The Last Outage!

[DainJer]

My point is...It's a great idea to call for solidarity without collective bargaining, or "legal" representation. If it happens, you'll be doing something I'm fairly certain that hasn't been successful in the 100+ years labor has attempted to pull together and use the strength of many.

Is anyone in this business ready to hold out for a year to prove their solidarity? Are you ready to pass by decent paying jobs for the good of your fellow techs?

I do not think so...IMHO

You will always have a select few who will scrape the bottom of any job barrel they walk past. As long as there are enough bottom scrapers to "short" staff outages...the companies will continue on, watching your bank accounts deplete...waiting on you to come back....for even less than you left for.

I think creating your own organization, with the backing of another major organization is the only way you will see the kind of pull needed to turn heads.

By creating your own organization...you can write by-laws and bargain for yourself, you can set up training and certifications, but without giving this beast a name...noone will recognize it.

http://www.webshells.com/ocaw/txts/doc9939.htm

a little blast from the past...

[Already Gone]

I want to be very careful and clear in saying that I am not proposing any unionization effort.  At the same time, I'm not trying to discourage it either.  But here's where I see this discussion going;
1) A large number of people see that changes need to be made.
2) Just about everyone recognizes that nothing will change without a group effort.
3) We have never been able to accomplish group change voluntarily, and without formal organization.
4) We are mostly a conservative bunch, and that makes us Union-phobic.
5) Our trade is highly technical, vitally important, and drastically short of people, yet we are among the lowest paid of all the trades on site.

With all this in mind, I'd like to offer my opinion on the situation.  As a life-long Republican, I have philosophical differences with most Unions.  I think that has put me at a disadvantage because it has kept me from learning enough about unions to make the right decision.  Because of my poitical leanings, I have been cheating myself out of the ability to make the best informed decision for the good of my family and our financial security.  I have only allowed myself to hear the negative, and ignored any positive aspects of union membership. 
From what I have learned recently, I can't say that the decision either way is a slam dunk.  For all the bad things I have heard and believed about unions, there are an equal number of good things.  Unions have training programs, negotiated pay scales, medical benefits, pensions, and a lot more.  I don't have any of those things.

Now, I hear the argument that we can get better money and treatment by showing that we are more professional and better trained.  But, where has that gotten those of us who are?  My NRRPT has gotten me a buck and a half per hour at most.  Not all sites pay that, and those who do would give it to me anyway because I have over seven years as a Senior Tech.  Ironically, the only site that has paid me that kick without giving it to the 7 year seniors, is also the only site that doesn't care that I have been inactive for the past eleven years.
The fact that I don't back out once I confirm, and don't drag up without approval doesn't get me anything either.  I still get the same pay and other consideration as the slug who no-showed them last time.
We have to face the fact that our compensation - either as a group or individually - has nothing to do with our value to the companies.  It is strictly market based.  As long as someone is willing to work for $20 & $80, we all have to.  Sitting out a season won't help except in the short term.  A site may kick up the money to get techs there, but as soon as they can get staffed the money goes away.  We've all seen the pay rates drop for an SGRP or other long jobs, because they get staffed.  What makes your work worth less that year than it was the year before?  It wasn't because we got dumber or less professional.  It is just the market wringing out the last dime.

In the end, the decision to unionize is too close to call for some people, and doing so will not solve our problems overnight.   I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure that if we continue to do as we have been doing, we will continue to get what we have been getting.

[JassenB]

As long as someone is willing to work for $20 & $80, we all have to.

Is that the wage that awaits me once I get my 3 years and become a Senior???

Maybe I should go back to being an electrician.  
(just kidding!)

Out of the ~800 techs on the road, would it even be possible to round up 240 required to organize?

-Jassen

[Already Gone]

What do you mean "just kidding"?  Do you know a Journeyman Electrician who makes less than $28.00 without having to leave home?

[Chimera]

I agree with Beer Court . . . the case is too close to call.  The main difference between us is that I have been in the unions as an HP Tech. 

Yeah, we had a contract with gauranteed paid holidays and a preset payscale.  The scale had nothing to do with capability - only longevity in the union. 

The main thing that keeps me away from the issue of unionization is the hierarchy needed to run the union.  It has been my considered opinion that the people I didn't like working for/with would the ones to rise to the top and take control of the union.  They are more political animals than techs and know how to prosper in that environment than most techs would.  That has been an over-riding concern since we (HP Techs) first stated talking about organizing back in the late 70's. 

While I liked the pay benefits derived from the union contracts, the union did nothing else for me.  I would rather have the ability to "vote" with my feet concerning the desirability of a given contract than have a union structure tell me where I had to go and what I would have to accept as pay.

Another side note about unionizing: Most craft that I know report to the local hall as "travelers" when they arrive at the new job site.  Per diem tends to disappear (or be greatly reduced) when you work out of the "local" hall.  I've heard enough pipefitters, mechanics and electricians complain about that in the past.  I also wouldn't like the idea of being put on the bottom of the elegibility list if I passed on a particular job.

Talk to the travelers that work around you to get a better picture of the "benefits" of unionizing the road techs.

I, like Beer Court, tend to be conservative.  And, just like Beer Court, I really don't like the idea of unionizing at all.

[DainJer]

True...Being a Union Carpenter, We receive no Per diem when traveling to nuke plants.

The pay scale is actually fairly close once that is taken into consideration.

Also remember, we pay 4% to dues..based on "gross" not "net".

so...say Dresden, carpenters make around $33 on the check, a tech making $20 and $80 per day PD works out pretty close.

[Already Gone]

I never said I wouldn't join a union.  I just don't think we have the solidarity to start one.  If there is an existing union that could represent us as we are instead of trying to squeeze us square pegs into their round holes, I'm ready to listen.
The problem is that most unions are used to dealing with only a few trades.  They just don't have experience dealing with a trade that is unique to nuclear work.   Even though most union HP's belong to the IBEW, you can't travel as an HP with an IBEW tramp card.  That part of the IBEW only reps electricians and some welders.  Even an inside electrician can't work out of some locals because they are for outside linemen only.  They are just not set up for us.  So, even with an existing union, it will take some effort to organize.  Me, I'm not interested in doing that kind of work.  I'm not a politician.

[RAD-GHOST]

Hey JassenB, In case you aren't aware of the current wage situation out their, a 3.1 qualification isn't even a guarantee of $20.00/hr & $80.00/day!  Over two decades of qual's here, which will more than likely get you that money, but again, no guarantee's.  Look forward to a prosperous future on the road!

I have to go check my browser to see if my selected language is english!

Later, RG!

[JassenB]

Hey JassenB, In case you aren't aware of the current wage situation out their, a 3.1 qualification isn't even a guarantee of $20.00/hr & $80.00/day!  Over two decades of qual's here, which will more than likely get you that money, but again, no guarantee's.  Look forward to a prosperous future on the road!

Actually, I'm just now starting to become aware of the wage situation. At first I thought it was dependent strictly on the staffing firm and the utility, but I'm discovering a general downwards depression in wages for rad con personnel, based on my knowledge of wages from 3 years ago when I first came to civilian life.

I'm working as a haz mat deconner right now, and I'm about to take a $3.50 per hour cut in pay from doing local environmental work (which is highly sporadic, and is summer seasonal around here) to go back to the nuclear world as a rad deconner, but the per diem swings it for me.

Heck, two years ago I was making $17 as a biotech plant operator (exact same job as a nuclear auxiliary/non-licensed operator). I thought the idea was for my wages to gradually go up over time, not to dip back into single digit dollar figures.

I'm heavily exploring career options right now, and really trying to find a direction where the pay is high enough to replace my wife's income relatively soon.

But, in the meantime, I still have *my* bills to pay. I realize that this is exactly the attitude being discussed in this thread, and if there was some effort towards professional recognition or unionization, I would definitely join in, but I don't see something like that coming together yet.

My wife and I are fortunate in that she has a very high paying job, and we have over 12 months worth of living expenses in the bank, so we could survive a walkout/strike. But, with my wife's medical problems and other issues, I have no desire to tap into that savings yet, so I have made the decision to go on the road again, but for shorter stints so I can still be home some (I was at Brookhaven in May, but left because of said "issues" on the home front).

Toodles!
-JassenB

[Surveyors_mato]

Hey, let's kick this one around some more.

   Bartlett being (almost) the only game in town, it's worh another look. BC said that unionization had been talked about but could get together. Why? I think primarily because techs are all over the country and the one side has no knowledge of what the other is doing. This would really require only a few people and a common site, as to pass information vital to "the cause".

   Who could this be? It. must be a long standing, well respected and well known, Sr tech. One who has worked most if not all the plants. One that every one of us knows or at least has heard of. It would take one person in the upper levels of one of the companies, to recognize and support the movment. It would take legal representation.

   It would take...........................aw hell who am I kidding, It would take an act of God. Well at least I got to practice my typing skills. Have a great day!

[RRhoads]

yeah!!
i'am not totally against it but???
Lets see...
My wage goes to $33/hr (hypothetically)
I loose my Diem
I have to pay my Union dues on my gross w/ OT
And i have one less write off at the end of the year?
And i am GUESSING that the Carp due that travels does NOT get travel pay either???
Where do i sign up???
I think a better approach whould be what Diablo did this outage...although i didn't go....Cut out the Head shop & hire Temp...
What was the rate there???
Mid 30's per hr & like 140 a day per diem & travel pay?
No union + no bartlett= higher wage & higher diem!!

[UncaBuffalo]

I think a better approach whould be what Diablo did this outage...although i didn't go....Cut out the Head shop & hire Temp...
What was the rate there???
Mid 30's per hr & like 140 a day per diem & travel pay?
No union + no bartlett= higher wage & higher diem!!

I'd like to see the utilities explore this if it means a better deal for the techs, but one note...you DO pay union dues at Diablo.

[Nuclear NASCAR]

I can only speak for our Union, but our dues are 2 hrs. pay per month plus per capita tax to the International of about $5.50.  Cheap price to me but I've not been out on the road.

[RAD-GHOST]

The Concept of Organizing, may not be that far from Reality.

Some still cringe at the attempt of the 90's and don't want to venture back into the same scenerio.  During that attempt, the organizers didn't view the full scope of the business and the people involved.  Lots of Techs, Lots of Avaliable Assignments, Lots of Companies and a Transient Work Force.  Within a week after the strike start date, most of the Techs I knew who walked, were employed with another company, at another site.  The official organizers had no concept of a work force that could simply pick up the phone and obtain a job, then travel 3000 miles for an assignment the following day!  I believe, not verified, the organizers assumed the people they represented, would stay in place and support the negotiations.  Economical Preservation is a major driving force for anyone!  Another stumbling block of the times, not available in todays market, was the utilities ability to stand through long outage periods with little financial impact.  In todays world, an hour equates to about $20,000.00, thats a number with a bite to it!

Also in the 90's, the scope of the attempt was Nation Wide!  Today's agenda only needs be site specific and a hand full of Techs.  Todays outages staff with an average of 50 to 60 Contract Techs.  Twenty percent have a big say in their future, especially with a timely delivery of terms.  I know, as some of you read this, the concept of the blackball list is rolling in your head.  Has it existed, YES!  Does it exist today, YES!  Will it exist in the future, YES!  Make no mistake, one companies Blackball list, is another companies assets!  No company can afford a blackball list, or should I say Probation list, to long in length!  I don't think many techs overlooked the past seasons employment postings, of the secondary companies.  The companies that have little focus on the Commercial Health Physics Industry, yet they posted for positions.  Maybe they felt like it was time to venture into the commercial industry, or maybe the utilities decided it was time to preserve the existance of competition!  Who Knows?

Unionize and teach the Bastards a lesson!  WRONG!  Many have the concept that a union is a venue to teach the employer a lesson, it's not!  Bringing problems to the table and negotiating solutions is the real agenda, what's fair and what's not!  Companies want to know the problems of the employees and address them in part, if not 100%.  No company wants to be in a position of pissing off half their staff and watching the cars leaving site for the last time!  Everybody knows the current agenda with the utilities, lighter and tighter staffing, with a stop watch schedule!  No matter what anybody believes, when the breaker opens, the money clock is ticking!  Nobody wants to be off the clock, not the Utility, VP, Department Manager, or the Contract Companies!

Everybody wants a Guaranteed agenda, while expecting a better future!  Nobody is knocking on my door offering increased wages and benefits!  I have to go out and solicite the benefits and wages I will work for!  I guess that makes me a true traveler, since compensation out weights loyalty!  Of course loyalty is directly proportional to compansation!  The HP technician industry is somehwat unique when it comes to offers, solid numbers with no negotiation at all!  No guarantees for anything!  In fact, your not even 100% sure if you have a job until show up day and then your not even sure for how long!  Sitting and waiting may not be in the best interst for anybody in the profession.  Time will tell!

Now I'll roll into my Professional Theory!  Are Health Physics Technicians Professionals?  Do you consider yourself professional?  Do your peers consider you a professional?  Do the companies press the Professional speech on you, at the start of the outage?  If you answered yes to any of the questions, why don't the contract companies consider the profession, Professional?  Check it out, contact a company and tell them your looking for a Rad Engineer position, they will send you to the Professional Division!  I've always found it strange that only a handfull of site postions, have to meet routine testing and qualification standards, yet some are not considered Professionals!  I'm kind of a dinosaur, but I always figured, the more you test my credential and the more I prove myself, the more professional I am!  Another aspect of the Professional agenda is the site reception.  Here's an old Physics concept, every action has an opposit and equal reaction!  Treating Techs like second class citizens, can only lead to one resolve!  This whole concept make you wonder, who's selling you and as what?

Have a Great Day, RG

[justme]

Diablo wages are about $30/hr, 99/day diem.  Plus overtime after 10 hours each day (not after 40 hours) plus double time on overtime days.   Yes you do pay union dues about $60 a month, but it is worth it to make over 3 grand a week during an outage.

[UncaBuffalo]

Diablo wages are about $30/hr, 99/day diem.  Plus overtime after 10 hours each day (not after 40 hours) plus double time on overtime days.   Yes you do pay union dues about $60 a month, but it is worth it to make over 3 grand a week during an outage.

You forgot to mention "drive in/drive out" pay and meals!   WOO-HOO!  Chaa-Ching!    

[RAD-GHOST]

U.B.

Imagine that, a customer that actually realizes, your bills and expenses don't stop while your traveling. 

This may be a little off topic, but as I read it, Diablo pays about $30.00 and hour, $99 a day PD, Travel expenses and Wages on travel day, OT on a daily bases  and double time!  I'll bet they have a real problem finding people!   

Thanks for the Info, RG

[raymcginnis]

I know someone who is working at Hanford, getting something like $50.00 an hour and $120.00 a day per diem (low cost area), on a long term job.  There is more out there than most of us see.  You just have to explore, but you must be qualified!!!  Search, search, search my dear friends!

[UncaBuffalo]

This may be a little off topic, but as I read it, Diablo pays about $30.00 and hour, $99 a day PD, Travel expenses and Wages on travel day, OT on a daily bases  and double time!  I'll bet they have a real problem finding people!   

Actually, it's NOT the travel days you get paid wages on..."drive in/drive out" pay means you get paid for your driving time from home on your overtime days, so can end up being between an hour and two hours of EXTRA overtime on those days.