how hot is clean?

[Shonkatoys]

If you look at a cumulative frequency distribution from a modern instrument you will see that about half the readings will be below 0 if the material is not contaminated, or slightly contaminated. Anything above 15,000 dpm 100 cm2  or above is hot for certain isotopes, 14,999 is not.  A  cumulative frequency distribution can be viewed  by clicking the Nukeworker tool bar,  Pictures,  Then go to Nuke companies, then click Shonka.  We have actually fired someone by looking at this distribution and seeing the background was wrong. We checked that person in the field, Sure enough he was cheating, TOO BAD out the door.  You can't get this with 1940's technology that most people still use.

[Shonkatoys]

I enclosed another Cumulative Frequency Distribution I lovingly call your fired.  This can be viewed under pictures>Nuke Companies>Shonka.  This shows by the too many negative readings that there was a probability that this survey was falsified.  We eliminated the instrument and P10 because the shift before and after it was working.  We checked on the person doing the survey and found him falsifying data. so as  the words of Donald Trump say" Your Fired"  No other instrument I know does this.  Thats why I like negative readings,  If I have more than 50 percent readings below 0,   I  want to know why, Tech, P10, Instrument.  I need to find out.  There was a company this week that admitted that they had about 100 instruments that did not work for a undetermined amount of time.  Thats unfortunate.  With  a cumulative frequency distribution you should know  within a shift if any 1 instrument failed because you  have  this data  reviewed and thousands of readings  are taken.  So how hot is clean is depending on, instrument, company ethics, company competence, company willingness to allow poor employees to continue etc.  Does not necessarily have to do with the requlation.  Also How hot is clean has to do with the regulators who check on companies and their willingness to let them slide.  Or if they check them at all.

[raymcginnis]

I love this topic.  Sometimes people are discussing other frustrating issues, I think.  Shipping regulations and RESRAD are way far apart.  People get frustrated by both, so I can see how they can end up in the same discussion.

RESRAD is a tool for calculating safe amounts of residual radioactivity to leave on an abandoned site.  49CFR tell you how to ship radioactive things safely.  Sometimes we forget that there are new people reading our posts.  This is a good post and all opinions are valid, but new people may not know what we are discussing. 

I deal with both release and shipping on a daily basis.

Real release and risk is what you can convince your neighbors of.  If you have people sending out flyers convincing you neighbors that they are going to die if they buy property on your released land, you are in huge trouble.  Most Humans will accept the worst story as true. 

I have done nuclear technology for years.  I have a gamma spectrometer at my disposal.  We have to keep it cooled down over the weekend so it available on Monday.  Last year, I knew there were no ethics violations for using it on Saturday and Sunday.  I own property back east.  I took 6 soil samples from it and flew them here and analyzed them myself, with long time counts.  They indicated 0.05 to 0.2 pCi per gram Cs-137, all from global fallout from above ground nuclear testing.

After doing all of this research, my opinion has not changed.  I would live on 9 pCi/g, a typical farmer resident scenario.  E-6 wants me to take Cs-137 to 0.04 pCi/g or less, way below fallout levels at places way far away from nuclear sites. 

I cannot find the logic in that request.  If we require all nuclear sites to get rid of all of the pollution, then we need to spend the tax dollars to clean up the entire planet from global fallout.  That would mean we would have to move to the moon and bury the Earth on Mars.  That way everyone would be safe, right?

I stretched my point a bit to get a logical response. 

[alphadude]

Now Ray, we can only surmise that the Cs-137 is from fall out, unless your facility did not have any onsite or was not a test site. If you are a not at a cesium production facility-lucky you! 

We take it into account to be conservative and hint that it is fallout from the global pollution that nuclear weapons released and from Chernobly.  There are a few papers on Cs-137 levels but not a lot of good information on local levels... We conducted a local study and found up to 1.8 pCi/g Cs-137 in this latitude-offsite. Some reports indicate as high as 4 pCi/g in the western states downwind from the test site.  Sampling several collective mechanism we have found up to 3 pCi/g in our area. The levels you found sound like open land levels typical of a lot of areas in the us. Sr-90 is another one to look for. Its everywhere and follows K-40 somewhat.

[atomicarcheologist]

well archy, its too hard to explain how we do our jobs here in a few paragraphs.  it takes some of us days, weeks, months to determine what dose a few thousand dpm of some nuclide will deliver over a 1, 10, 25 year period... thats why we make the big dollars$$$$)

I appreciate the sourcing the alfalphie!  I know it takes a long time to figure out this type of information.  That wasn't the idea.  You seem to think I am trying to "rip off" information to use in a professional sense.  I am not. If I was, I wouldn't do it out in the open in front of everybody in the business.   If I needed to have a problem solved for me, I'd hire someone to do it alot faster than your estimate and I would pay them well.  Because, after all, it's the client who truely pays, isn't it?  The contractors only make the middle money and get the tax write offs.   In the meantime, I'll keep my miserable $XXK and do my own thing.  You keep your big bucks, you'll need them for all the headaches you self generate.

[atomicarcheologist]

seems to me it all "....depends on what your definition of is is....",.....

Are you running in '08?  You have my vote!

[atomicarcheologist]

If you look at a cumulative frequency distribution from a modern instrument you will see that about half the readings will be below 0 if the material is not contaminated, or slightly contaminated. Anything above 15,000 dpm 100 cm2  or above is hot for certain isotopes, 14,999 is not.  A  cumulative frequency distribution can be viewed  by clicking the Nukeworker tool bar,  Pictures,  Then go to Nuke companies, then click Shonka.  We have actually fired someone by looking at this distribution and seeing the background was wrong. We checked that person in the field, Sure enough he was cheating, TOO BAD out the door.  You can't get this with 1940's technology that most people still use.

I like your attitude to readings below 0, assuming that is a net 0 and not a gross zero.  The concept does give some techs conniptions!  That's a nice toy that you have there.  I never needed to do a statistical analysis to ascertain if a tech was cheating, radioing, or otherwise falsifing data.  Maybe I missed some.  But I doubt it.  It seems most times I have to settle techs down when they're surveying interiors as they keep wanting to ascribe high levels due to not accounting for geometries, such as in the corners with the levels rising from 2 or more surfaces emitting energy instead of the one they are measuring.  I will keep it in mind for the future though, right along side of your truck mount.  I've had that in my file for a few years now.

[atomicarcheologist]

Real release and risk is what you can convince your neighbors of. 

So, if I were trying to release with the scenario posted, I should buy out the neighbors, resell at a loss, and make up the difference with the "succesful termination" clause in the delicensing contract?

[raymcginnis]

No, this is not what I was trying to say.  All I am trying to say is that ALARA or ALARTRA was created for reason.  The key word is reasonable.  It is not reasonable to abandon the Earth because of global fallout. Yes I did not spend out of pocket money to determine Sr-90 levels, nor PU levels.  I did what I could do for free, that was gamma spec.  The Cs-137 told me what I wanted to know.  What else did I need to know?  The Cs-137 came from somewhere was there on my property.  Some want to say that maybe the global fallout did not happen.  It must have come from a close by nuclear facility. 

OK, I say prove it.  Global fallout is indeed global.  It fell everywhere. 

People want me to prove that a tiny amount of radiation will not harm people every day.  For those opposed I say prove that it does harm Humans.  All you have is speculation.  There is no computer program written that is near the quality of RESRAD (which proves the opposite), etc!

[alphadude]

Everybody knows an artist takes what he needs!!! 

Its Frankensteen not Frankenstien!

[stownsend]

This topic has been interesting reading for several weeks and actually has opened my eyes to the many variables associated with remediation.I have gained alot of respect for the people making the decisions on how far they want us to dig etc.My only hope is if this has been a continuos discussion since your celebration of Cinci De Mayo you call a taxi to get home safely.

[atomicarcheologist]

.My only hope is if this has been a continuos discussion since your celebration of Cinci De Mayo you call a taxi to get home safely.

First, we need a definition of "home".

[halflifer]

People want me to prove that a tiny amount of radiation will not harm people every day.  For those opposed I say prove that it does harm Humans.  All you have is speculation. 

and if you had said that in 1950 about asbestos, what would the results have been?

[alphadude]

As far as I know, I have never proved anything except that my results will equal this in mR/yr. I think that is pretty much standard fare in remediation... the risk is well known, then the  limits  are agreed too, and then we set out to prove or disprove that the limits are met.  Dont know of but one or two HPs that have proved such a thing and I aint one of them (I did get to meet Dr. Lapp one time!) Thats for the ICRP to deal with not me!  I dont get paid enuff to prove that.

Keep focused on the mission boys!

[SloGlo]

and if you had said that in 1950 about asbestos, what would the results have been?

bout the same as iffen ya say the sun's rays won't hurt ya when yer ina tanning salon!

[SloGlo]

IReal release and risk is what you can convince your neighbors of.  If you have people sending out flyers convincing you neighbors that they are going to die if they buy property on your released land, you are in huge trouble.  Most Humans will accept the worst story as true. 

That would mean we would have to move to the moon and bury the Earth on Mars.  That way everyone would be safe, right?

'k ray!  when ya convince everybuddy two moov two da moon, eye'll bye yer nay booring property, 'n we kin partay!

[halflifer]

bout the same as iffen ya say the sun's rays won't hurt ya when yer ina tanning salon!

gotta agree with ya, glo......the sun's rays won't hurt ya when yer ina tanning salon (or a koal myne, or on a SG platform) ya mite wana wach out fer d'bulbs tho'

[radgal]

Risk?  How about the 2 pack-a-day smoker who is afraid of nuclear energy due to "radiation".  They are shocked to learn they get more than me.  One worker would come to work and light up the PCM.  It ended up his basement was smoking hot (radon).  Plainfield Il had to go to Lake Michigan water the Ra was twice EPA limit for radium in the water supply.

[RAD-GHOST]

I believe it's more of a word game?

For Decades, the Industry has Operated under the philosophy of a Fail Safe Standard.

Today's Release Criteria, has converted it to Safely Failing!

One has to Wonder?  RG!   

[raymcginnis]

I started a new topic just about risk.  It is pretty cool new thread so far.  I wanted to put once last post on this one.  Rad-Gal, if you look at my new topic, your cigarette analogy plays right into my automobile analogy in my soap boxing on the initial post.

Rad Ghost, yes I can relate to your humor.  I once worked at a plant where the motto for the outage that we saw on what were then modern signs saying: "We shall not proceed in the face of uncertainty."  After a 3 month outage was into it's 12th month, we all knew that they should cut off the second half and just have it say "We shall not proceed."  Not that I was complaining, because I liked the job.  A job like that today would make everyone drool!

It was frustrating to setup a job and have it canceled because procedure steps were out of order.  They have fixed that all now and jobs are shorter.

My new post has people talking about the consequences of that.

I wanted to have people talk only about risks of residual radioactivity for remediation sites under MARRSIM, but there are intelligent remarks from people about the risks from working at operating nuclear facilities.

I know these risks, because I recently worked at one, and people were complaining!  I was OK, because I was yard dog, but people in the BRT were complaining.

I say let us all continue this on my new post and see what everyone says.  I like this site very much, but the subject can change very fast on a particular post, especially when it get emotionally hot. 

Check out the new thread, and let us go from there.  The old thread went a different direction from the original question, and for a person to have to dig through 7 pages of posts to try to figure out what the original question was about, is too much to ask.  The whole thing went into risk and what we all think about risk.  Engineers calculate risk and HP technicians take them every day and they try to protect everyone form those risks.

Let's all go there for risk posts. http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,5707.0.html

For background issues, let's stay here.  For risk and RESRAD, let's use my new thread.

Just a suggestion from an IT/HP dude.

[SloGlo]

Risk?  How about the 2 pack-a-day smoker who is afraid of nuclear energy due to "radiation".  They are shocked to learn they get more than me.  One worker would come to work and light up the PCM.  It ended up his basement was smoking hot (radon).  Plainfield Il had to go to Lake Michigan water the Ra was twice EPA limit for radium in the water supply.

that's basically how the hole radon abatement biz got started.  an operator at limerick station got tired of setting off the pcm's after he got to work, so one day he went thru them on the way in...... the rest is history,

[Shonkatoys]

10 micro R an hour is clean in Denver, it is not in Oak Ridge.  5 micro R an hour is clean in Oak Ridge, it is not in Panama City Florida.

[RAD-GHOST]

The Key Word, " CHANGE "! 

My guess, the limits and levels associated with the current release protocol, will change dramatically and very soon!

If you established a release criteria of 10% of the current models, your probably still to high!

It wiull be interesting, RG!

[SloGlo]

If you established a release criteria of 10% of the current models, your probably still to high!

it just doesn't matter iffen they change the criteria tomorrow.  iffen it's clean 'n gone today, it's good to go!  period.  done deal.  'n yes, i too have worked sites that were cleaned before and not clean later.  the trick is to make it go away, far, far, away.  udderwise, it's like an upset cow..... it'll kick ya in yer dairyaire when ya think it's safe.

[alphadude]

i dont think you can sell your liability slo go.. out of sight dont really mean out of mind.