Argon addition to RCS to increase activity

[Scorpio51]

RCS activity at Harris is so low that it's very difficult to monitor for a primary to secondary leaks.  Chemistry wants to add argon to the RCS and use AR-41 to monitor leakage.  HP has a concern due to the high energy activation gamma that results. Has anyone worked at a plant that did this?

[Roll Tide]

WOW! That is thinking outside the box.
Fortunately I have never been at a plant with excessively low RCS activity. 

[Charles U Farley]

What does RCS stand for?

[RDTroja]

What does RCS stand for?

You are either joking or you have been digging dirt too long... right?

In case you are not joking, Reactor Coolant System.

[alphadude]

naaa its been though of before-and usually u hear the ARE U NUTZ? alarm. so where is this going to off gas - the question I would ask is the plant tight- no leaks cause u will find them for sure.

[Rad Sponge]

It has been shopped around as a potential tool.

Everytime the same concern is voiced:

ALARA.

Why make more radioactivity then is absolutely necessary.

I figure someone out there has an RMS sensitive enough to detech a pri to sec.

As a chemistry tech, its creative.

As an HP tech, its retarded.

As an approving authority, I would have said...no, find a better mousetrap.

[Charles U Farley]

You are either joking or you have been digging dirt too long... right?

In case you are not joking, Reactor Coolant System.

Actually, no, I was serious.  I thought Scorpio was referring to a specific chemistry analysis.  I was thinking Radio Chemistry S...  Rubidium Cesium S...  I didn't catch that you were just being nondescript.  I dumped coffee on the R section of my civvy to navy dictionary.   But thanks, if you need me, I'll be feeding the shaft seals. 

But, in all seriousness, why does HP care?  After 10 hours, both the beta and gamma are all going to be gone.  You can care less about K41 and K41 could care less about you.  Is it common practice in the commercial world to enter the RC within 10 hours of shutdown?  Or do you have exposed recirc piping outside of any shielding that the gamma would be of concern to personnel while at power?

[mojoe70]

We do it here at Diablo. Works great for the primary to secondary leak rate. Will put it in for a week or so at 5cc/min then take it out. W/ the small cross section the inventory lasts awhile. Online dose is minimal.

[Fermi2]

We go into the containment at 100% in the real world.

Mike

[mojoe70]

So do we just not much inside the biowall. When we do N-16 is the nuclide of choice.

[Fermi2]

That was for the benefit of Mr Farley.

Diablo is a Westinghouse 4 Loop with a big containment. Is Bio Shield equivalent to the Polar Crane Wall of an Ice Condenser Containment?

Mike

[alphadude]

ask INPO they will give you all the lessons learned and a POC...these type of questions should be put to INPO thats what they get paid for.

[Charles U Farley]

We go into the containment at 100% in the real world.

Mike

We do too, out here in the Farm Leagues.  I'm not talking about the "containment structure".  I was alluding to the personnel exposure within the "shielded volume". 

Whatever, it's all good.  Gotta go, batting practice.  Scouts in the stands, this is my ticket to the bigs.   

[Fermi2]

We do too, out here in the Farm Leagues.  I'm not talking about the "containment structure".  I was alluding to the personnel exposure within the "shielded volume". 

Whatever, it's all good.  Gotta go, batting practice.  Scouts in the stands, this is my ticket to the bigs.   

LOL Oh I didn't mean that as a shot! When I'm discussing the Nav I say the Rookie Leagues Heck when I was a squid I differentiated between the Real world and the Navy. In the real world Khaki Clad with anchors on their lapels don't yell at you because your hair isn't tapered correctly or your Gig Line isn't straight.

There are procedures for entering inside the Polar Crane Wall at power. It requires a certain level of Management Approval.

And alphadude, uh why would you say that? INPO knows surprisingly little about individual plant design. Having been there for a seminar or two and having had to coordinate visits with them I know that.

Mike

[alphadude]

Because INPO has a network of information and POC engineering staff. The question should be put to INPO then all related research and plants doing this type of engineering would pop up. That is one of their tasks by charter.

[Roll Tide]

Because INPO has a network of information and POC engineering staff. The question should be put to INPO then all related research and plants doing this type of engineering would pop up. That is one of their tasks by charter.

Few posters on this board are in INPO (although many are employed by a member organization). But we are trained to have questioning attitudes; it is often the guy trying to avoid standing in the shower deconning a co-worker that questions some of these "bright ideas" that sounded good in a conference room.

Because of that, I think this is a great place for a tech to ask a question. Of course a post by BZ will not be the plant basis for Ar injection into the RCS (that will require engineering evaluation). But a little common sense injection from information gleaned on Nukeworker (e.g. "this will require a new baseline of our annual dose goals" or "the following areas will not be accessible for x days after injection")  can save some pain later.

[Fermi2]

Because INPO has a network of information and POC engineering staff. The question should be put to INPO then all related research and plants doing this type of engineering would pop up. That is one of their tasks by charter.

Not true at all. They're charter is to share technical information in regards to operation of the plants, NOT technical details of the plants. You won't be able to go there or search their website and find info like that. I'm very proficient with the INPO website and have actually been to INPO and  know their capabilities. Technical detail to the extent you just implied is not a purpose of INPO. As M1Ark said before, please stick to that which you know.

Ok on Argon, is the idea to inject Argon and establish some baseline activity so that should activity increase it'd be within the reliable detection range?

Mike

[Rad Sponge]

I still maintain its better to not deliberately make activity if you don't have to.

Can someone answer me if there is a type of RMS in service on S/G blowdown or COG that has no problem picking up a pri to sec down to minute levels?

What kind of pri-sec leak rate are we talking about here? Our COG RMS can see down to about <1 gal/day per spec.

Figure VCT level traces, RMS, routine Activities on S/G bulk water, etc etc covers it.

What would be the cost benefit of Argon?

Can you get rid of the S/G and COG RMS systems? Are their labor savings?

What's the point?

[Charles U Farley]

Ok on Argon, is the idea to inject Argon and establish some baseline activity so that should activity increase it'd be within the reliable detection range?

Mike

I don't know, that's why I am interested in this thread.  If you want to monitor for primary to secondary leakage, how reliable would it be to base it on a neutron capture reaction (i.e. Ar40)?  Why is it not more beneficial to use a proton capture to monitor leakage?  All 1H should be shielded by steam generator tubes.  Any measurable amount of a 1H reaction daughter in the generator would have to have come through in a leak.  Obviously, I am missing something, because, as mentioned, some plants do inject 5cc of Ar.  Why is argon monitored and not, oh I don't know, flourine?

I will readily admit I do not know how you guys do business, but, I am ready to figure it out.  

[Fermi2]

You're in the Navy. The equipment you guys use for Activity Analysis is stone age compared with the stuff they use in the commercial world. The stuff is amazing. If they say injecting Argon can help I'm sure it can.

Mike

[Charles U Farley]

You're in the Navy. The equipment you guys use for Activity Analysis is stone age compared with the stuff they use in the commercial world. The stuff is amazing. If they say injecting Argon can help I'm sure it can.

Mike

Obviously not too amazing, since you need to externally raise activity levels.  I already said that I am sure it helps, since people do it.  My only question is why is it done, argon specifically?  However, Mike, I need to go.  I've got to go polish the anchors on my shirt collar.

Begin with,....inert,....follow that up with solubility,...now,you can take it from there,....

peace,..marssim   

O-18 + H1,… F-18 + n,…  109 minute half life,...  95% probability of F-18 to β+ decay,...  Give or take,… I might have missed something,...

peace,..chuck 

There are 12 ways to skin any cat, minimum.  Just wondering why we chose to do it this way.  This horse is dead.  Thanks for the shenanigans. 

[mattrev]

I don't know, that's why I am interested in this thread.  If you want to monitor for primary to secondary leakage, how reliable would it be to base it on a neutron capture reaction (i.e. Ar40)?  Why is it not more beneficial to use a proton capture to monitor leakage?  All 1H should be shielded by steam generator tubes.  Any measurable amount of a 1H reaction daughter in the generator would have to have come through in a leak.  Obviously, I am missing something, because, as mentioned, some plants do inject 5cc of Ar.  Why is argon monitored and not, oh I don't know, flourine?

I will readily admit I do not know how you guys do business, but, I am ready to figure it out.  

Because Fluorine 18 gives off a 511 KeV gamma. In gamma spectroscopy that shows up in the annihilation peak and is difficult to discern from everything else that undergoes annihilation and contributes to the 511 peak. In fact, most gamma specs call it the "ANL RAD" peak. Argon 41 has a discreet gamma it gives off.

[alphadude]

broadzilla u have operator itis... argon injection is part of technical operations.... and operations within technical specifications is  part of the design and philosophy. these new operators....  he is obviously SSOD material 

from your
inpo/acad certified instructor