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Offline EugenioGarnica

Dear fellows,

I am working in a startup where we are trying to build a system to detect ionizing radiation and show it through augmented reality. Basically, you would be able to SEE radiation  [nuke] (in a similar way that a thermal camera shows heat).

We think that this system may very be useful for HP people working in NPPs (and indirectly to all NPP workers).

I will be very grateful if anyone could provide me his feedback or his opinion about any of the following questions:
·Does it sound good? 
·It may be really useful?
·It may improve the systems actually used, so dose and contaminations may be reduced?
·It may make life of HP workers easy? Safer? More comfortable?
·It may improve quality of operational dosimetry surveys?
·There will be NPPs managers willing to acquire a system like that?

Please feel free to contact me (egarnica@sadako.es) for any further issue that goes beyond this forum.

Many thanks in advance for your help!!!  :)

Offline Laundry Man

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #1 on: Nov 30, 2012, 08:34 »
Have you researched the Gamma Camera.  Been around for a while.
LM

Offline EugenioGarnica

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #2 on: Nov 30, 2012, 09:00 »
Dear Laundry Man,

Many thanks for your suggestion. I suppose you refer to the Toshiba Gamma Camera that is currently used in Fukushima (as far as I know it's still an "experimental" device not currently commercially available).


http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/toshibas_portable_gamma_camera_detects_radiation_hotspots.php

We assume the gamma camera is being quite useful in a post-emergency situation as Fukushima, but we think it's perhaps too expensive for being used outside this kind of cases.
The question we are having is:
a simpler (and cheaper) device... shall be useful in operation and refueling of NPPs?


Please, don't doubt to contact me for any question you consider of interest.

Many thanks another time!

Eugenio Garnica


Offline RTRT

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #3 on: Nov 30, 2012, 10:14 »
Gamma cameras have been around for 10-15 years.

Offline EugenioGarnica

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #4 on: Nov 30, 2012, 11:13 »
Dear RTRT,

I apologize, but all my experience with ionizing radiation (except the old days in university!) has been in Nuclear Power Plants, so I am not quite familiar with all devices used in other areas. I think that gamma cameras are quite used in clinical applications and I suppose they provide some kind of image. But... do you know if they have been used (besides the Fukushima case) in the nuclear power industry (operation and/or decommissioning)?
If not... why do you think is it?

Many thanks for your help! :)

Offline RTRT

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #5 on: Dec 01, 2012, 08:00 »
We rented one aprox 10 or so years ago at STP to evaluate several areas( tilt pit, under vessel, etc.). It showed some interesting things, but was pricey to rent back then.

Offline Rennhack

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #6 on: Dec 01, 2012, 10:20 »
If not... why do you think is it?

Cost.

Offline EugenioGarnica

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #7 on: Dec 01, 2012, 11:24 »
RTRT, Rennhack, Many thanks for all your interesting information. I didn't have any idea that this kind of cameras had been used in the way you say!  :o

So... may I suppose that if we can build our system at a lower cost, it should be interesting for NPPs??

Could you give me an estimation (roughly, of course!) of cost that may be considered reasonably for renting or buying???

Many thanks!!

Eugenio Garnica

Offline GLW

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #8 on: Dec 01, 2012, 11:35 »
RTRT, Rennhack, Many thanks for all your interesting information. I didn't have any idea that this kind of cameras had been used in the way you say!  :o

So... may I suppose that if we can build our system at a lower cost, it should be interesting for NPPs??

Could you give me an estimation (roughly, of course!) of cost that may be considered reasonably for renting or buying???

Many thanks!!

Eugenio Garnica

As to purchase,...

As portable, capable, and rugged as this for a similar price,...

http://www.qsl.net/k/k0ff//MatPic/Gamma%20Spec/MCA/SAIC%20Products%20GR-135%20Plus%20Identifier%20Radioactive%20Isotope%20Identification%20Device%20%28RIID%29%20Overview.htm

As to rental, you'll have to amortize that for yourself,....

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Offline EugenioGarnica

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #9 on: Dec 01, 2012, 11:54 »
Dear GLW,

We are designing our device to show radiation in augmented reality... but no with capability for getting the spectrum (it will show you the level of activity you have in objects/surfaces, but no the energy of the radiation emitted). Basically it will have not identifier functions. Of course, we want it to be, at least at the final stage of development, portable and rugged.

I have in mind about 9.000 U$ for the basic SAIC device you are talking about... Shall I understand that 9.000 U$ is a price you consider (of course, more or less!) that NPPs shall be willing to pay for our system of "seeing" the radiation, but with no identifier function?

Please, feel free to comment any item you consider interesting. For us, every feedback from users/experts that we get is very useful!!!!

Thanks!!

Offline Rennhack

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #10 on: Dec 01, 2012, 01:22 »
$9,000.00 USD for something that does not quantify radiation would not be purchased by most US nuclear power plants.  They typically want devices that quantify radiation.

Without the ability to quantify, at $9k price point, they might by one for the geek factor.  At $450 they might buy thousands of them to give to the workers to heighten awareness of their surroundings.  Depending on how rugged and easy to use they are.  It would have to be 'fisher price' easy (a child's toy).  It should have nothing more than an on/off switch to sell thousands.  With each button or setting you add, you lose potential users.

« Last Edit: Dec 01, 2012, 05:57 by Rennhack »

Offline EugenioGarnica

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #11 on: Dec 01, 2012, 01:51 »
Dear Rennhack,

When you say "quantify" radiation, what do you exactly mean?
a) provide the spectrum of radiation (e.g. to know if radiation comes from Cs-137 or Co-60)
b) provide the level of activity (e.g. Bq/cm2) or eq. dose to the worker (rem/h)

(I apologize if some of my questions may seem silly, I want to be sure I understand correctly!)

Thanks for your advice of relation (Number of buttons /potential users). We will keep in mind!

Many thanks for your help!  :)


Offline Rennhack

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #12 on: Dec 01, 2012, 05:58 »
Dear Rennhack,

When you say "quantify" radiation, what do you exactly mean?
a) provide the spectrum of radiation (e.g. to know if radiation comes from Cs-137 or Co-60)
b) provide the level of activity (e.g. Bq/cm2) or eq. dose to the worker (rem/h)
(I apologize if some of my questions may seem silly, I want to be sure I understand correctly!)
Thanks for your advice of relation (Number of buttons /potential users). We will keep in mind!

b) provide the level of activity (e.g. Bq/cm2) or eq. dose to the worker (rem/h)

To sell MANY devices, you have to keep it simple.  Power plant sources of radiation are few (Cs-137 or Co-60) the radionuclides present are typically know.  They already have devices to figure out what radionuclides are present.  Adding WHAT radionuclides are present MAY make it useful to DHS (Department of Homeland Security), and other emergency response folks. That would increas the cost per unit, so perhaps have 2 models, one less expensive that keeps it simple.  One more expensive that give as much data as you can.  The fancy model should data log GPS coordinates with the radiation data to generate a 3d or 4d map.

The less it costs, the more 'common' they will be.  Average people will buy them for home use if you keep it simple (on/off).  Scientists will use it if you make it complex, you can charge a premium for the complex version, but will sell less.  I see a market for both.

The complex device could be used for doing outside surveys of large land areas.

Just a few thoughts.
« Last Edit: Dec 01, 2012, 06:07 by Rennhack »

Offline GLW

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #13 on: Dec 01, 2012, 08:35 »

The complex device could be used for doing outside surveys of large land areas.


Those (complex devices) already exist and they do one better than a real time extrapolated image, they print a real time survey, with colors, GPs coords, the whole shebang, plus they perform data upload to remote servers, which are downloadable and can be archived by colleagues a continent away, etc, etc.,...

They cost a lot,...

They do not sell a lot of units,...

Not enough consistent demand,...

Plus the DQO/DQA is intense, which also drives up cost,...

In my estimation, gamma cameras are novelties,...

They're kinda cool, nifty, wowee devices, but, do not earn their keep beyond the cool factor,...

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Offline HydroDave63

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #14 on: Dec 01, 2012, 09:30 »
They're kinda cool, nifty, wowee devices, but, do not earn their keep beyond the cool factor,...

I concur...either they will be precise, expensive and in the same class as the Toshiba unit cited earlier, or more likely an expensive analog unit as PPE , similar to Geordi LaForge's air-filter glasses on ST:TNG.

Offline EugenioGarnica

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #15 on: Dec 02, 2012, 02:00 »
Dear HydroDave63, GLW, Rennhack,

Many thanks for your posts. They provide us very useful information for us in order to focus all our development. We love the technological development we are performing... but we are quite afraid of building something with no later users in the real world or too nice and expensive so no one will buy it!

Let me show you the picture we use in our organization to categorize the different uses of ionizing radiation detectors:



From the comments you made, I understand that it is useful to distinguish between the following kinds of detectors:

TYPE 1: Detectors that may be used in NPPs by Rad protection people during surveys inside controlled area (what we call A-3 in our picture) or to check contamination for entry/exit of equipment to controlled area (what we call A-4 in our picture). In this case, we assume a quantification of activity or dose (Bq/cm2 or rem/h) is needed, but that the identification of radionuclide is NOT needed. We think this is currently done using devices similar to the ones below (ranging 2.000 - 4.000 U$)
 
Do you think in this case showing (and quantifying) contamination/doses through augmented reality in 3D maps will be interesting? (that way you will not only have one or some punctual measurements, but a map with a 3D representation of the cubicle or the equipment of interest)
Do you think in this case this functionality will be worth the 9.000 U$?
How many of this detector you think could be purchased by one NPP?

TYPE 2: Detectors that may be used for contamination or dose surveys outdoors, typically in emergencies or after accidents (what we call in our picture B-4). We assume that a quantification is needed (Bq/cm2 or rem/h), but also that identification of radionuclide is not needed. Although detectors from the last type (Type 1) can be used, more sophisticated ones may include gps + mapping capabilities, as is the case of the Canberra Calibri (see below).

We think these sophisticated detectors are nice... but relatively expensive (8.000 U$?) for normal operation of NPPs. Do you agree?
We also think they provide a GPS mapping based on typical precision (within 1-2 meters), so no "hot spots" may be located, just average conditions. Do you think that a system with better precision (around 10 cm) will be worth the 8.000 U$ and be useful in NPPs?

TYPE 3: Detector that may be used to look for illicit trafficking of radioactive or special nuclear material (what we call C-2 in our picture). In this case, we assume the capability of detecting the radionuclide is basic to avoid confusing radioactive K from a banana container to a intent of smuggling of Pu or HEU. The devices used in this case are the identifinders, as the NaI-technology based SAIC GR-135 (or Flir Identifinder) or the HpGE-technology based as the ORTEC detective (range 9.000 U$ - 120.000 U$ in the detective!)

We assume this devices are not used in NPPs, basically due to the fact (as Rennhack pointed) that in NPPs the types of radionuclided are normally known so they are not worth their cost for this application. Do you agree?

TYPE 4: Detectors that may be used for the general public. We think there has been a little boom of this types of devices after Fukushima events. They, in principle are not in our scope (we are focused on providing tools for the industry), although... someones are very creative (and allow also the gps mapping function)!



What do you think of all this? Do you agree? Do you disagree or have other feelings?

We follow asking you to comment any item or provide any other related information you think may be interesting... It will be very useful for us!! :) :)
 
Many thanks another time!

Eugenio Garnica


 

Offline EugenioGarnica

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #16 on: Dec 04, 2012, 06:16 »
Dear all,

Any feedback, please???????

Many thanks!!!   :)

Offline SloGlo

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Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #17 on: Dec 04, 2012, 01:59 »
are you building this as an app for smartphones?  if so, the shielding present in most area where serious levels of radiation are present may preclude a phone from linking to the provider's towers and cloud based technology.  however, that may be a marketable venue for lower radiation levels.
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

Offline EugenioGarnica

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #18 on: Dec 11, 2012, 10:16 »
Dear SloGlo,

We are not thinking in building our device with an smartphone due to (among others) the reasons you mention. Also, smartphones have (and you pay for) a lot of functionalities very interesting for leisure time that will not be adequate working in a NPP; on the other hand some must-have we think our device needs (simplicity, being rugged, etc.) are not present in most smartphones.

We have seen many interesting products with smartphones as the iRad (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD_y-IW_byc ) or even using the typical integrated visual camera to detect ionizing radiation (see below and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJcOq5sLxPo). We think, however, that this quite nice products may be useful for some segments of people but do not cover the needs we want to serve (industrial or emergency applications).



Please, feel free to provide additional feedback!

Many thanks!

Offline GLW

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #19 on: Dec 11, 2012, 10:24 »
Dear SloGlo,

We are not thinking in building our device with an smartphone due to (among others) the reasons you mention. Also, smartphones have (and you pay for) a lot of functionalities very interesting for leisure time that will not be adequate working in a NPP; on the other hand some must-have we think our device needs (simplicity, being rugged, etc.) are not present in most smartphones......

Not to mention smartphones in any guise are not the darlings of security,...

So, they (smartphones) add another hurdle, not insurmountable, but still there,... 8)

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Offline EugenioGarnica

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #20 on: Dec 13, 2012, 05:20 »
Dear GLW,

I guess the "love relationship" between security people and smartphones is quite the same all around the world... and I don't really understand it, as smartphones and tablets have been widely used in the industry with very good results (see picture below)

 ;)


Offline EugenioGarnica

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #21 on: Dec 13, 2012, 06:11 »
Dear all,

Let me post a new more concrete question. We are discussing some different technical alternatives for our system, and we wonder which may be more interesting...

a) A handheld system, basically similar to the detectors used today in most plants, where the HP operator shall perform a manual mapping of the surface of interest. The system will be used, so, more or less similarly to what today is done at NPPs, but will add the representation of the dose levels recorded in a 3D map with color codes after the "manual mapping" has been performed. The cost of the equipment may oscillate in 7.000-12.000 U$ (we show a photo of a typical detector used today)



b) A more sophisticated system, more or less similar to the gamma cameras, where the device is held static some time and develops a "3D photo" with levels of radiation represented in color codes. In this case, cost of equipment will increase to 20.000-50.000 U$ (we show below a photo of the gamma scan being developed by Toshiba in Japan as a idea of "concept")


Do you think any of the alternatives may be useful and really cost-interesting in normal operation of NPPs?

Many thanks for your feedback!!!

Eugenio Garnica

(as always, please feel free to send me a direct message through nukeworker.org or to my email: egarnica@sadako.es should you wish to contact me for any specific issue you consider interesting)

 

Offline Rennhack

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #22 on: Dec 13, 2012, 09:15 »


Thanks for the link, I found that video very interesting.


Offline EugenioGarnica

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #23 on: Dec 17, 2012, 10:30 »
Dear all,

Many thanks for all your comments!

I will appreciate any further feedback, specially related to the alternatives (A and B) shown below.

Any case, I am opening a new topic just to ask about drone use in NPP. Please, if interested... post us a feedback there.

 :)

Thanks!

Eugenio

Offline EugenioGarnica

Re: A system to SEE ionizing radiation... interesting?
« Reply #24 on: Jan 07, 2013, 09:55 »
Dear all, just in case it seems interesting, I have found a quite curious device by the NNL in the UK (the radBall)




Although I am not sure of the present commercial sense of a device like this in operating NPPs... it's quite awesome!

 


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