Current state of commercial nuclear power

[Tyson812]

    First of all, please don't use this topic to pad your post count by telling me to search. I have searched extensively and I mostly find myself scrolling through pages of people telling other people to use the search function. I'm hoping to actually have an intelligent open forum discussion on this topic and if you can't contribute, please don't.

  Back on topic, I am approaching my eaos in navy and up until this point I have been dead set on the challenge of getting hired on at a utility and completing Sro qualifications. My question is, from an insider perspective, taking all current events into consideration is it even worth getting into nuclear power? Is employment in such a specialized field really sustainable with all recent plant shutdowns and natural gas prices as low as they are. I have 3 little girls and the idea of moving them, busting my butt to qualify, and then starting over again in a couple years isn't all that appealing to me, hence getting out of navy. I'm really looking for long term stability. I do understand that if you were going to get in, now is the time as competition is only going to get worse, assuming your plant doesn't shutdown. If the long term outlook is a positive one, is there certain geographical locations, companies, or specific plants that I should be looking into given my goals. I also noticed a lot of senior industry guys jumping ship, and that's very hard to write off as coincidence. Very curios to hear any insider opinions on this. Thanks

[Content1]

The state of the industry? We might compare it to the state of dinosaurs 64 million years ago. Things were rough but they were surviving until that meteor hit wiping out most life on earth. They never recovered and mammals now rule. If you could call 3 mile Island the "meteor" and the availability of cheap natural gas, the industry is slowly dying. This would not be a growing industry to be getting into. Becoming a natural gas plant operator (like the mammals) probably has a better future.

[Fermi2]

    First of all, please don't use this topic to pad your post count by telling me to search. I have searched extensively and I mostly find myself scrolling through pages of people telling other people to use the search function. I'm hoping to actually have an intelligent open forum discussion on this topic and if you can't contribute, please don't.

  Back on topic, I am approaching my eaos in navy and up until this point I have been dead set on the challenge of getting hired on at a utility and completing Sro qualifications. My question is, from an insider perspective, taking all current events into consideration is it even worth getting into nuclear power? Is employment in such a specialized field really sustainable with all recent plant shutdowns and natural gas prices as low as they are. I have 3 little girls and the idea of moving them, busting my butt to qualify, and then starting over again in a couple years isn't all that appealing to me, hence getting out of navy. I'm really looking for long term stability. I do understand that if you were going to get in, now is the time as competition is only going to get worse, assuming your plant doesn't shutdown. If the long term outlook is a positive one, is there certain geographical locations, companies, or specific plants that I should be looking into given my goals. I also noticed a lot of senior industry guys jumping ship, and that's very hard to write off as coincidence. Very curios to hear any insider opinions on this. Thanks

Translated: I'm getting out but too lazy to do my own research so I'll pose this as a state of the industry question...

[Tyson812]

Nice bridezilla 3143

[hamsamich]

I would shoot for down south, nuclear power seems to be in a more friendly environment.  But as far as long term stability goes, nuclear power compared to other industries is probably still pretty good.  Stay away from low megawatt/old plants/granola areas.  Or plants with newly installed defective S/Gs.  Not a growing industry for sure, but nuclear power as a "cleaner" way to get power than fossil can't be ignored forever in my opinion.  It is the only other way to get power on a real scale.

When you go for your first interview make sure you tell the interviewers not to ask you any tough questions, because you have already done your research and you know what they were going to ask anyway and you've got it covered.

[RDTroja]

I'm not going to tell you to search but not because it is a bad thing or you said not to. I will tell you that the state of the industry is very shaky so I suggest you stay away from it. Particularly because you will fail miserably in it with that attitude.

Go find something else to do for a living. The rest of the industry will thank you for it.

[Tyson812]

I'm sorry did I say I knew all the answers? I thought I was asking a question and doing my research right now. Its kind of hard to research which plants will shutdown in next 10 years as it's poor business strategy to announce or even hint at it. You would think you older more experienced guys would enjoy sharing your knowledge and life experiences as I'm sure was done for you. Instead just like every other nuke you feel obligated to let everyone else around you know just how much better your are than them. I would hope that your smarter, more experienced and more qualified than me you are a lot farther along in life than I am. Hence, the reason I sought your advice!

[Nukette]

Not a growing industry for sure, but nuclear power as a "cleaner" way to get power than fossil can't be ignored forever in my opinion.  It is the only other way to get power on a real scale.

Absolutely agree and I cannot wait for the day when the nation realizes that.

When you go for your first interview make sure you tell the interviewers not to ask you any tough questions, because you have already done your research and you know what they were going to ask anyway and you've got it covered.

Nicely put

[RDTroja]

I'm sorry did I say I knew all the answers? I thought I was asking a question and doing my research right now. Its kind of hard to research which plants will shutdown in next 10 years as it's poor business strategy to announce or even hint at it. You would think you older more experienced guys would enjoy sharing your knowledge and life experiences as I'm sure was done for you. Instead just like every other nuke you feel obligated to let everyone else around you know just how much better your are than them. I would hope that your smarter, more experienced and more qualified than me you are a lot farther along in life than I am. Hence, the reason I sought your advice!

You would find (if you had left the attitude out of your original post) that the people on this site can be very helpful and very friendly. The 'older ones' have spent most of their careers helping others learn and giving guidance as required. It isn't a lack of wanting to help nor a lack of experience in doing so. You have just failed to inspire anything but contempt with your snotty attitude, so you will get nothing from those that could help the most.

Try to recognize that the problem is on your end of the conversation and you may get something out of it. Or not. It is your choice but you apparently already made that choice before your first post.

[hamsamich]

812, Re-read the first part of your first post and put yourself in the shoes of your expected listener.  See how much you feel like helping then.  I understand your sentiment, but the way to go about it is: tell us what you have learned from your "exhaustive" research and ask us to fill in other blanks you have.   Don't act like the king in bugs bunny yelling for hasenpfeffer.  Cook, cook!

[HydroDave63]

    First of all, please don't use this topic to pad your post count by telling me to search. I have searched extensively and I mostly find myself scrolling through pages of people telling other people to use the search function. I'm hoping to actually have an intelligent open forum discussion on this topic and if you can't contribute, please don't.

First of all, it looks whiny to tell others how to post, and since these topics have been discussed previously, it becomes tiring. One thing you can do to gain the upper hand in a forum, is do a search, link the result, and ask clarifying questions based directly from the result.

  Back on topic, I am approaching my eaos in navy and up until this point I have been dead set on the challenge of getting hired on at a utility and completing Sro qualifications.

Do you realize that if you don't pass the Instant SRO program at most sites, you aren't qualified to any other job tasks and can be let go? Hiring on as an Aux Operator first at least gives you something to fall back upon in event of not qualifying SRO.


My question is, from an insider perspective, taking all current events into consideration is it even worth getting into nuclear power?


Depends. Will your command let you reenlist? What other comparable jobs could you land post-EAOS that are not nuclear power related?


Is employment in such a specialized field really sustainable with all recent plant shutdowns and natural gas prices as low as they are.

Nat gas prices are volatile. There are nat gas plants that may be decommissioned in bankruptcy if gas prices go significantly higher, but that won't help resuscitate the several nuclear plants that announced early closures.


I have 3 little girls and the idea of moving them, busting my butt to qualify, and then starting over again in a couple years isn't all that appealing to me, hence getting out of navy.

You referred to being "dead set on the challenge of getting hired on at a utility and completing Sro qualifications". SRO qualifications are stressful and take enormous effort. If you were at sea getting SIR qual'd on your new ship/sub, after a bad day you can crawl in your rack for a while and be alone with your thoughts. Imagine if you are doing poorly in SRO quals, you give off the tension vibe at home, can't sleep well, kids annoy ya, domestic non-bliss....the stress can compound.

I'm really looking for long term stability.

We all did, from the first time we heard of "nuclear" and fell in love with the thermal neutron. Or our first Rad smearable, whichever floats your boat. But nuclear is only stable if the economy of the utility and nation are stable with a predictable regulatory environment.  We do have threads that discuss these topics.

I do understand that if you were going to get in, now is the time as competition is only going to get worse, assuming your plant doesn't shutdown.

Or, conversely, now could be the time to do something non-nuclear. Why? If you hire into 'Last Legs Nuclear Generating Station' as the FNG, you have no seniority. They announce a reduction in force in 2017 due to 2,500 megawatts of newly installed wind driving wholesale prices down 3 months of the year, and you are in the first wave RIF'd. The plant doesn't have to shutdown for that to happen.


If the long term outlook is a positive one, is there certain geographical locations, companies, or specific plants that I should be looking into given my goals.

The dual unit site near Dallas if you can stand oppressive heat and delicious barbeque, or the neat-as-a-pin plant on the Pacific, as long as your growing family doesn't mind living in a $172000 20x80 mobile home 3/2 45 mins drive from work.


I also noticed a lot of senior industry guys jumping ship, and that's very hard to write off as coincidence. Very curios to hear any insider opinions on this. Thanks


Biannual dis-qual, training week in the stimulator, working 60 to get paid 40 (you do realize that at most utilities, SRO's are FLSA Exempt Management, right?), finding consulting gigs through their fellow Nukeworkers, etc. etc. Good deals often involve social networking, and that's what we do here, right ?  

[Tyson812]

All I have done is read and read everything on this forum. And I have questions but I don't ask because everyone who asks a question receives 20 useless responses about how they could never make it in nuclear power because they couldn't search for something they didn't even know the name of. So finally despite being apprehensive, I asked a question. It wasn't an attitude I just really didn't want to engage in this. I probably led off a little to abrasive and for that I apologize and take responsibility for. You see how you felt when you read my one post. That's how everyone else feels towards all you salty dogs on here after reading through pages of your rude and aggressive unprovoked comments.

[Tyson812]

812, Re-read the first part of your first post and put yourself in the shoes of your expected listener.  See how much you feel like helping then.  I understand your sentiment, but the way to go about it is: tell us what you have learned from your "exhaustive" research and ask us to fill in other blanks you have.   Don't act like the king in bugs bunny yelling for hasenpfeffer.  Cook, cook!

You're right I got defensive before I should have.

[SpaceJustice]

I'm sorry did I say I knew all the answers? I thought I was asking a question and doing my research right now. Its kind of hard to research which plants will shutdown in next 10 years as it's poor business strategy to announce or even hint at it.

Every plant I interviewed at had the term of its NRC license readily available.  Have you looked at any company websites?

[Tyson812]

Yes I am aware if I went direct Sro and fail I could be out a Job. I could re-enlist but don't want because of kids and direction navy is going. I am aware most sros are non-bargaining employees. I am at prototype working 60-70 hours a week on average, and I understand the stresses I have qualified everything at prototype, and while I'm sure it's no where near as hard as Sro, Eoow is the closest comparison than I can make. I fully understand, as much as one can from outside the cons of being an Sro. As I was reading a in depth report on multiple issues Byron was having with management the other day, it started to eerily remind me  of the navy and for the first time I questioned my goals and motive. Hence I'm going back and trying to evaluate all aspects of the job, not just if I think I can do it or not.

[Tyson812]

Every plant I interviewed at had the term of its NRC license readily available.  Have you looked at any company websites?

Absolutely, I have a spread sheet of the plants I would like geographically, and what type and when renewal expires, however some plants are shutting down before their licenses expire. So really all it tells me is the longest I could work there.

[GLW]

..... Is employment in such a specialized field really sustainable with all recent plant shutdowns and natural gas prices as low as they are. I have 3 little girls and the idea of moving them, busting my butt to qualify, and then starting over again in a couple years isn't all that appealing to me, hence getting out of navy. I'm really looking for long term stability.....

employment never was stable for many, very stable for some,...

many of the atoms for peace plants were pilots, yet, they built, loaded fuel, operated, shut down and then sent their staffs packing, not much stability there even when nuke power was the new jewel in the crown,...

here's a short breakdown for your "stability" aspirations,...

3 commercial nukes were licensed in the 1950's, 19 licensed in the 1960's, 59 licensed in the 1970's, 47 licensed in the 1980's, and 5 licensed in the 1990's, none since,...

none of the commercial nukes were shuttered in the 1950's, 7 were shuttered in the 1960's, 7 were shuttered in the 1970's, 6 were shuttered in the 1980's, 9 were shuttered in the 1990's, none were shuttered in the 2000's, 4 have been shuttered in the 2010's so far,...

of the 33 shuttered plants: seven were in California, two in Connecticut, one in Colorado, one in Florida, three in Illinois, one in Maine, one in Massachusetts, two in Michigan, one in Minnesota, one in Nebraska, two in New York, one in Ohio, one in Oregon, four in Pennsylvania, one in South Carolina, one in South Dakota, one in Washington and two in Wisconsin,...

so, essentially there have been 133 commercial reactors of which 75% are still on the grid,...      

the currently operating plants have an average age of 33 years and a median age of 35 years,...

the plants which have already been shuttered had an average age of 17 years and a median age of 16 years,...

and those 33 plants were scattered all over the fruited plain,..

it's not really the number of nukes operating or the vagaries of their business or competition models,...

it's really the unfortunate circumstance that they are not building new ones at a rate to keep up with the retirements and the current operating units are old, regardless of how well they have been managed to still be productive, these old units need to have qualified replacements coming on line to keep the nuke industry viable beyond their inevitable retirements,....

a little like the salty dogs which populate these forums,....

so if you're gonna play in this arena to make your living then salty old plants and salty old operators are going to be a part of your existence,...

as are the never ending supply of young ex-NNPP hopefuls plus whatever the tech schools and universities churn out,...

and the really hungry hopefuls from Burger King and McDonald's,...

you can try to get the youngest belle of the ball to be your dance partner but be mindful she's already used up 48% of her initial license life expectancy and has to get that coveted extension in fewer years than you need to retire out,...

that big move you desire to never have to make after you plant your CIVLANT homestead is no more attainable as that last statement I illustrated for you,...

and that's the best stability scenario you've got,...

and yet still in 2013 America, you're better off than a whole lot of your fellow citizens,...

so take that all in, balance out the calculus for you and yours and make the best choice you can, I sense you're looking for guarantees that do not exist now and quite frankly have never existed,...

Well, good luck and thank you for your service,....

[HeavyD]

The problem is, there are no guarantees in the industry except death and taxes.

There are a variety of factors that will play a part in the near and long term of our industry;
- current and future nat gas prices (which may jump substantially in the next 3-5 years due to the US becoming a net nat gas exporter)
- ability of the utilities to keep older plants operating effectively enough to be profitable
- a possible long term spent fuel repository, or lack thereof
- political pressure, exacerbated by ignorant citizens and special interest groups

And on and on and on.

If you want an opportunity for something that may be close to stable for the next 20 years, visit SCANA or Southern Nuclear's websites and look at the job openings posted there for their new nuclear projects.  At VC Summer, we are hiring operators (both licensed and non-licensed), maintenance and technical staff, as well as security over the next 18 months.  Also, keep in mind that there are 4 plants worth of people who are already in the industry that are joining the workforce.

Don't limit yourself to only nuclear power.  As a prior Navy nuke, with any kind of rudimentary leadership and/or planning skills, you can find opportunities in other fields.  If you are deadest on being in this industry, you need to be willing to move wherever the job pops up and understand that there is a real possibility, as with any other civilian job, that your job services may no longer be needed due to a variety of factors that are 100% out of your control.

Good luck and thank you for serving.

[Ksheed]

1. Is employment in such a specialized field really sustainable with all recent plant shutdowns and natural gas prices as low as they are.

2. I have 3 little girls and the idea of moving them, busting my butt to qualify, and then starting over again in a couple years isn't all that appealing to me, hence getting out of navy. I'm really looking for long term stability.

3. I also noticed a lot of senior industry guys jumping ship, and that's very hard to write off as coincidence. Very curios to hear any insider opinions on this.

1. A power plant is a power plant.

2. If spending more time with your kids is important, do not become an operator. If moving around is your concern, that is just as likely at any fossil plant. They all have life expectancies. Your best bet would be to attempt to hire on at a new build regardless of the fuel source. FYI, I have 3 girls and a boy. We have moved 4 times in the last 6 years. I had to promise them that this time was the last time. From here on out if Daddy has to go somewhere else he will travel and they stay put. No more changing schools and starting over.

3. People have "jumped ship" for years. The work from one to the other is very similar. I have know people that went from coal to nuke and vice versa. Some contractors or "roadies" do it constantly.

[GLW]

Or, learn how to live on small money and grab a job at WCS,...

That can alleviate all your concerns,...

And they are hiring,...

[Fermi2]

Nice bridezilla 3143

Your skin is too thin for the commercial industry.

[Tyson812]

A lot of interesting perspectives. Obviously the chance a plant will shutdown is always there and hopefully this shutdown scare will be like the 90's and not to many more will come from it. I am going to apply at a couple non-nuclear plants as well as a few other companies as well. Hopefully I can find a job with a reasonable compromise between pay and happiness. My skin is plenty thick enough to block all you negative little betas whether military or commercially generated. LoL small nuclear joke for you.

[GLW]

Your skin is too thin for the commercial industry.

I think there's a bit of trolling going on there, to wit:

.........That's how everyone else feels towards all you salty dogs on here after reading through pages of your rude and aggressive unprovoked comments.

That's not the comment from a novice user,....

The OP came here for a crutch or two, which is okay, but the OP also came loading the exact type of forum shot needed to illicit the predictable response from "all you salty dogs",...

References to "how everyone feels" and "reading through pages" implies the OP did a set up using previously gleaned insight, knowing he would get a response, and then could throw a few "wounded by the bad boys" self-righteous jabs back,...

That's just how I see it, after all, the OP is a Navy nuke, I doubt he's all that thin skinned, he's just looking for a fight and wants to be perceived as the aggrieved party defending himself while giving back as good as he gets,...

It's one of those passive-aggressive things,...

The OP is probably from Minnesota,...

heheheheheheh,....

almost forgot (sic),...4 beercourt

[Fermi2]

I never troll. I say what is on my mind and given every bit of that info is already here I saw what I saw, another lazy Navy nuke.

(Most likely from Ohio )0

[Tyson812]

No setups, no motives other than getting insider perspective. Most people are social and enjoy meeting new people and having discussions, even if they have had that discussion before. Couldn't begin to count conversations I've held with complete strangers about the weather and don't think I've ever asked anybody if they read the 10-day forecast from last weeks newspaper when asked my opinion. It's just down right rude. If you don't want to talk to people then don't, that simple.