Af. American Female with Bachelors degree in Physics go enlisted???

[bmoreliketrese]

I am an African American female (not sure if that would help with my question but decided to throw it in there). I have a bachelor's degree in physics. I had a nuclear physics internship while in college and it seems that nuclear physics was one of the only topics in physics that I was great at. Problem is that my gpa wasn't that great (2.73) so I was told that in order to become a nuke engineer (which is reserved for officers) my best bet would be to go enlisted.  Is it worth becoming a nuke to get to be a nuclear engineer? How long does the process take?  (BTW, a 2.73 might as well be a 1.0. As competitive as the job market is. Jobs are interested in me until they see my gpa.) I want to work in the sciences I feel that this is the only way to do it. PLEASE HELP ... I would appreciate any advise or opinions offered. THANKS 

[Starkist]

1) your skin color, gender, and any of that has no bearing on anything. You are seriously selling yourself short if you are getting caught up on that.

2) This question has been asked 100's of times, please search. edit:  typing "enlisted to officer" provides 3 pages of results.

3) gamecock went from enlisted to officer in the fashion you are wanting, but Im fairly certain he's gone over this process, again search.

[Sun Dog]

your skin color, gender, and any of that has no bearing on anything.

In Shangri-La that may be true and the modern Navy may be Shangri-La.  In the real world of corporate America it is very untrue, particularily when the potential employee comes to an interview with a chip on their shoulder.  When the OP started out by stating her ethnic background and gender, she declared that these are issues in her mind.  IMNSHO, that attitude generates an aura that can't be covered up during an interview.   

[bmoreliketrese]

thanks for your replies. race and gender was not an issue coming into the door until recruiters for both the navy and the air force volunteered that it many have an impact on my career. i was hoping to get real world perspective outside of the recruiter offices.

[Higgs]

thanks for your replies. race and gender was not an issue coming into the door until recruiters for both the navy and the air force volunteered that it many have an impact on my career. i was hoping to get real world perspective outside of the recruiter offices.

Only your lack of performance will impact your career. Unless of course the military still has quotas, then maybe that might trump GPA. I don't know though.

Good luck.

[Sun Dog]

Only your lack of performance will impact your career.

How I wish that were true.  Can't perform until you have been granted an opportunity.  The opportunity is influenced by many factors including race, gender, attitude, etc. etc. etc.

I have been asked to recruit young females for positions because someone in the Ivory Tower determined that the work force consisted of too many white, middle aged males.  So yes, gender can influence the opportunity to perform.

[UncaBuffalo]

How I wish that were true.  Can't perform until you have been granted an opportunity.  The opportunity is influenced by many factors including race, gender, attitude, etc. etc. etc.

I have been asked to recruit young females for positions because someone in the Ivory Tower determined that the work force consisted of too many white, middle aged males.  So yes, gender can influence the opportunity to perform.

As Sun Dog notes, being young and/or female and/or a minority CAN make it easier to get the job in the first place.  I know 25 years ago DOE sites openly had 'quotas' that made the 2nd two a 'plus' on the initial hiring.  (I've also been in some blatantly racist &/or sexist plants where I'm sure either was a minus.)

I'm already on record as saying life is different for women in industrial settings:
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,27448.msg143987.html#msg143987

I will also go on record as saying I sure wouldn't want to put up with the attitudes in some of the plants if I was a minority...heck, I get offended by those attitudes as it is...



I'm sure my rant applies to the navy to some extent also....



If I were in your shoes, I'd be researching the hiring practices at DOE sites before I signed my next few years over to the navy...you might find you can get a government job, even with a low GPA.

Good luck.  


modified for grammar

[spekkio]

I am an African American female (not sure if that would help with my question but decided to throw it in there).

No one cares... at least not anyone who matters. Why do you believe this is important to mention?

I have a bachelor's degree in physics[/color]. I had a nuclear physics internship while in college and it seems that nuclear physics was one of the only topics in physics that I was great at.Problem is that my gpa wasn't that great (2.73)

Your GPA doesn't match your opinion of yourself. What proves that you were great at nuclear physics, other than the fact that you think so?

so I was told that in order to become a nuke engineer (which is reserved for officers) my best bet would be to go enlisted.  Is it worth becoming a nuke to get to be a nuclear engineer? How long does the process take?  (BTW, a 2.73 might as well be a 1.0. As competitive as the job market is. Jobs are interested in me until they see my gpa.) I want to work in the sciences I feel that this is the only way to do it. PLEASE HELP ... I would appreciate any advise or opinions offered. THANKS 

Well, your GPA makes you ineligible for a position as NR Engineer, so your only chance at becoming eligible would be to enlist. As others mentioned, you should PM Gamecock on what that will require. There is no guarantee, and it is going to be based upon your performance and not the fact that you are an African American Female.

1) your skin color, gender, and any of that has no bearing on anything. You are seriously selling yourself short if you are getting caught up on that.

OP didn't mention skin color, she mentioned her heritage. My wife's father is from Egypt...that makes her African American, but she's still white.

[bmoreliketrese]

No one cares... at least not anyone who matters. Why do you believe this is important to mention?

I mentioned race and gender because it was brought  to my attention by the navy and airforce recruiters that it my have an impact on my advancement to an officer.

Your GPA doesn't match your opinion of yourself. What proves that you were great at nuclear physics, other than the fact that you think so?

The grades I recieved in those particular subjects proves that I am great at nuclear physics. I did very well in small particle physics classes; it was other subjects that created the gpa problem. not the nuclear physics classes.

[Gamecock]

I mentioned race and gender because it was brought  to my attention by the navy and airforce recruiters that it my have an impact on my advancement to an officer.
The grades I recieved in those particular subjects proves that I am great at nuclear physics. I did very well in small particle physics classes; it was other subjects that created the gpa problem. not the nuclear physics classes.

Getting a "good" grade in a class  doesn't neccasairly prove anything.  I can tell you from personal experience that I have "learned" more in some classes where I was on the left side of the bell curve then in some classes where I was in the tails on the right side of the bell curve.

In academia, grades are subjective.

Cheers,
GC

[Starkist]

In Shangri-La that may be true and the modern Navy may be Shangri-La.  In the real world of corporate America it is very untrue, particularily when the potential employee comes to an interview with a chip on their shoulder.  When the OP started out by stating her ethnic background and gender, she declared that these are issues in her mind.  IMNSHO, that attitude generates an aura that can't be covered up during an interview.  

Good thing we're talking about the military and not corporate america....

Im not a minority woman, but last time I checked there were no "gender" and "race" blocks on eval performance...

But her concerns would be officer accension, which she didnt specify at first.

[a|F]

Good thing we're talking about the military and not corporate america....

Im not a minority woman, but last time I checked there were no "gender" and "race" blocks on eval performance...

But her concerns would be officer accension, which she didnt specify at first.

Diversity is important when it comes to selection boards, regardless of the industry. 

Maybe you've heard of Affirmative Action, a lovely government program for those it catapults...?

[HydroDave63]

Good thing we're talking about the military and not corporate america....

Dude, some of us have more time on the crapper in the Indian Ocean than you have in Corporate America! Big Navy and Big Government are One! Perhaps some Google time on Title IX would do ya some good.

Let's keep it on topic...is enlisted the best path to reach her objective of becoming a nuclear engineer?

[S3GLMS]

I would recommend that you do not join as enlisted if you really want to be an engineer.  If you want to be a nuclear engineer it should take two more years of college in Engineering past your physics degree.  Then you can do whatever you choose in nuclear power. There are two major issues you will need to overcome:

1.  If you go through the enlisted training program, they will not provide you with a Nuclear engineering degree.  This you will need to accomplish on your own, at the only instiututions in the country who can provide you with an ABET qualified degree, a civillian college or University. (this takes several years to complete, there are no real shortcuts, and no, physics is not engineering.  I am speaking the truth check the state licensing laws for engineers.) Also, there is not a whole lot of available free time in the first two years of the program for your own private study time.

2.  You will be tied to the enlisted nuclear program for 6 years, very few options and possibiliies will be available once you are in the program.  You will not be guaranteed selection for officer programs no matter what a recruiter will tell you or even your command once you in the navy.  These are very selctive programs and previous college performance plays a huge role( ie. Grade Point Average - GPA).  Your reported GPA of 2.73 is not good, meaning not very competitive.  Consider the fact that even though physics is a science and obviously more technical than say sociology,  The sociology degree with a 4.0 will get the nod because of GPA and proven success in their college endeaver.  It may not be fair but that is what happens.  If you do the math for time spent, 2 years in college is shorter than 6 years in the Navy by 4 years.  This is more important in accomplishing the goal I think.

I have some experience in this, I Spent over 7.5 years in the enlisted nuclear program.  I entered the navy with degree in Physics from the University of Minnesota, GPA 2.43.  I applied three times for OCS and was never selected.  I was sailor of the year at my command and made E-7 in just under 7 years.  There was no way to get to be a nuclear engineer in the navy for me, and that is a fact.  I completed another engineering degree while I was on active duty.  I left the Navy at 7 years 7 months and became a profesional engineer.  I have built civillian Nuclear power plants and supervised operations in them as an engineer, after I left the navy.  I am a consultant now.

[Sun Dog]

Opportunities exist.

For example, Areva is looking for a Field Engineer to join their PWR Reactor Services Group.  Land that job and you'll make some money while you gain industry experience.  Learn fast and opportunities for advanced positions would surely follow.

[redline]

My company would hire you in a minute as an NLO. You meet many of their criteria as well as one of the most important ones diversity-yes the unspoken one- if you are worth a darn you'll advance quickly, if not you studied the wrong subject. Unfortunately every time we hire we hire diversity and in many or most cases it doesn't work out. But those people are still here. Some though rise to the top...maybe you can too.

[spekkio]

Getting a "good" grade in a class  doesn't neccasairly prove anything.  I can tell you from personal experience that I have "learned" more in some classes where I was on the left side of the bell curve then in some classes where I was in the tails on the right side of the bell curve.

In academia, grades are subjective.

Cheers,
GC

I agree, but you know as well as I do that NR doesn't really care about that, particularly when that number is under a 2.8.

[Gamecock]

I agree, but you know as well as I do that NR doesn't really care about that, particularly when that number is under a 2.8.

Yes, I do know

[spekkio]

The grades I recieved in those particular subjects proves that I am great at nuclear physics. I did very well in small particle physics classes; it was other subjects that created the gpa problem. not the nuclear physics classes.

So when you go in front of the Admiral, if you even get an interview (that's a big IF), how will you assure him that you can pass NNPS courses like electrical engineering, physics, and fluid dynamics? Right now you're jumping up and down about how great you are because you're a one trick pony...oh yea, and you can trace your heritage back to Africa. That has a lot to do with nuclear power, and it's certainly not something anyone else in the US can do.

[HydroDave63]

So when you go in front of the Admiral, if you even get an interview (that's a big IF), how will you assure him that you can pass NNPS courses like electrical engineering, physics, and fluid dynamics? Right now you're jumping up and down about how great you are because you're a one trick pony...oh yea, and you can trace your heritage back to Africa. That has a lot to do with nuclear power, and it's certainly not something anyone else in the US can do.

I reckon your wardroom doesn't have a spare copy?

[nukengr]

I would recommend that you do not join as enlisted if you really want to be an engineer.  If you want to be a nuclear engineer it should take two more years of college in Engineering past your physics degree.  Then you can do whatever you choose in nuclear power.

In your situation I totally agree with S3. You can take MS level courses at just about any ABET school on a provisional basis to prove the low GPA was not indicative of your current abilities. The risk is all in your court to prove you can get a good GPA in the 1st 12 units. If you do it, they'll use that the basis for you're admission into the MS program for a degree. Getting a job with an MS in engineering gets a lot easier.

Going in as enlisted with the end goal of jumping to OCS is risky and will take longer than a MS program. You can't control all the risk either. If you get a roadblock of a boss who just hates the thought of you becoming he superior you're hosed.

[Gamecock]

I reckon your wardroom doesn't have a spare copy?

LOL

My Reactor Officer presented a copy of this book to me when I transferred off IKE.

I still keep it on my desk though I have never actually read it.

[Bigchris]

Right now you're jumping up and down about how great you are because you're a one trick pony...oh yea, and you can trace your heritage back to Africa. That has a lot to do with nuclear power, and it's certainly not something anyone else in the US can do.

Hello spekkio,

The comment that I quoted above does not live up to the high quality standards that your post usually possess. In this case, you seem more concerned about this lady's 'heritage' than she does. It seems to me that you may  have unfairly stereotyped her when you said, "Right now you're jumping up and down about how great you are because you're a one trick pony...oh yea, and you can trace your heritage back to Africa."

Perhaps I have misunderstood the situation, so I would like you to clarify it for me. Hopefully I am wrong, if not then I think your comments may have a negative effect on the free exchange of ideas that this site seems to encourage. The way I see, it the lady asked a legitimate question and she received a number of decent answers with the major exception being part of one of your comments that is quoted above.

It seems to me,  that your comment that I quoted above can be seen as moving a generally healthy discussion into a bit of a personal attack that the OP does not deserve. If we don't address this type of bad behavior in its infancy, it is possible to grow into a climate or culture that makes beneficial civil discourse less likely to occur, and hurt the reputation of this site.

I have to say that based on your previous post it is likely that you are not guilty of doing what, I am going to suggest, it looks like you have done. Please don't take my request for clarification personnel. You deserve the benefit of the doubt, the time and energy you have spent contributing professionally to this site earned you that much and more in my opinion.

First: I know that "jumping up and down" is a figure of speech, nonetheless, it does not accurately depict the OP, IMHO.

Second: Are you saying she is "jumping up and down about how great" she is because she thinks she is "a one trick pony"? Or are you trying to say she is "jumping up and down about how great" she is, and you think that the she is a one trick pony?

Either way she is not jumping up and down and she did not say how great she was, just that nuclear physics was a topic she was great in. Maybe she is great in nuclear physics. Perhaps she could have chosen a better word to describe her success in that area, but to go from her saying she is great in nuclear physic to you saying say she is jumping up and down etc is not accurate and unfairly opens her up to contempt or scorn.

Third: Are you saying she is "jumping up and down about" because she is  able to trace her heritage back to Africa?

Read what she wrote with her OP and her replies. She said clearly ,

thanks for your replies. race and gender was not an issue coming into the door until recruiters for both the navy and the air force volunteered that it many have an impact on my career. I was hoping to get real world perspective outside of the recruiter offices.

What I am trying to say is I don't see this lady "jumping up and down about" anything, and certainly not about her heritage.

There is a second aspect of you comments to her that I would like to bring to your attention, mostly because this second aspect of you post tends to push me towards my first conclusion, so for that reason I ask you to explain it, it you don't mind.

No one cares... at least not anyone who matters. Why do you believe this is important to mention?  Your GPA doesn't match your opinion of yourself.

You asked her why she thought it was important to mention that she is an African American Female, an hour and forty-five minutes after she already explained her reason for mentioning it.  Notice the time stamp on these quotes.

thanks for your replies. race and gender was not an issue coming into the door until recruiters for both the navy and the air force volunteered that it many have an impact on my career. I was hoping to get real world perspective outside of the recruiter offices.

That coupled with your possible miss characterization of her jumping up and down over being able to trace her heritage to Africa, is something that seems out of character when compared to your other post, so I wanted to hear your side of the story.

I am willing to believe that you started to answer her first post and perhaps did not see her second post when you answered her first post, (if that makes any sense).   Hopefully that is what happened. Otherwise you are badgering her.

I thought you deserved the benefit of the doubt in this case based on your history of thoughtful and professional advice you have given to the members of Nukeworker.

Your apparent miss  characterization of the OP appears rude, IMNSHO. Being rude to a first time poster, who asked a racially sensitive question, is not something we usually see from you or any one else here. So if I have misunderstood you please correct me. I just did not want what I saw  as a potentially unfair generalization of a guest that came looking for help, to go unchallenged

It looks a little like you are taking out some frustration on the OP. That would be unfair and counter productive. She,  after all, has allowed our members to get involved in a discussion that we are not always welcomed to be a part of.

We owe this lady our thanks for opening up this dialogue and I hope I'm wrong to suggest that we need to be reminded not to shoot the messenger if we want a place at the table when these types of issues are being discussed.

Bigchris

[HydroDave63]

Hello spekkio,

[16 GB later...]

Bigchris

[MacGyver]

Hello spekkio,

The comment that I quoted above does not live up to the high quality standards that your post usually possess. In this case, you seem more concerned about this lady's 'heritage' than she does. It seems to me that you may  have unfairly stereotyped her when you said, "Right now you're jumping up and down about how great you are because you're a one trick pony...oh yea, and you can trace your heritage back to Africa."

Perhaps I have misunderstood the situation, so I would like you to clarify it for me. Hopefully I am wrong, if not then I think your comments may have a negative effect on the free exchange of ideas that this site seems to encourage. The way I see, it the lady asked a legitimate question and she received a number of decent answers with the major exception being part of one of your comments that is quoted above.

It seems to me,  that your comment that I quoted above can be seen as moving a generally healthy discussion into a bit of a personal attack that the OP does not deserve. If we don't address this type of bad behavior in its infancy, it is possible to grow into a climate or culture that makes beneficial civil discourse less likely to occur, and hurt the reputation of this site.

I have to say that based on your previous post it is likely that you are not guilty of doing what, I am going to suggest, it looks like you have done. Please don't take my request for clarification personnel. You deserve the benefit of the doubt, the time and energy you have spent contributing professionally to this site earned you that much and more in my opinion.

First: I know that "jumping up and down" is a figure of speech, nonetheless, it does not accurately depict the OP, IMHO.

Second: Are you saying she is "jumping up and down about how great" she is because she thinks she is "a one trick pony"? Or are you trying to say she is "jumping up and down about how great" she is, and you think that the she is a one trick pony?

Either way she is not jumping up and down and she did not say how great she was, just that nuclear physics was a topic she was great in. Maybe she is great in nuclear physics. Perhaps she could have chosen a better word to describe her success in that area, but to go from her saying she is great in nuclear physic to you saying say she is jumping up and down etc is not accurate and unfairly opens her up to contempt or scorn.

Third: Are you saying she is "jumping up and down about" because she is  able to trace her heritage back to Africa?

Read what she wrote with her OP and her replies. She said clearly ,


What I am trying to say is I don't see this lady "jumping up and down about" anything, and certainly not about her heritage.

There is a second aspect of you comments to her that I would like to bring to your attention, mostly because this second aspect of you post tends to push me towards my first conclusion, so for that reason I ask you to explain it, it you don't mind.

You asked her why she thought it was important to mention that she is an African American Female, an hour and forty-five minutes after she already explained her reason for mentioning it.  Notice the time stamp on these quotes.

That coupled with your possible miss characterization of her jumping up and down over being able to trace her heritage to Africa, is something that seems out of character when compared to your other post, so I wanted to hear your side of the story.

I am willing to believe that you started to answer her first post and perhaps did not see her second post when you answered her first post, (if that makes any sense).   Hopefully that is what happened. Otherwise you are badgering her.

I thought you deserved the benefit of the doubt in this case based on your history of thoughtful and professional advice you have given to the members of Nukeworker.

Your apparent miss  characterization of the OP appears rude, IMNSHO. Being rude to a first time poster, who asked a racially sensitive question, is not something we usually see from you or any one else here. So if I have misunderstood you please correct me. I just did not want what I saw  as a potentially unfair generalization of a guest that came looking for help, to go unchallenged

It looks a little like you are taking out some frustration on the OP. That would be unfair and counter productive. She,  after all, has allowed our members to get involved in a discussion that we are not always welcomed to be a part of.

We owe this lady our thanks for opening up this dialogue and I hope I'm wrong to suggest that we need to be reminded not to shoot the messenger if we want a place at the table when these types of issues are being discussed.

Bigchris

TLDNR