Women on submarines

[730SMAG]

Whether or not I was being sarcastic will remain one of the world's great mysteries.

Anybody else think the idea to have female-only subs is a bit ridiculous?

I'd find it ridiculous just on the training and tradition basis. 

[Cycoticpenguin]

Whether or not I was being sarcastic will remain one of the world's great mysteries.

Anybody else think the idea to have female-only subs is a bit ridiculous?

ridiculous is an understatement.  Its not going to happen. Theres no reason for it.

[spekkio]

ridiculous is an understatement.  Its not going to happen. Theres no reason for it.

Plus it would be contrary to diversity, which ADM Mullen and ADM Roughead have ordered to be the most important initiative in the Navy.

[Gamecock]

Whether or not I was being sarcastic will remain one of the world's great mysteries.

Anybody else think the idea to have female-only subs is a bit ridiculous?

Quoting myself....

It takes 15+ years to grow a CO......

Who will command your all-female boat?

It takes 10+ years to grow an XO....

Who will be #2 on your all-female boat?

It takes 7+ years to grow a DH.....

Get my point???

An all-female boat can't happen for a long, long time.

Cheers,
GC

[Cycoticpenguin]

Your point about WWII Stuff isnt very valid because they were not nuclear submarines dude....

Back then it was "just another boat" that happened to be able to go under water for half an hour on batteries.




Maybe its just me, but why the hell is the Navy so caught up on being so politically correct all of a sudden. It is NOT a business, it is a war machine meant to spear head any attack on anyone anywhere in the world. Why are we so caught that we have an equal amount of white/black/latin/hispanic/asian/arabic/etc on there, thats not the point.

[Gamecock]

Your point about WWII Stuff isnt very valid because they were not nuclear submarines dude....

Back then it was "just another boat" that happened to be able to go under water for half an hour on batteries.




Maybe its just me, but why the hell is the Navy so caught up on being so politically correct all of a sudden. It is NOT a business, it is a war machine meant to spear head any attack on anyone anywhere in the world. Why are we so caught that we have an equal amount of white/black/latin/hispanic/asian/arabic/etc on there, thats not the point.

Because "Big Navy" believes that the demographics of the navy should mirror the demographics of society, in all ranks.  

If anyone cares to hear my real unfiltered thoughts about this "diversity initiative" stuff, start a topic in the GM navy section.

[DDMurray]

Back then it was "just another boat" that happened to be able to go under water for half an hour on batteries.

This over-simplification shows that you have no understanding, or appreciation, whatsoever of what it means to be a submariner.  I'd prefer you leave it at "the sub fleet saved our butts in the early stages of WWII". 

WRT to women on subs.  I look at it as it's not something I'd like my daughter or sister to do.  That doesn't mean it's wrong, but it will lead to more situations where guys will be distracted from their primary duty over worries about who's tapping the new girl.

[drayer54]

This over-simplification shows that you have no understanding, or appreciation, whatsoever of what it means to be a submariner. WRT to women on subs.  I look at it as it's not something I'd like my daughter or sister to do.  That doesn't mean its wrong, but it will lead to more situations where guys will be distracted from their primary duty over worries about who's tapping the new girl.

This over-simplification of the surface navy shows that you have no understanding or appreciation of what it means to be on a crew with both men and women.  Sailor tapping is your reason? Seriously?

The Reagan, Enterprise, Patricia Schroeder and Vinson are all out  and about right now and onboard those ships we have deployment couples, in-port buddies , and some unduly familiar relationships in progress. Every time a new girl checks in she can go spend her evening being reviewed and mingling with the male clientele at the trendy "Club Mess Decks," not to be confused with the "Motel Fan Room." Those new girls get checked out and discussed in ways that nobody would ever want a daughter discussed, agreed. However, why do all submariners have this regal attitude that their beloved old boat should be above that? The rest of the diversity initiative based co-ed and equal opportunity Navy is getting by all while being a global force for good. The rest of the navy isn't swabbing decks in dress whites while singing musicals as we skip from port to port. They look back on the situation and think about how hard they worked and stick their nose to the air and think women can't be trusted to do that.

Women on ships do bring issues forward, the same issues that my old ship, the Love Boat faced in 1994 when women began serving onboard carriers. The questions that they asked were pretty similar and the guys like me were upset because it meant we had to wear more clothes and speak in a more PC manner. The questions of ability to swing valves and high tendency of stork visits and the effect it would have on a small crew are valid. However, the MCM class of ship seems to work it out with a similar sized crew.  
I just don't think that the dating and casual relationship angle between sailors is going to sway anyone away from putting a woman on a boat. I am in the crowd that would like to see an end to sailors "tapping" sailors, but this is a Navy issue that isn't on the top priority list of the leadership.

Submarines could just implement the effective measure that my ship did, place neatly done posters by the shipboard High School Journalism/Media Dept. that say "Shipmates, Not Dates!" Everybody thought twice about sailor tapping after seeing those.......

[Cycoticpenguin]

Murray -> my point was that sub CO's are now nukes exclusively. I was NOT making light of what submariners do. My point was the Sub itself, not really the crew. Would you trust a diesel crew to man a nuke boat? That was my point.

[drayer54]

I'm a numbers guy, I make a living parsing statistics....
So these numbers tell me a lot,...
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:WeAJo839qIUJ:https://www.persnet.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/5E76F8C5-B291-4295-81CC-39406C862BB7/69640/PregnancySurvey07ExecutiveBrief.ppt+single+pregnancy+rates+in+us+navy&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj38IJEwc7FT5mJYgT_4PbQk4S5WLB3hvLRGPGIJxsVzIugWhDywxT5eFiZ-YfAvYOSXoF4aDHO-ropNJ13sWAm7Os9DAsWke8jjs5pHhYNSPUC1ns-kL57oh6Z9lmKkZ9E1kz8&sig=AHIEtbQAX9XSe2geFaAxy-GENXdZhSz8Iw
This was not an easy address to work around, it may even become a dead link when the Navy guys who watch these threads get a load of it, then again I may be a bit too suspect of intentions,....
But, these are some seriously parsed statistics,...

I threw my BS flag at the screen when I saw the slide that said "This debunks the myth that female sailors will get pregnant to avoid deployment."
I hold Marssim accountable for the screen damage that happened during this slideshow, bill is in the mail . I was glad to see the 13% of males who wanted out of the Nav due to Big Navy rewarding unplanned pregnancies with extended shore tours. I think it's good that were making it possible to dodge a deployment and a shipyard with first enlistment shore tours or dodging sea all-together with back to back pregnancies. This is a good use of the training pipeline and it's good for shore billets. 

[Cycoticpenguin]

I served with Barbel and Blueback sailors,....

The answer is yes,...

All three of them were sharp enough to make it through the NNPP if they had chosen to,...

That "best of the best of the best" NNPP kool-aid they're serving you guys is getting long on chest thumping nowadays,...

The fact that they "could" doesnt mean they did. We arent trained on just academics man, you should be wiser then that.  Average, run of the mill coners could not complete the NNPP, same as the average run of the mill airdale could not either. 

You dont get to pick and choose which sailors go where, we are speaking fleet wide. While there are notable exceptions, we, simply put, ARE the best of the best of the best. *Thumps chest*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXRi28W-ENY

[DDMurray]

This over-simplification of the surface navy shows that you have no understanding or appreciation of what it means to be on a crew with both men and women.  Sailor tapping is your reason? Seriously?

The Reagan, Enterprise, Patricia Schroeder and Vinson are all out  and about right now and onboard those ships we have deployment couples, in-port buddies , and some unduly familiar relationships in progress. Every time a new girl checks in she can go spend her evening being reviewed and mingling with the male clientele at the trendy "Club Mess Decks," not to be confused with the "Motel Fan Room." Those new girls get checked out and discussed in ways that nobody would ever want a daughter discussed, agreed. However, why do all submariners have this regal attitude that their beloved old boat should be above that? The rest of the diversity initiative based co-ed and equal opportunity Navy is getting by all while being a global force for good. The rest of the navy isn't swabbing decks in dress whites while singing musicals as we skip from port to port. They look back on the situation and think about how hard they worked and stick their nose to the air and think women can't be trusted to do that.

Women on ships do bring issues forward, the same issues that my old ship, the Love Boat faced in 1994 when women began serving onboard carriers. The questions that they asked were pretty similar and the guys like me were upset because it meant we had to wear more clothes and speak in a more PC manner. The questions of ability to swing valves and high tendency of stork visits and the effect it would have on a small crew are valid. However, the MCM class of ship seems to work it out with a similar sized crew.  
I just don't think that the dating and casual relationship angle between sailors is going to sway anyone away from putting a woman on a boat. I am in the crowd that would like to see an end to sailors "tapping" sailors, but this is a Navy issue that isn't on the top priority list of the leadership.

Submarines could just implement the effective measure that my ship did, place neatly done posters by the shipboard High School Journalism/Media Dept. that say "Shipmates, Not Dates!" Everybody thought twice about sailor tapping after seeing those.......

Our "regal" attitude probably comes from the fact that submariners typically feel we are superior to our surface counterparts.  The fact that we are is immaterial.  The attitude allows us to excel where others give up.  We both have the same jobs: 1) Keep the core covered.  2) Answer the ordered bell.  Any "social" problems are made worse on a sub due to the smaller crew and tighter quarters.  "Tapping" was used for effect.  If it hurts your sensitivities I could use more politically correct terminology, but it's a problem that is inevitable IMHO.  Now back to audit preps.

[spekkio]

The fact that they "could" doesnt mean they did. We arent trained on just academics man, you should be wiser then that.  Average, run of the mill coners could not complete the NNPP, same as the average run of the mill airdale could not either. 

You dont get to pick and choose which sailors go where, we are speaking fleet wide. While there are notable exceptions, we, simply put, ARE the best of the best of the best. *Thumps chest*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXRi28W-ENY

Yea man, actually learning 62.5% of the curriculum was SO HARD.

[goobs22xx]

Yea man, actually learning 62.5% of the curriculum was SO HARD.

The required gpa is irrelevant to the point that he doesn't think that others could do it.

[Cycoticpenguin]

The required gpa is irrelevant to the point that he doesn't think that others could do it.

Exactly.... Some people in my NLO class couldnt pass it... Im 100% confident of this.


oops.

[Mike_Koehler]

Here we go, ready or not........

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/naval-submarine-base-new-london-in-conn-welcomes-1st-female-officers-for-sub-training/2011/05/09/AFEm87YG_story.html


Mike

[FishyT]

I apologize for not reading this entire thread (it's pretty long and I have the midwatch, so I need to get some sleep o.O), but I just wanted to throw in some personal experience with women on boats.
In fall 2010, I rode on the HMCS Corner Brook (SSK878). It's one of the pride of the Canadian submarine fleet (ie, one of 2 that actually get out to sea). I was onboard for about 2 weeks during an exercise that my boat (Memphis) and her were doing. On the Corner Brook were 3 women that I dealt with on a regular basis. They didn't have a special berthing, they didn't get any special treatment, and they were just as rude and crude as the other sailors onboard. In the Canadian Sub Fleet, men and women aren't men and women, they're all submariners (or SPUTs, their equivalent to NUBs).
Now, before I get flamed on my first post, I will point out that Canadians /are/ a slightly different culture than us. Though not nearly as different as they like to think. Our culture (or if nothing else, our Navy) is actually more uptight about the male/female relations thing than they were. But the women on the Corner Brook didn't get any preferencial treatment, and I think that to succeed in this endeavour, the US Navy needs to have the same mindset.
Everyone onboard the Canadian subs were volunteers from the surface fleet, by the way. You actually have to put in a request and be screened to join the sub force...and it's difficult to do, no matter who you are.
Do I think that women on boats is a good idea? Ehh. Do I think it's a bad idea? Ehh. Does the concept kind of worry me? Most certainly. There are quite a few guys that I know who aren't fit to work with women, let alone be deployed with them. We have quite a few things to worry about, especially with submariners being, well, submariners. If you've ever met a guy on a boat, you know what I mean (can't speak for the surface fleet, I don't know anyone from up there).
It's progress, which is something our Navy fights on a daily basis. Good or bad, it is change. My brother is on the Maine, and my good friend is on the Georgia...Hope they survive. 

[retired nuke]

My last joint mission with the Canadian Navy was 30+ yrs ago. But I do remember there was a bar aboard their ship (surface)... and that while off duty, and in port, drinks were cheap (beer - 25c, shots 10c)  

We had an A-ganger from GA that grew up on moonshine, match their Engine Rm Chief shot for shot for 20+ shots....

Yup, the Canadian Navy is different  

[bigdog46]

See the link from the Tri City Herald

http://www.tri-cityherald.com/2012/06/17/1990330/women-say-theyre-fitting-in-on.html

[Mike_Koehler]

Notice how they are all Junior Officers? In about 5-7 years get ready for an all female sub. They are grooming the CO/XO first, the next group will be Dept. Heads then the last group through will be the Div-O's. The enlisteds will start to run through about the time the Dept. Heads do...... All female except CO/XO and E-7/8's at first then final rotation will be all female......  Just my prediction.....

Mike

[Marlin]

Notice how they are all Junior Officers? In about 5-7 years get ready for an all female sub. They are grooming the CO/XO first, the next group will be Dept. Heads then the last group through will be the Div-O's. The enlisteds will start to run through about the time the Dept. Heads do...... All female except CO/XO and E-7/8's at first then final rotation will be all female......  Just my prediction.....

Mike

Doubt it, think personell rotation. This was about removing barriers not creating new ones.

my 

[Gamecock]

Notice how they are all Junior Officers? In about 5-7 years get ready for an all female sub. They are grooming the CO/XO first, the next group will be Dept. Heads then the last group through will be the Div-O's. The enlisteds will start to run through about the time the Dept. Heads do...... All female except CO/XO and E-7/8's at first then final rotation will be all female......  Just my prediction.....

Mike

FYI...we've had women in the surface navy for many years....even have women CO's...... women are at all levels of the chain of command in the surface fleet.....

We don't have any all women surface ships!

Just sayin'

[GLW]

...We don't have any all women surface ships!....

I always thought all surface ships were manned by women!!!!!!

[Gamecock]

I always thought all surface ships were manned by women!!!!!!

      That was a good one 

[NukaTex]

I know this thread is a bit old, but I thought some might want to read up on the lack of responsibility  involved in this gender diversity fiasco

http://www.cmrlink.org/WomenInCombat.asp?docID=385