Current level of NUPOC competitiveness

[JustinHEMI05]

I was talking with my father and he was telling me that they normally hire navy guys for NLO positions and while they do sometimes hire Chem E's they usually don't due to their lack of knowledge in the nuclear field to start with. If this is the case what could I do to help make myself more competitive without going through enlistment

Again, it varies utility to utility, but 2 of the biggest utilities try to make a good mix of people in the class. Navy nukes don't necessarily a good operator make, neither does having a degree and no experience make one a bad operator.

As far as your other question, if you take the ops path, the sky is the limit. If you want to be a VP, you will need to get an SRO license at one point. Your success though, rests solely on your shoulders. In most other departments, there will usually be a ceiling, which you can break through, but you have to be mighty special to do that. To be frank, having a BS in chem E doesn't make you special. That isn't meant as an insult, its just the truth. There are phD's walking around most nuke plants. Additionally, if moving to the executive level is what you desire, then yes, an MBA would be helpful. However, I do know VPs that are VPs based solely on having an SRO license and their performance there in. It really isn't predictable.

[ChemicalEngineer24]

Thanks a lot Justin. I will look into NLO positions do you know of any other types of entry level positions that I might qualify for other than NLO just as a back up? I really appreciate your help thanks again

[JustinHEMI05]

You could look at some maintenance superviser type of positions, and of course engineering. For maintenance though, they are usually going to want some kind of experience, but not always. I know a maintenance sup here at BV that is 25 or 26 years old and was hired right out of college. HAHA I realize that my answers are pretty much "it depends," but as you see, that really is the case. All you can do is apply and submit a strong resume and hope for the best. If you are lucky, the needs of the plant and your needs will align and you will get hired.

[cheme09]

The thing is while I enjoy all that I have done while learning Chemical Engineering I have always been drawn to nuclear power mainly because my father is a operator at Columbia Generating Station in Washington. What would be a more realistic way to get into nuclear power then if NUPOC is not a option

Come on, man.  If you're going to claim that you're ChemE degree is one of the hardest engineering degrees (and I stand by that belief as I too have one) then at least do some research and try not to make yourself look so ignorant.  You've been given great advice here from plenty of people.

As a chemical engineer, you should know that we are just as well equipped, if not better, as MechE's in doing fluids, thermo, and heat transfer calcs, including valve sizing and heat exchanger design.  And guess what there are a lot of in a nuke plant?  Although most plants will favor MechE's for these types of jobs, you are just as qualified for such a position. 

Why do you think going back to school for a MS will not benefit you?  Has more education really ever been a bad idea?  If you really want to get into the nuke field and are finding trouble trying to leverage your skills as a ChemE, how about going back for maybe a MS in Nuclear Engineer?

While the most obvious option for a Nuclear Engineering grad would be to work for a utility, it is not the only place these engineers can work.  The education obtained from such a degree is useful in working with one of the many national labs, companies that build reactor components, companies involved in the enrichment of fuel, decommissioning organizations, oversight organizations, regulatory organizations, etc.  The education can also give you a foundation for radiation shielding, health physics, detection, and the like.

NUPOC is only one way to get into the field.  I was in a similar situation as you in that my application to NUPOC was not as strong as it should be.  I decided to get a MS in Nuclear Engineering and am finishing up at the end of the year.  I will submit one last application before I graduate and if I still don't get in, then I know I have a lot of options still open to me both in and out of the nuclear field bc of the diversity of my degrees and internships.

We can't do anything about our GPAs.  The only thing we can do is keep trying for every option open to us and working hard so that we can put more positive things on our record - the reality is that after a few years in the industry, nobody will look at our GPAs anymore.

I too was under the impression that ChemEs were the highest paid starting salaries.  But after looking into it, I found that Nuclear Engineers get more.  It doesn't matter though, its not all about the money.  As JustinHEMI pointed out before, NLOs can make as much or more than entry level engineers and they education requirements for them don't include a college degree.

Take a closer look into the nuclear field and find out what it is you really want to do, then go for it.  Best of luck to you.

Lastly, this week is Engineers Week.  You might be able to find some type of networking opportunities/events around your area.  I suggest going and making some connections.  Try looking up your local ANS section or AIChE chapter (also note there is a nuclear engineering division within AIChE).

[ski2313]

I was talking with my father and he was telling me that they normally hire navy guys for NLO positions and while they do sometimes hire Chem E's they usually don't due to their lack of knowledge in the nuclear field to start with. If this is the case what could I do to help make myself more competitive without going through enlistment

Just some insight as to how I got in as an NLO/AO:

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,26776.0.html

I have no degree (other than an AAS equivalent), no operations experience, and spent 8 years in an un-related field (financial). However, I was given the opportunity to take a nuclear fundamentals exam (as well as the POSS) and aced them both. I studied the material on my own time for nearly 2 years to be able to pass that test. Finding a utility that requires fundamentals testing prior to an interview might be your ticket in since you are not a "Navy Nuke". Only 8 people out of 30 who took both tests actually passed, and we were all given job offers. That was my ticket in, as was a very sincere desire to pursue the career path (which I made abundantly clear in the interview).

Do a google search for "DOE fundamentals" + each of the following:

Mathematics
Chemistry
Nuclear Physics & Reactor Theory
Thermodynamics
Classical Physics
Instrument & Control
Engineering Prints & Diagrams
Mechanical Science
Material Science
Electrical Science


Also, it is helpful to learn/know the NRC exam format if you need to test prior to an interview.. The exam banks are also great learning tools:

http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operator-licensing/generic-fundamentals-examinations/pwr.html

Or, for a BWR (like Columbia)

http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operator-licensing/generic-fundamentals-examinations/bwr.html

Hope that helps.

-ski

[ChemicalEngineer24]

Hey Chem I have been thinking about going back for my MS the only reason I said not for Chem E is because from what professors and people in the industry have already told me most of the jobs you will get with a MS you can do with a BS so there isnt really much of a difference in opportunity. I have been thinking about nuclear engineering however how big was the transition to going for you MS in nuclear and did you need to take any refresher courses or do nuclear engineers and chemical engineers have a similar track towards degrees? Also if I had good GRE scores and good letters of recommendation would I still be able to get into a decent masters program for nuclear engineering with my 2.93? Thanks again for all the help and I understand where we would be useful in a plant especially in pipe fitting and optimization and heat transfer and thermo calcs in BWR.

[cheme09]

My stance on engineering degrees is that getting an MS in the same field as your BS is useless unless you want to go into research or academia in which case you'll want to go for the PhD.  But utilizing an MS is a good tool for gaining exposure and credentials in a field different than your BS.

I firmly believe that a BS in chemical engineering is the hardest undergraduate degree and will prepare you for any other engineering out there - if you can get a ChemE degree you can get a nuclear one.  As far as the transition, I went straight into it from undergrad so no refresher courses were needed.  The only one I can imagine you needing is maybe an advance engineering math (adv diff. eq.) and/or modern physics.

Being a non-nuke BS student, if you get into a program, you'll take some type of intro to nuclear engineering course where you'll receive your foundation knowledge (atomic physics, cross sections, the nuclear interactions, etc).  Everything will stem from that.  When you get to reactor theory (neutronics or nuclear physics, whatever it's called in your program) you'll find a lot of parallels between neutron transport and the kinds of transport taught in chemical engineering.  After that, I found each class to be somewhat specialized, and the only prerequisite knowledge needed are your neutronics and intro class.  These classes do assume you know your heat transfer and thermodynamics (think steam tables and power cycles, not fugacity and the like), though.

I didn't look too much into how many graduate nuclear engineering programs are out there, but I imagine if a school is offering a graduate degree in nuclear engineering, then it has to be somewhat reputable.  You'll learn the same stuff no matter where you go - the 4 factor formula I learned is the same 4 factor formula any other nuclear engineer learned.  The only difference you'll find with different grad schools is the area of research their faculty partakes in, and some schools have research reactors.

If you do well on your GREs and have good recommendations, then it is very possible to get in.  Like I said, my GPA was close to your (a little lower actually), so I know of at least one school you'll get into.  BTW in looking at GRE scores, engineering programs weigh heavily on math more so than verbal.  For math, you'll want to shoot for at the very least 720 to be competitive.

Grad school is just an option though.  There are other ways like ops to get into nuclear that don't require it.  But if you decide grad school is for you and want to know about my program, send me a PM.  I'd be happy to talk to you about it.  Good luck.

[thenuttyneutron]

Thanks Justin I really am sorry for my jumping attitude its a culmination of lack of sleep due to constant wisdom teeth pain. Ill be so relieved when I get them pulled tomorrow. What is the current pay for a NLO? Ill also ask my father since he is a instructor at the plant.

This has taken a big turn.  If you are considering not going the Navy Nuke route and want to get in the civilian side of nukes instead, pay close attention.

I have seen both worlds (getting the degree and working as an operator).  The degree will only get you in the door for an interview.  Once hired, you will learn or be taught everything that you need to know to do your job.  That is what the qualification process is for.  Your performance will also be the factor that moves you ahead and not what is on your diploma.

I earned a B.S. in Nuclear Engineering and then hired in as a NLO.  I think that this was a very good move for me.  I am now a Licensed Operator.  I learn new stuff everyday.  With the huge retirement tsunami coming down the road in the next few years, there should be plenty of jobs.  The only chance at getting any of these jobs is having the correct combination of education and experience. 

Add now to the end of this quote: A LOT of luck because the competition for these good jobs is getting fiercer by the day.

I quote myself because I think it is now relevant to how this topic is starting to go.  The BS engineering degree will probably get you an interview.  If you can pass the POSS & what ever else they test you on and do well on the interview, you may have a shot at landing a job as an operator.  They may have engineering jobs open too, but there are many openings for the NLO postings.  Do you want to compete for just 1 engineering slot or one of the many slots they are trying to fill in the OPS pipeline?  There are no second prizes for coming in second here.  You can share one of the first place ribbons of a NLO job with the others hired to fill the job requisition.

Entertaining whether an additional degree will give you a better chance at getting into a utility is questionable.  I also think comparing the different engineering disciplines in difficulty to obtain is at best an exercise in academic masturbation.  In the end people won't care about your degree and how smart you are.  They will only care about how you can perform on the job.

I leave you with another bit of advice that I made a long time ago to another person getting an AS degree.  You will be competing with these people for the OPS jobs.  No matter how much shinier & better your degree is compared to them, if they pass the tests and you don't, it won't matter.  It won't matter that they only have an AS and that you have a BS, MS, or PHD because they will have the job and you won't.

This economy is hurting many people.  I just turned 30 and got in the nuke field about 5 years ago when it was not so popular.  It seems like many people fresh out of school with engineering degrees are making their way to the nukes after getting out of school.  Many I bet have a lot of student loan debt.  I have no doubt that many of you are capable of being nuke workers.  The thing that is going to hurt you the most is the huge competition for these jobs and the large number of people applying for them.  I am not sure I would have been successful getting in if I were starting fresh today out of school.

I feel bad for all of you.  Don't give up and keep looking.  The utilities hire large groups of people for OPS all at once.  If you miss that window, you miss your shot for a long time.  Get up to speed on the POSS test.  The POSS is unlike anything you have ever seen before.  That is the first hurdle that you must get through.  If you don't pass it, you won't get an offer.  Get in anyway you can with any job.  You can then look to move within the organization later when things get better.

Tips for interview.

1) Dress as well as you can.  There was a large group of people at my interview/test.  Only 2 got in out of my group.  We both had on a full suit and tie.

2) Prepare as well as you can for the POSS.  Search this site for my posts on how to do as best as you can on it.

3) Have humility.

4) Don't get discouraged.

Good luck to all of you.

With all this said, I do think people with engineering degrees can make good operators with the right attitude.  Forget trying to be a DSRO because you will not qualify.  If you do start as a NLO and work up from there, you could end up with that SRO license.  Get some humility if you do get a job offer.  There are many smart people working at the power reactors.

Take this advice and use it however you like.  I know that I have been a bit rough here, but I am not going to sugar coat the subject.  The BS degree will you in the door for an interview and that is it.  I have never performed detailed neutron diffusion/transport theory calculations while I am preparing to make a batch add of water to maintain my rod index.  I use the procedures as I was trained to do that many people have help write and check.  I do use my knowledge to understand what I am doing and how it works. 

Start with the attitude that you learned a lot in school but know nothing and you will do alright.

[cheme09]

Great info Nutty Neutron.  I'm about a year our from graduating and as the end nears, I'm hoping the utility I work for now will be hiring for OPS.  Your advice as well as that given by others here will reflected on.

Regarding ChemicalEngineer24, it seems as though he is starting his research and feeling out the different opportunities in the industry.

...Just wondering people that go out and receive a nuclear engineering degree are they more then likely ending up working for nuclear power plants or what other options do they have other than navy? Obviously we are still a ways away from fusion however it would be nice to see a actual working reactor during my life time. What type of advancement opportunities are there at nuclear power plants with a BS?...

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH ONLY DISCUSSES NUCLEAR UTILITIES, WHICH ARE ONLY ONE SEGMENT OF THE NUCLEAR INDUSTRY
OPS is just one way in.  If he wants to stay on the engineering side, he'll have more luck getting an interview if he has Nuclear Engineering somewhere on his resume.  There are tons of opportunities both onsite at the plant (ops, training, maint., hp, systems eng, work coord, etc) and back at corporate (rad eng, core design, fuel procur, pra, safety, mech design, etc).  Do your research.  Figure out where you want to enter.  Focus your efforts on making yourself as desirable and competitive for that position.  Have a contingency plan.

The "huge retirement tsunami" that Nutty Neutron has alluded to is starting to pick gain momentum and it's going to be industry wide (ops and engineering).  Now is a good time to make a move.

[ChemicalEngineer24]

Thanks guys you all have been really great I am getting a prep book for GRE exams and am looking into going back like cheme for my masters in Nuclear engineering. I am also going to try to get a internship at Columbia Generating Station to get a little experience and to get a feel for how things work at a nuclear power plant and just to make sure it is for me. Like I said I loved chemical engineering and specifically loved working as a intern for BP oil however oil is a dying company and nuclear just seems like it is more interesting to me coming from a nuclear household already. Thanks all that replied

[greenbean]

One suggestion if you do go back to school for a MS, make sure you make your A's. Students with the 3.7+ grades get soooo many more opportunities towards research and design not to mention scholarships and fellowships. If you are going to go for an advanced degree, identify exactly why you are going for it.

This may mean that you need to consider a co-op to work one semester and go to school the next, but do not put yourself through a 40 hr work week while trying to take a "normal" gradschool load. This coming from a guy who had a very similar story of working hard 40+ hr weeks and taking a lot of undergrad before finally understanding why I was in school. Now I'm squarely focused on classes and, though I originally had to take student loans, my GPA sits around that 3.7 and my prospects for earning high paying jobs are much stronger. (Higher pay helps knock off those loans.)

I was able to make the change work for me and I was selected as a NUPOC a year ago, so hopefully this little encouragement helps. If you go back, FOCUS on the books. Your hard work mentality will pay off.

I guess that's good advice if you go for the ops position too. :-) Good luck.

[nminop]

I had to register to this website just to respond.  Mr. chemE, you are really not sounding like Chemical Engineer my friend.  Use google, and the first couple of responses you got from people, and figure out the rest on your own.  Call a navy recruiter.  Use GOOGLE.  It's astonishing you actually attempted to call somebody else for being snotty when he actually was giving you the simple information you should have taken the time to read before posting more of the same question. 

Here's the answer.  If you have the minimum requirements- apply.  If you're even contemplating it or having to ask on a forum for so long, then don't apply.  You aren't the type of person they want. 

But that being said you don't seem very intelligent, or good at communicating.  Not to mention figuring things out on your own- something ChemE's are taught to do.  So you probably would have trouble if you had an interview. 

[Nuclear NASCAR]

It's been 2 years since this thread was last replied in.  I'm betting the original poster has either figured it out or moved on.  Attention to detail can be important in the nuclear industry I've heard.