Navy Nuke LT Getting Out

[War Eagle]

The throughput issue may also be a product of substandard training programs. Just putting that out there.

[JustinHEMI05]

The whole point that Mike is trying to make, and he is correct, that your quals and experience in the Navy DO NOT in any way indicate your success potential as an instant SRO as compared to someone pulled up out of engineering, for example. The issue he has (correct me if I am wrong Mike) is when someone with certain quals coming out of the Navy has an expectation or entitlement feeling towards being an instant SRO, and look down on NLO as a possible path. The statistics are that 50%ish of ex Navy nukes do not make it through the program, either by their own drive/motivation or poor training at the station. Peach Bottom defies the statistics and we have a 100% pass rate due to an excellent training program. However, there is an individual component that plays heavily because a large part of ILT is self taught. So there is shared blame as to the 50% over all industry fail rate. There are some stations who's training philosophy is to put up 20 and hope to get 10 licenses. That is an old school way of thinking, but the fact of the matter is that it takes place out there. And what Mike is saying, is left to their own devices (ie self taught ILT), a Navy nuke has no better chance of passing than anyone else.

And I do disagree with Seth, this training is much harder than the Navy pipeline overall. Sure, GF and systems is standard power school stuff, but he also hasn't done his simulator training yet. Again I say, this is where the men are separated from the boys. This is where an instant like me, who has no clue how to even handle a vanilla scram in the plant, has to learn how to handle a full power ATWS with no level indication while there is a leak into the drywell with a bypassed containment in 6 months. Trust me, its hard. (But extremely fun and exciting).

What it all comes down to is a combination of the training program, which unfortunately is lacking at some stations, and the drive and ability of the individual. And frankly, many ex Navy people aren't up to the task of being a CRS in a nuclear power plant. And even if they do squeek by, their first mistake in requal and they will be sent to a desk.

Justin

[adrianI]

These posts are so harsh(and hilarious) towards people getting out of the Navy. Part of the problem is that for the most part the Navy people don't know any different. When I got out of the Navy from prototype I also(incorrectly) had the attitude that becoming an NLO after being qualified EOOW as an enlisted guy was a step down. Not sure how to do it but the Navy guys need some more education on civilian nuclear power. We also that thought that SRO was going to be easy because of multiple choice exams,lol, boy were we wrong!

[SWO]

You'll be hard-pressed to convince any self-respecting adult (and most reasonable employers) that they might somehow succeed in a civilian job in spite of their military service, which is what seems to be the general tone of this conversation.

No one is arguing that passing through the NNPP pipeline makes you (1) qualified to start tomorrow as an SRO or (2) better than the next man if you become one. No one. What is being said is that prior strong job performance would seem to indicate some promise of future achievement. Of course, that's information that the recruiter and the employer are paid to uncover in order to eventually funnel that man or woman into the place where they have the greatest chance for success.

The LT simply asked what he'd be qualified to do in the civilian world, as in, "What opportunities might be on par with my prior experience?" It's likely he doesn't know much about the industry and would love just a little info about the varying job opportunities that may be available to him at some point.

Maybe we can try and make this informative instead of just generating numerous parallel rants about the inherent ineptitude & laziness that ravages the likes of myself and my peers? Perhaps we all can just /rant and get back on track...

[cruzcampo]

Wouldn't the more sugar coated way to say this all be something like:

"If you have the humility to admit you know nothing and the drive and determination to buckle down and learn something, then NLO at the least and SRO at the most.  If you don't then janitor."

[JsonD13]

My word of advice is do not take a job as a supervisor that you were a Div-o or PA for in the Navy (i.e. get into radiation protection supervision because you were a CRA).  I am a RCT and the way we do things is in no similar fashion to the way things were done in the Navy.  Without any related (i.e. Health Physics for radiation protection) degree or training, the lack of technical training you will recieve where you work will put you on a lower knowledge level than those who work for you.  You need to make desicions that are based off of knowledge and sound judgement, and if you dont have the background you are not qualified.

Operations is a different beast since they give force feed you TONS of technical training (IMHO those who pass learn not to puke).  Other trades not so much.


Jason

[JustinHEMI05]

You'll be hard-pressed to convince any self-respecting adult (and most reasonable employers) that they might somehow succeed in a civilian job in spite of their military service, which is what seems to be the general tone of this conversation.

No one is arguing that passing through the NNPP pipeline makes you (1) qualified to start tomorrow as an SRO or (2) better than the next man if you become one. No one. What is being said is that prior strong job performance would seem to indicate some promise of future achievement. Of course, that's information that the recruiter and the employer are paid to uncover in order to eventually funnel that man or woman into the place where they have the greatest chance for success.

The LT simply asked what he'd be qualified to do in the civilian world, as in, "What opportunities might be on par with my prior experience?" It's likely he doesn't know much about the industry and would love just a little info about the varying job opportunities that may be available to him at some point.

Maybe we can try and make this informative instead of just generating numerous parallel rants about the inherent ineptitude & laziness that ravages the likes of myself and my peers? Perhaps we all can just /rant and get back on track...

Most of us told him directly (in less than 3 words) what his qualifications would allow him to be a candidate for. You chose to revive a dead topic to attack one sentence that was already explained.

In the spirit of getting back on topic;

His navy experience and quals will allow him to be an instant SRO candidate.

[co60slr]

...prior strong job performance would seem to indicate some promise of future achievement. Of course, that's information that the recruiter and the employer are paid to uncover in order to eventually funnel that man or woman into the place where they have the greatest chance for success.

The point here SWO is that one's shoulder boards are not always as predictive in the commercial nuclear world as your posting "seems" to suggest.  (The evils of Internet forums/Email).  In fact, one might read some of the recent Navy Times articles and wonder what the heck senior enlisted and LTs are doing to earn their paychecks these days.  We'll save that parallel for a rainy day...

Also implied but not yet stated is that the actual Hiring Nuclear Manager that makes the decision on a candidate...in the nuclear world...is likely a MM2, ET2, etc that left the Navy in 1990 and knows EXACTLY the calibre of "LT" that HE experienced and could care less about your shoulder boards.  In fact, depending on HIS background with the military, a transitioning officer's arrogant tone/cockiness could have one looking for work elsewhere.  I've seen it happen.  Again...that can happen anywhere though.

So, when one is told to check their shoulder boards and "small reactor" at the door leaving the Navy, they're saying that humility goes a long way in the Commercial World...especially since everyone pretty much starts over as a NUB.  High paying NUB in some cases...but a NUB none the less.  It's my opinion, even in this forum, if you have to use your college degree, title, applaud points, gold stars, etc to validate your opinion or point, then it starts off invalid.   That's the way nuclear power truly works...the technology we serve doesn't care about our titles.

And yes, the SRO ILT pass rates are horrible...at some plants.   I've heard of 100% pass rates to 0% pass rates.   However, any Training Manager reading this that has a 0% pass rate...sorry, but that grade is YOURS, not the candidate's, and certainly not the Navy's!   TMI thought their operators could take the panel after a quick 3-month fam course....we all know that didn't work out to well for the world.   Since then, the NRC continues to "continually improve" the training requirements.   It doesn't matter if we like it or not...or like the exam questions or not...that's the way it is, for now.  And...don't tell me the NNPP Training Program is flawless.  I know better.

It's a great time for Nukes (of all ranks) to transition to Commercial....the LT doesn't need to lurk here to figure that out.  If the LT is worth his pay, he'll have contacted the bosses of the posters here to get more precise information and stats.  He will likely understand today that the disdain for "Instant SROs" is not shared by all managers. True, some companies do NOT hire Direct SROs...instead, they seem to have a healthy mentoring/training program that gets their AUOs ready for the Control Room. Perhaps we all agree that is the IDEAL route. Otherwise, I continue to see a steady stream job announcements weekly from Nuclear HR Reps that I networked with on LinkedIn that are looking for ex-Navy people for Direct SRO.

So, I wonder why we don't see more HR Reps here jumping into the middle of these "my reactor is bigger than your reactor" conversations?  <grin>   It's like a nuclear version of "Survivor" here...e.g., who is Broadzilla going to vote off Nukeworker.com this week?   (Meanwhile, HIS company is one that is undermanned...even more so now that he retired, I assume).  It's not too different than a heated debate during a mid-watch in EOS...is it SWO?

Life goes on...

Co60

[number41]

MY final post and then I'm done with this one   I'll conceed that nothing you have done in the Nav makes you qualified for anything in the civilian world.  But it does give you the best intro course that you are likely to get.  My real issue here is one that SWO has introduced.  Why in the world does it seem like every new guy that comes here looking for info/assistance gets blasted (by a select few) simply because he mentions that he's qualified EOOW/EWS, etc?  Are those not relevent facts?  Is someone here implying that a Navy Lt has the same knowledge level or ability as some kid directly out of college or even high school?  I don't believe that.  Regardless, there are quite a few people that come here simply trying to learn about civilian power so that they can try to plan for their future.  They need the truth about how civilian power works and how their current situation applies.  Maybe it's your opinion that navy quals have no bearing on their ability to qualify in a civilian plant, but they certainly do not need to be told that they are qualified to be a janitor.  Maybe it's that nuke mentality to eat your own children or pick-on the weak new "nub", but that's a load of Horse$hit and everybody knows it.  Bottom line is civilian power needs all of the good new people that it can find and immediately trying to discourage people on here doesn't help anybody.  I know that when I first started coming here I got the same attitute.  I didn't like it then and I don't like it now.  I don't expect anybody here to sugar coat it and tell me that I should apply for a Plant Manager position as a 6 year MM2, but I also don't expect to be told that I'm not qualified for anything in a civilian plant, because that simply isn't true, and Shift Manager or not, treating somebody like that just because they don't know any better is just plain wrong.

[co60slr]

MY final post and then I'm done with this one   I'll conceed that nothing you have done in the Nav makes you qualified for anything in the civilian world.  But it does give you the best intro course that you are likely to get.  My real issue here is one that SWO has introduced.  Why in the world does it seem like every new guy that comes here looking for info/assistance gets blasted (by a select few) simply because he mentions that he's qualified EOOW/EWS, etc?  Are those not relevent facts?  Is someone here implying that a Navy Lt has the same knowledge level or ability as some kid directly out of college or even high school?  I don't believe that.  Regardless, there are quite a few people that come here simply trying to learn about civilian power so that they can try to plan for their future.  They need the truth about how civilian power works and how their current situation applies.  Maybe it's your opinion that navy quals have no bearing on their ability to qualify in a civilian plant, but they certainly do not need to be told that they are qualified to be a janitor.  Maybe it's that nuke mentality to eat your own children or pick-on the weak new "nub", but that's a load of Horse$hit and everybody knows it.  Bottom line is civilian power needs all of the good new people that it can find and immediately trying to discourage people on here doesn't help anybody.  I know that when I first started coming here I got the same attitute.  I didn't like it then and I don't like it now.  I don't expect anybody here to sugar coat it and tell me that I should apply for a Plant Manager position as a 6 year MM2, but I also don't expect to be told that I'm not qualified for anything in a civilian plant, because that simply isn't true, and Shift Manager or not, treating somebody like that just because they don't know any better is just plain wrong.

I don't make the rules or define the culture.  The only real point here is that you prepare a resume based on what you've done.  You get a job offer based on your experience/quals...and of course on their prediction of your capabilities.  Then, you show up to the front door in civilian clothes and yes..."nub" is exactly the word to use.   There are MANY differences and I'm enjoying every minute learning all of them.   

When a new person shows up on your boat/ship and says "well, on [used ta fish], we did it THIS way", how do you feel?   Again, while not well articulated here (since people are posting anonymously), it's the same reaction.   LTs need not show up to ANY new job and think "hey, I'm here to save you".   Well...maybe "we" don't need saving.

The help is greatly needed in the Navy...AND Commercial World.  There's a much bigger picture that people are missing.   So, the forum members here can pretend they are filters...they're not.   However....it can be entertaining.   For comparison I was reviewing the NNPP Group on Facebook last night.  Real names, no anonymous...they seem to be much more polite (and informative).   Such is life...

[Smooth Operator]

I hear internet trolls have erectile dysfunction and that is why they do what they do, just to finally get a rise out of something.

[crusemm]

Thanks Smooth Operator, now I have to clean coffee off my monitor, (after it went through my nose too)

[Nuclear NASCAR]

MY final post and then I'm done with this one   I'll conceed that nothing you have done in the Nav makes you qualified for anything in the civilian world.  But it does give you the best intro course that you are likely to get.  My real issue here is one that SWO has introduced.  Why in the world does it seem like every new guy that comes here looking for info/assistance gets blasted (by a select few) simply because he mentions that he's qualified EOOW/EWS, etc?  Are those not relevent facts?  Is someone here implying that a Navy Lt has the same knowledge level or ability as some kid directly out of college or even high school?  I don't believe that.  Regardless, there are quite a few people that come here simply trying to learn about civilian power so that they can try to plan for their future.  They need the truth about how civilian power works and how their current situation applies.  Maybe it's your opinion that navy quals have no bearing on their ability to qualify in a civilian plant, but they certainly do not need to be told that they are qualified to be a janitor.  Maybe it's that nuke mentality to eat your own children or pick-on the weak new "nub", but that's a load of Horse$hit and everybody knows it.  Bottom line is civilian power needs all of the good new people that it can find and immediately trying to discourage people on here doesn't help anybody.  I know that when I first started coming here I got the same attitute.  I didn't like it then and I don't like it now.  I don't expect anybody here to sugar coat it and tell me that I should apply for a Plant Manager position as a 6 year MM2, but I also don't expect to be told that I'm not qualified for anything in a civilian plant, because that simply isn't true, and Shift Manager or not, treating somebody like that just because they don't know any better is just plain wrong.

I couldn't have said it better myself.  It also goes against what this site was created for.  to you and the increasing number who are bucking the trend. 

[number41]

Thanks NASCAR!!!! I'll continue, on a sort-of unrelated issue, then.  Ever notice that most guys hate "usta fish" stories?  I can usually count myself into that group.  However, it occurs to me that while many of us hate other people's stories about how other people do things at some other place in some other circumstance, MY plant spends a lot of money on benchmarking trips.  And, if I'm not mistaken, we are REQUIRED to review/consider this little thing called OE prior to starting a job.   Just a thought...............

[Smooth Operator]

Thanks Smooth Operator, now I have to clean coffee off my monitor, (after it went through my nose too)

Thanks, I just made that up too!!

But that is because I am a crafy ex-Enlisted nuke, not some LT.

[adrianI]

The whole point that Mike is trying to make, and he is correct, that your quals and experience in the Navy DO NOT in any way indicate your success potential as an instant SRO as compared to someone pulled up out of engineering, for example. The issue he has (correct me if I am wrong Mike) is when someone with certain quals coming out of the Navy has an expectation or entitlement feeling towards being an instant SRO, and look down on NLO as a possible path. The statistics are that 50%ish of ex Navy nukes do not make it through the program, either by their own drive/motivation or poor training at the station. Peach Bottom defies the statistics and we have a 100% pass rate due to an excellent training program. However, there is an individual component that plays heavily because a large part of ILT is self taught. So there is shared blame as to the 50% over all industry fail rate. There are some stations who's training philosophy is to put up 20 and hope to get 10 licenses. That is an old school way of thinking, but the fact of the matter is that it takes place out there. And what Mike is saying, is left to their own devices (ie self taught ILT), a Navy nuke has no better chance of passing than anyone else.

And I do disagree with Seth, this training is much harder than the Navy pipeline overall. Sure, GF and systems is standard power school stuff, but he also hasn't done his simulator training yet. Again I say, this is where the men are separated from the boys. This is where an instant like me, who has no clue how to even handle a vanilla scram in the plant, has to learn how to handle a full power ATWS with no level indication while there is a leak into the drywell with a bypassed containment in 6 months. Trust me, its hard. (But extremely fun and exciting).

What it all comes down to is a combination of the training program, which unfortunately is lacking at some stations, and the drive and ability of the individual. And frankly, many ex Navy people aren't up to the task of being a CRS in a nuclear power plant. And even if they do squeek by, their first mistake in requal and they will be sent to a desk.

Justin

I bet it helps if your STA notices that containment is broken???

[JustinHEMI05]

LMAO yes, and now that I am qualified STA, you better hope I catch it for ya.

[red1323]

Somewhat related:

If I had poor power school grades and slightly above average grades at prototype would doing a tour as a Shift Engineer at prototype (assuming I get accepted) be helpful in succeeding in a civilian career or are the two so different that it wouldn't be worth the 2 year investment?

[JustinHEMI05]

Are you asking if you should get out now or do a tour as shift eng? Get out now. From what I saw of a shift engineer, the experience would be of no use to us. Its primarily an administrative position.

[Gamecock]

Are you asking if you should get out now or do a tour as shift eng? Get out now. From what I saw of a shift engineer, the experience would be of no use to us. Its primarily an administrative position.

You are wrong.....and right.

There are vast differences between what is required of a shift eng between SC and NY.

Shift eng at NPTU Charleston is a tough job.  It is a real "Engineer" job because  Charleston is run by the navy.  

KSO is more administrative because the site is run by civilians.

Cheers,
GC

[JustinHEMI05]

Ah yes, I was only relating it to NPTU NY.

[red1323]

Thank you, that does answer some questions; I still have a lot to consider but this info has helped.