating a level of humility...these are all (relatively) easy. Get the easy stuff right xxxx. In and of themselves they will not make you successful. However, not possessing them will hold you back and you will not achieve your potential which, by virtue of you being admitted to Stern, you must have in spades. It's not too late xxxx...

Again, thanks for the feedback.

Professor Galloway

[Fermi2]

I don't recall making fun of anyone. I merely pointed out in our industry if you want to succeed you best learn how to research and figure out as many answers as you can on your own. As many have stated this is a fantastic forum for information. Much of the information he seeks has been covered many times over. Dictionaries are wonderful resources too, but they require the individual to actually open them.

Anyone who has worked for me will tell you if someone comes up to me and asks what should we do the first question I ask is give me the options. If they don't give options I tell them please go figure out the options. Once I get the options I ask where did you get this info? If they can't tell me, go back to square one. Then I ask what do you recommend? If they don't have a recommendation go back to square one. As part of what they recommend they best have a good reason why. If not, go back to square one. Anyone wanna bet at how many people are repeat offenders? Anyone wanna bet on how years later these very same people thank me for being so hard on them during their initial contacts with me?

See what I mean? If the member wants to become successful they need to learn to stand on their feet from day one.

I'd also encourage new members to watch what and whose advice they take. Getting advice from an Operator in an initial training program isn't advice at all. It's conjecture. They haven't succeeded in anything yet. They can tell you how they study, they can tell you how to arrange your time, but until they have an actual license in their hand any other advice isn't worth jack you know what. I've seen all kinds of 92 averages turn into 78's on NRC test day and I've seen all sorts of simulator hot shots go down in Did Not Meet Critical Task Flames when the real show happens.

DD Loved your posts. How is training going?

Mike

[DDMurray]

DD Loved your posts. How is training going?

Mike

I'm in Systems, week 12 of 14.  I find it very challenging.  Even though I scored my highest grade last week, I feel on any given exam I could tube it as you discussed above.  It is easy to see why DSROs are frowned upon by so many.  Probably the hardest thing is the sheer volume of material, with questions dealing with minutiae being as prevalent as key concepts on exams.  Throw in a few Tech Spec questions whose bases is alluded to in the Bases/Systems Description/FSAR and you have a chance to fail any given exam.  One of the mottos of our Training Department is, "The more you know, the more you know."  That pretty much sums it up.

Derek

[Fermi2]

True statement.

I'll give you some study tips.

1: Read the material.

2: Read the print, every time you get to a MOV, AOV, SOV or motor read the schematic.

3: Find all the SI's for the system. You have no idea how many times I've remembered an interlock, permissive or set point because I read the SI.

4: Read the FSAR for the system.

5: Of course read the TS including the Basis then go back to the FSAR and see how what it says matches the Basis.

It might seem like a lot but in the end it saves you study time.

When you reach AOP's let me know.

Mike

[JustinHEMI05]

Good tips. Knowing the prints will save you in the middle of a simulator scenario when that valve breaks. You will stand there looking like a fool if you don't heed his advice about hitting the prints. I have to admit, I didn't hit the prints as much as I should have and I have had some foolish moments. 

[Fermi2]

I recommended the FSAR since from a basics standpoint you have to know the design basis of a system. Also, every now and then an FSAR question pops up on an exam and I hate giving up points.

Prints, especially schematics are my saviours. More than once I've had people say damn Bru how the hell did you know that? And I'll say I read the schematic. BTW I'm bigger on schematics than logic diagrams mostly because in the BWR world schematics are hugely important due to the multitude of logic systems. In the Westinghouse PWR world it's all SSPS and you don't even have access to the logic prints.

Also, I've yet to see anyone ever tag a relay or a solenoid from a logic print. So it's more practical. I have Zero use for an SRO or RO who cannot read an electrical schematic.

Hint for you Navy T Ballers. Most of you cannot read a schematic or wiring diagram worth a crap. That includes the EMs. Get either a book and learn how to do so, or take a course at a community college. Most of the T Ballers get behind early because they're trying to learn to read schematics at the same time they're in SRO training. Some of the valves and pumps have schematics that have literally dozens of permissives and interlocks, which all have prints of their own. If you aren't at least semi proficient in electrical print reading you are screwed. Simply knowing LVP, LVR, LVRE isn't enough in the big leagues. I've seen more guys get gummed up on NRC followup questions because they try to answer from memory rather than use a print that I can tell you, it's simply not worth it. Why add self inflicted frustration to an already high stress week?

Mike

Mike

[Nuclear NASCAR]

Piling on I know, but I've seen the results of Mike's suggestions first hand.  We have a shift manager who used to work w/Mike observe a 4160 breaker swap with us one day.  Just a simple Ops racked it down, electrical set up the swapped breaker similar to the removed breaker, and Ops racks in the swapped breaker type of routine evolution. 

He took the time to give the related print a look over prior to meeting us down there so when we pulled the print from the work package he was right there on the same page with us and all concerns were mutual and addressed.  A knowledgeable Ops person, NLO right up through SRO, will keep everyone looking great and the plant on-line and safe. 

Keep up the good mentoring Mike!

[JustinHEMI05]

Ugg yes, his last paragraph is right on. When they threw the stack of prints in front of me and said "hit it," I almost threw up. Painfully, I am getting better at them. I wish I had some practice coming in.

[crusemm]

Hint for you Navy T Ballers. Most of you cannot read a schematic or wiring diagram worth a crap. That includes the EMs. Get either a book and learn how to do so, or take a course at a community college. Most of the T Ballers get behind early because they're trying to learn to read schematics at the same time they're in SRO training.
Mike

Do you have specific book to recommend for learning this skill?  I am trying my best to study as much stuff as I can as fast as I can, and all the resources I can get hold of would help.
Thanks for the help
-Matt

[Fermi2]

The Navy had a Blueprint Reading and Sketching Book.

I'm certain the Navy still offers NEETs. (Prior to getting out I took the entire NEETs series)

http://www.amazon.com/Schematic-Diagrams-Richard-Johnson/dp/0790610590/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268117682&sr=1-2


http://www.amazon.com/Beginners-Reading-Schematics-Robert-Traister/dp/0830676325/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268117682&sr=1-1


http://www.amazon.com/Electricity-Electronics-Introduction-Electrical-172-04-00-85/dp/B000H000I0/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268117801&sr=1-3


The last is extremely basic. Don't buy it. If you want it I can transfer the file to you via msn if you want. In fact I'll file transfer and text I have.

[Fermi2]

I just looked and I have the Blueprint Reading And Sketching on PDF.

ALSO and entire folder full of BWR theory and a folder of an entire series of Texts for a real live Operating BWR. I'd be glad to file transfer them too.

[wirednuke83]

Firstly, I apologize for posting the same crap yet again. I did read up a little bit, and I saw a few other post made by fellow nukes, but I still wanted to post my own version of the story and introduce myself to the community. Apparently that was a mistake.

Enough of my lame excuses :-)....

I'm not sure how your blueprints and drawings compare in complexity to what I'm used to working with in the navy, but I have 2 or 3 years of electrical engineering college before I joined the navy, and it has helped me considerably with schematics and the like. Regardless, I would be interested in looking at the documentation you are willing to provide. It will make me better at the job i'm doing now as well.

Is there any other suggested reading, so maybe I can graduate from T-baller to little league by the time I look for a job?

[Fermi2]

I haven't met too many EE's who can read schematics all that well either.

[DDMurray]

I recommended the FSAR since from a basics standpoint you have to know the design basis of a system. Also, every now and then an FSAR question pops up on an exam and I hate giving up points.

Prints, especially schematics are my saviours. More than once I've had people say damn Bru how the hell did you know that? And I'll say I read the schematic. BTW I'm bigger on schematics than logic diagrams mostly because in the BWR world schematics are hugely important due to the multitude of logic systems. In the Westinghouse PWR world it's all SSPS and you don't even have access to the logic prints.

Also, I've yet to see anyone ever tag a relay or a solenoid from a logic print. So it's more practical. I have Zero use for an SRO or RO who cannot read an electrical schematic.

Hint for you Navy T Ballers. Most of you cannot read a schematic or wiring diagram worth a crap. That includes the EMs. Get either a book and learn how to do so, or take a course at a community college. Most of the T Ballers get behind early because they're trying to learn to read schematics at the same time they're in SRO training. Some of the valves and pumps have schematics that have literally dozens of permissives and interlocks, which all have prints of their own. If you aren't at least semi proficient in electrical print reading you are screwed. Simply knowing LVP, LVR, LVRE isn't enough in the big leagues. I've seen more guys get gummed up on NRC followup questions because they try to answer from memory rather than use a print that I can tell you, it's simply not worth it. Why add self inflicted frustration to an already high stress week?

Mike

Mike

Thanks Mike, though I'd prefer to be called "Coach-pitch'd" over T-Baller.  I have been here over a year now.

[Fermi2]

I'll do better than that if you pass your systems comp. I'll put you on Junior College Varsity

Mikey

[HydroDave63]

I just looked and I have the Blueprint Reading And Sketching on PDF.

ALSO and entire folder full of BWR theory and a folder of an entire series of Texts for a real live Operating BWR. I'd be glad to file transfer them too.

If they aren't too large, I'd like to have a peek at them!

Dave

[Fermi2]

Ok, it's easiest if I just file transfer on MSN Instant Messenger.

Mike

[wirednuke83]

I haven't met too many EE's who can read schematics all that well either.

Alrighty, I'm a t-balling retard. :-P One thing I do have though is an exceptional work ethic. Perhaps some day I'll be able to prove that to you. My family is also from the detroit area, and I have always wanted to work at the fermi plant... ;-)

If the navy has given me anything... it was an introduction to a field I have come to be very passionate about. I am one of those people that enjoy reading about nuclear power on my own free time. I won't be a t-baller for long.. i assure you of that.

P.S. Can I do the file transfer too?