How would you fix the NNPP

[Preciousblue1965]

My A-School instructor (MMC Reneau) made chief in 5 years 8 months. One of our electrician masterchiefs was pinned master chief some time during his 11 year point. My old chief made it around 7 years. Its not common, no, but its definitely possible.

Yeah my buddy was doing 50-60 hours a week before he even got put on hours. Him and this other dude that just couldnt hack it were basically competing for the "I am trying the hardest" competition, and everyone actually pulled together to get them through. The other guy just couldnt hang with it after a while, and ended up getting converted to ET or something like that.

I served on the same ship as you A school Instructor.  In fact we were both on Drill team together.  Good guy, good operator.  Of course I also got to hear about his stories from shore leave.

[Jechtm]

'How would you fix the NNPP'

as for NNPTC:

Being here long enough I have seen that everyone's personal experience here is a bit different.
Examples: Different SLPO's, CD's, being on FEP, hours program, prior mastings, divorces, marriages, babies, debt, etc.

If everyone's personal experience is different here at NNPTC, has anyone here have the right to say "what would 'fix' the NNPP"?

I am still at NNPTC so I shouldn't bother to post but in my ignorant opinion,

NNPP cannot be 'fixed', it fixes you.

Am I being hypocritical, or should I just wait to post my opinion after I do my time?

[NukeLDO]

and just when I was beginning to think this thread was dead....

[HydroDave63]

Not really "dead"... just pining for the fjords!!

[shocker]

I'm a little too new in to pass judgement or make inflamatory posts... But I can't help but wonder if the environment in Great Lakes towards studying for tests and passing quals (battlestations) doesn't teach an attitude that promotes cheating and poor test making...

[OldHP]

I'm a little too new in to pass judgement or make inflamatory posts... But I can't help but wonder if the environment in Great Lakes towards studying for tests and passing quals (battlestations) doesn't teach an attitude that promotes cheating and poor test making...

I would find that extremely hard to believe.

[HydroDave63]

I'm a little too new in to pass judgement or make inflamatory posts... But I can't help but wonder if the environment in Great Lakes towards studying for tests and passing quals (battlestations) doesn't teach an attitude that promotes cheating and poor test making...

Ask the people that were denuked on the Truman...

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php?topic=22286.0

[Jechtm]

My son graduates NNPTC February 25th. He will be on hold for prototype for 6 months , or so he has been told. He will be living in his BEQ taking college classes during this time. All paid for by the Navy. He's lovin it. Thank you very much taxpayers!
The 12 Dec 2010 CREO list says all nuke fields are undermanned.

He gradumucates with me I wonder what section he is in =O

Also I was informed military pay is from taxes paid by big corporate companies.

[my name is.....]

He gradumucates with me I wonder what section he is in =O

Also I was informed military pay is from taxes paid by big corporate companies.

Corporations supposedly paying a significant amount of taxes is laughable. Especially the vast amounts of funds the military industrial complex uses, thank the Federal Reserve for those funds.

[Jechtm]

Corporations supposedly paying a significant amount of taxes is laughable. Especially the vast amounts of funds the military industrial complex uses, thank the Federal Reserve for those funds.

Thanks for the reply, now I know

[spekkio]

The fact that some in this thread not only think it's okay, but a good thing that some people go on 35-5's to pass the program speaks volumes about the issues in NNPP and how it will never be fixed. Most people don't like it when their entire lives are consumed by work, even when they like their jobs. It's no wonder that the nuke field is continuously hurting for people, and is constantly lowering standards and raising bonuses to meet goals.

I have friends who went through flight school -- the only school in the Navy that still boots people for poor performance routinely aside from BUD/S -- and they STILL had time to enjoy the beach and drink tons of bear. The nuclear pipeline makes life miserable for people for no reason other than because Rickover made it that way over 40 years ago.

Is it better to lengthen power school so Sailors can learn and retain more knowledge without spending every waking hour at work, or keep it short so we can keep the big-dick bragging rights for the guys who get 2.8's?

Prototype is worthless. This is routinely proven every time a new Sailor reports aboard and still doesn't know his ass from his elbow. It's time to decommission those wastes of money...Sailors can have an "off-crew" period at their squadrons and then report aboard and start the qual process there. At least the boats won't have to undo the loads of negative training they get at prototype.

Being in shape is a Navy requirement; ergo, the Navy should be giving you time to work out during the work day without extending your time at work. Expecting people to stay in shape during their free time for a work requirement is asinine, but it's standard nuke mentality.

At the end of the day, though, there's no 'fixing' NNPP. It produces Sailors that have not caused a reactor accident in the history of Navy nuclear power, and verbatim procedural compliance has only cost the Navy 1 submarine (the Thresher). That fact alone is going to prevent any significant change to the program from occurring.

[OldHP]

Being in shape is a Navy requirement; ergo, the Navy should be giving you time to work out during the work day without extending your time at work. Expecting people to stay in shape during their free time for a work requirement is asinine, but it's standard nuke mentality. 

"Beinig in shape" is a life requirement; ergo, YOU, must make time for it.  It is NOT a standard nuke mentality, it is a standard for having a life and seeing your grandchildren grow up.

[imthehoopa]

Being in shape is a Navy requirement; ergo, the Navy should be giving you time to work out during the work day without extending your time at work. Expecting people to stay in shape during their free time for a work requirement is asinine, but it's standard nuke mentality. 

I don't know if they're changing anything in South Carolina, but as far as the NY Prototypes they're making it so students can work out during their manditory plus time. The on-shift section is going to be providing someone to supervise to make sure people aren't just hanging out in the gym to get away from work. Wish it would've been this way a few months ago when I went to section. Plus time usually is a waste of time anyway. They tell you that you should get checkouts on your plus time, but most sections' staff won't go very much out of their way to help a student from a different section.

-imthehoopa

[Smooth Operator]

Yeah but you can still study and walk stuff down during plus time?

Right?

Call me crazy, but I rather just get qualified and get on staff hours....but having the gym available is a nice touch!

[Neutron_Herder]

The fact that some in this thread not only think it's okay, but a good thing that some people go on 35-5's to pass the program speaks volumes about the issues in NNPP and how it will never be fixed. Most people don't like it when their entire lives are consumed by work, even when they like their jobs. It's no wonder that the nuke field is continuously hurting for people, and is constantly lowering standards and raising bonuses to meet goals.

I was on 35-5's for almost my entire time at NNPS.  The nice thing about being young and stupid (some might call it naive) is that I didn't really have a life in the first place.  They told me to work that many hours so I did.  I like to think it was more about learning time management and priorities than just straight schoolwork...

I have friends who went through flight school -- the only school in the Navy that still boots people for poor performance routinely aside from BUD/S -- and they STILL had time to enjoy the beach and drink tons of bear. The nuclear pipeline makes life miserable for people for no reason other than because Rickover made it that way over 40 years ago.

From the enlisted side of the house I think was also done purposely.  What's the average age of the enlisted person going through school?  18 or 19?  The hours keep them out of trouble.  This isn't college where they can go running off to do whatever they want once they get done.  Plus, please don't compare Nukes to aviators...  it turns my stomach.  Do a tour on an aircraft carrier and you'll know why.

Is it better to lengthen power school so Sailors can learn and retain more knowledge without spending every waking hour at work, or keep it short so we can keep the big-dick bragging rights for the guys who get 2.8's?

No, it's not better to lengthen it.  Put the standards back where they should be, and deal with the attrition that comes along with it.  The world needs paint chippers too.

Prototype is worthless. This is routinely proven every time a new Sailor reports aboard and still doesn't know his ass from his elbow. It's time to decommission those wastes of money...Sailors can have an "off-crew" period at their squadrons and then report aboard and start the qual process there. At least the boats won't have to undo the loads of negative training they get at prototype.

I completely agree on this point.  Prototype is pretty much useless.  I think it should go away.  My opinion is that there should be a three or four month systems class specifically targeted at the platform the Sailor is going to.  Then MMs go the ship.  EMs, ETs, and officers should then go to the respective FIDE and spend a month or two getting familiar with their respective panels...  then they go off to the boat.

They really aren't "prototypes" anymore, their "used-to-types".  It's more of a history lesson than it is a real learning experience.

At the end of the day, though, there's no 'fixing' NNPP. It produces Sailors that have not caused a reactor accident in the history of Navy nuclear power, and verbatim procedural compliance has only cost the Navy 1 submarine (the Thresher). That fact alone is going to prevent any significant change to the program from occurring.

I know for fact that NR is really looking into how to "fix" things.  It takes time and money, neither one of which they have much of. 

Verbatim procedural compliance is there because even back in the "old" days Sailors weren't taught a lot of the "whys" behind procedures until a lot further on into their careers.  With the way procedures have been dumbed down, the reasons behind actions are being taken away.  The end result is that a lot of the operators out there today wouldn't be able to find out why they're taking an action even if they wanted to...  they just have to know that it has to be done.  It's all good as long as the procedures cover the situation they're in, but God help 'em if they end up in a place the procedure didn't think about.

[OldHP]

Verbatim procedural compliance is there because even back in the "old" days Sailors weren't taught a lot of the "whys" behind procedures until a lot further on into their careers.  With the way procedures have been dumbed down, the reasons behind actions are being taken away.  The end result is that a lot of the operators out there today wouldn't be able to find out why they're taking an action even if they wanted to...  they just have to know that it has to be done.  It's all good as long as the procedures cover the situation they're in, but God help 'em if they end up in a place the procedure didn't think about.

Totally agree!  Even in the commercial world, now, the "Human Factored" procedures spell every thing out; however, one little glitch and the user is left "holding the bag"!

[JustinHEMI05]

Totally agree!  Even in the commercial world, now, the "Human Factored" procedures spell every thing out; however, one little glitch and the user is left "holding the bag"!

Difference is, at a commercial plant, the operator can handle it.

[HydroDave63]

Difference is, at a commercial plant, the operator can handle it.

Only if they were cool, in-shape handsome aviators in Ray-Bans^TM

Otherwise they'd just be bragging about their torque wrench

[Cycoticpenguin]

I served on the same ship as you A school Instructor.  In fact we were both on Drill team together.  Good guy, good operator.  Of course I also got to hear about his stories from shore leave.

cool I've always wondered if he ended up picking up officer or getting out (I used to pick his brain for hours. He stated very plainly he was bored being enlisted ).

He's the only chief I've ever met that really seemed to embody being a chief 100% of the time. to this day, when I think of a  chief, he comes to mind



I agree with the getting rid of prototype... sorta. We "filtered" out a lot of crazy people while I was there. (im talkin legit crazy, one guy put a knife to a sr cheif and told him he was gonna kill him, I actually found a kid in his cubicle just slashing away at his wrists with a knife. It was atrocious to see. Other things were going on as well).

I think maintenance schools would be better really. We DO do more then just stand watch on the boat!! during a shut down period, we had to do valve cuts. No one on board had performed on before(literally! not even our chiefs , and the crusty old masterchiefs werent about to show us... ) , so they had to send a few of us to some special valve cutting school (waste of time and money if you ask me).  instead of prototype, go to steam plant maintenance school for mechanics, some I&C school for ET's, and whatever equivalent electrical school for EM's.

Not sure about officers though. FIDE school?

[Marlin]

At the end of the day, though, there's no 'fixing' NNPP. It produces Sailors that have not caused a reactor accident in the history of Navy nuclear power, and verbatim procedural compliance has only cost the Navy 1 submarine (the Thresher). That fact alone is going to prevent any significant change to the program from occurring.

   How did verbatim compliance cause the Thresher disaster? That was the incident that led to "SubSafe" not a nuclear issue and not a procedural issue.

[Cycoticpenguin]

At the end of the day, though, there's no 'fixing' NNPP. It produces Sailors that have not caused a reactor accident in the history of Navy nuclear power, and verbatim procedural compliance has only cost the Navy 1 submarine (the Thresher). That fact alone is going to prevent any significant change to the program from occurring.

16 actually. Thresher had nothing to do with operators.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUBSAFE

good reading here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Thresher_(SSN-593)

[spekkio]

"Beinig in shape" is a life requirement; ergo, YOU, must make time for it.  It is NOT a standard nuke mentality, it is a standard for having a life and seeing your grandchildren grow up.

No, it's not a life requirement. If I decided to get fat and out of shape, most private companies outside the athletic world won't fire me over it.

Yes, being in shape is required for police and fire fighters, but both of these professions have time for people to actually work out. And cops who work more than 40 hours a week get paid overtime.

I would gladly trade you five hours a week out of forty for you to keep in shape. Just give me back all my tax dollars spent on free of charge fitness gyms, swimming pools, golf courses, indoor basketball courts, baseball fields, and all those other taxpayer subsidised physical fitness amenities.

Again, in case you haven't noticed, being in shape is a job requirement for people in the military. It would be asinine for the Navy to mandate that Sailors, many of whom make less than minimum wage even if they worked a 'normal' work week, to pay for their own workout facilities. Even the aforementioned police and fire fighting agencies provide their members with fitness facilities...do you want your tax money back from them, too?

If Sailors don't stay in shape, they get fired. It doesn't matter how much nuke oolies they know or how good they are at doing maintenance. Fail 3 PFA's and you're out. Whether or not you choose to acknowledge it, fitness is a part of the job. And while you might consider those 5 hours an enjoyable activity and thus undeserving of salary, there are many who would disagree with you.

I tell you what...you can have your 5 hours of tax money back if you'll give nuke Sailors some more tax dollars for all the times they had to work past standard working hours in port, on weekends, and then went out to sea to essentially be at work 24/7. You're getting more than your money's worth out of that E-5/E-6 salary you're supporting.

Another good one, why in the hell are my tax dollars paying for some non-qual nub student to get a minimum of six months of easy training with three and five day mini-vacations every month when their dink non-qual ass could be field daying a boat for six days out of seven when tied up to a pier or underway?!?!!?

Why are my tax dollars paying these goobers to go to college for six months while they are on prototype hold lounging around in a BEQ? They could be in the fleet field daying and giving the qualified and hard to retain sea going nukes a break?!?!?!?!

This proves my point. Perhaps you define 'working hard' as putting in over 80 hours a week; I don't. Your tax dollars are well spent if they spent a normal full-time work week at training, considering what an E-3 and E-4 makes as a salary.

As for the prototype hold, chalk it up to another reason they need to get rid of prototypes.

Bravo, if you're too stupid to pass nuke school in six months studying as much as you think you can handle you don't belong anywhere near a nuclear reactor, the fleet always needs more paint chippers, mess cranks and stores handlers.

I'm not talking about people failing -- not that many people fail with the standard being at 2.5/4.0. I'm saying that the guy who gets a 2.6 to pass really only knows 65% of the required knowledge. What is wrong with lengthening the program to raise the average score higher and thus produce, on average, more knowledgeable operators and doing it with a less miserable process?

From the enlisted side of the house I think was also done purposely.  What's the average age of the enlisted person going through school?  18 or 19?  The hours keep them out of trouble.  This isn't college where they can go running off to do whatever they want once they get done.  Plus, please don't compare Nukes to aviators...  it turns my stomach.  Do a tour on an aircraft carrier and you'll know why.

You can easily give structure without mandating every hour be spent at work. Many other communities in the Navy do it -- that's why junior enlisted students live in the barracks, have curfews, inspections, etc.

Some of my best friends are aviators. They're generally a lot less uptight about things and don't like making their own lives miserable for no reason.

No, it's not better to lengthen it.  Put the standards back where they should be, and deal with the attrition that comes along with it.  The world needs paint chippers too.

Yea, this is a real easy stance for people on the outside to take. Right now there are boats on the waterfront who have nukes working well over 100 hours a week to accomplish maintenance because we're in the 80% range for manning. So when you raise the standards and cause attrition to raise, where are you going to get people to stand watch and keep the plant together?

16 actually. Thresher had nothing to do with operators.

The casualty on the Thresher was caused by a material deficiency; however, the operators secured steam to the main engines because the procedure told them to do it, despite the fact that doing so disabled the ability for the boat to remain afloat. Whether or not the moisturized air froze pipes, that action in that situation put the ship at risk.

Following the Thresher incident, NR actually revised quite a few procedures in the RPM.

[Jechtm]

I've been overweight a bunch of times through out my life.

I find life easier when I was not fat.

 SO, I workout to stay in shape for me not the Navy.

Stop placing PFA standards above your standards.  

Live a healthier, happier life for yourself, not your job.

[OldHP]

No, it's not a life requirement. If I decided to get fat and out of shape, most private companies outside the athletic world won't fire me over it.

Perhaps I should have stated it as a "LIFE" requirement, notice the reference to seeing your grandchildren (or in my case new ggchild - I was trying to be nice) grow up.

And wrong, in todays world most companies would give you about the same time as 3 PFAs to get back in shape because of insurance company requirements.

Oh, ABTW, where were you when we lost Thresher or Scorpion?

[MacGyver]