how hot is clean?

[SloGlo]

i dont think you can sell your liability slo go.. out of sight dont really mean out of mind. 

so iffen the regulators buy off on the license 'n it is terminated, 'n i sell the property, i'm still liable?  i think i know what the donald would tell the engineers that negotiated with the regulators.... do yew?

[alphadude]

under nuke no you are not but a holding company is as well as the underwriter. for RCRA yep you are!

[SloGlo]

under nuke no you are not but a holding company is as well as the underwriter. for RCRA yep you are!

explain this, as you lost me.  when a license is terminated, and then the property is sold, then the criteria changes, who is liable?  the licensor?

[halflifer]

I'm not sure, but I think the 'cradle to grave' concept applies to nuclear material as well as all other contaminates (pollutants?)....you know the drill, once it's yours it's yours forever

[raymcginnis]

Right Halflifer, unless you are a government site and the contract gets sold to someone else.  Then the ball is in their court.  I know this from experience.  I am possibly in the middle of getting sold for the second time.

Who would have thunk that I would have lived this long, to see that happen, LOL?

[darkmatter]

Who would have thunk that I would have lived this long, to see that happen, LOL?

Owww.....I resemble that remark.

[halflifer]

wow!!! y'mean the government has one set of rules for themselves and another set for the rest of us? i find that sooooo hard to believe !!

[alphadude]

well nuke waste does have some release from liabilities, the sites collect a fund to handle the rad material in case of some leaking containments- take Barnwell for example they have a trench that has leaked but is being monitored.(one of the early trenches.) the sites do map where your waste goes. (wink, wink, nod, nod) However, if you have RCRA or related issues- its yours until your kids spend your last dime and you croak-then the kids get to deal with it. with rad the issues are corporate- with RCRA its personal.

oh, if you fail to disclose properly, all rules dont apply.

[MrHazmat]

Hey, I worked at Barnwell for over 16 years,
and I know where your waste is. 

[alphadude]

you are not the guy with the magic stick are ya?  he nailed us on a hic with some water and that stick... 

[MrHazmat]

No that was the DHEC rep, but I tell you that old country boy caught a bunch of people with that stick of his. You had to have an ear for it, and I NEVER saw him miss. He did not check every shipment, but when he did if he said water it was there.

[alphadude]

well maybe he was just following southern tradition  "poke it with a stick" 
when chem nuke was in power they spoke highly of his methods and his score.
have fun

[SloGlo]

I'm not sure, but I think the 'cradle to grave' concept applies to nuclear material as well as all other contaminates (pollutants?)....you know the drill, once it's yours it's yours forever

wail, hail!  iffen we're dealing with pollutants, then the brownfields that have been restored green and givn and/or sold to other parties which have installed playgrounds, parks, shopping malls, homes, industrial parks, 'n every other venue of contemporary society are in deep doo-doo!  'cause iffen the rules change, then the originators have gotta pony up, huh?  let me have your references on this, so's i kin git my lawsuits in order.

[alphadude]

confusion of issues slo go. brownfields are areas that are remediated and gone thru environmental restoration. we are talking about waste in the can here.

rule changes, if there is an identified hazard after the fact may be under consent orders, SWMUs, or special ruling. if the owner disclosed properly and the property changed hands legally, underwriters would be bear the burden of the liability- (banks, insurance, bonds etc.)

[SloGlo]

confusion of issues slo go. brownfields are areas that are remediated and gone thru environmental restoration. we are talking about waste in the can here.

rule changes, if there is an identified hazard after the fact may be under consent orders, SWMUs, or special ruling. if the owner disclosed properly and the property changed hands legally, underwriters would be bear the burden of the liability- (banks, insurance, bonds etc.)

yo, weight a minnit there, alphadude!  i ain't confusing anything that you haven't muddled up already.  you brought the pollution banner into this discussion.  i was talking about a finalized, remediated nuclear site, a yellow/majentafield.  i ain't talking bout no waste in no stinkin can!  i used a brownfield as an example that is similar in nature, although the contaminate is different.  p'rhaps yinz should go back 'n read my posts on 7/1/05 @ 14:24:18, 'n 7/1/05 @ 08:37:41. maybee it'll help ya.  in the meantime, ya got an answer, yet?  or ya just got more smoke to blow in front of yer mirrors?

[raymcginnis]

SloGlo,

I'm no lawyer, but I think you go a long way in relieving the burden of liability if you get a federally sponsored agency to do a confimatory survey and write a report agreeing with you findings.  We go further and have the State buy off on our releases also.  If your Federal Regulators buy off all confirmatory buy-offs and then publish the release in the Fedral Register, then I think your liability shrinks to almost nothing.  That is how we do it.

Under State law, we would still have to put a disclaimer that it was a former nuclear site on any real estate transaction.  That could limit your buyers and price, but once purchased, with the disclaimer, I don't think anyone would even get to court with a liability claim, unless they could prove that you and all of the government agencies intentionally lied about the release to falsely get it into the Federal Register.  That never happens, trust me.  It is like pulling teeth to get a facility officially released.  We have done it many times here though, over many years.  We are really close to finishing the whole site now.

Two of our other released sites are being sold to another company.  The ex-RA areas did not stop the sale.

We released both NRC and DOE regulated sites using this procedure, starting in the 1970's.

[RAD-GHOST]

What's good for today, isn't necessarily good for tomorrow!

Anybody remember the EPA rules of the 70's?  The ones that wipped out a ton of business owners and set the course of todays shell companies!  Of course it was legal to do business that way yesterday, but we changed our minds today!  Nobody can argue that the dumping practices of decades gone by, were completely out of control.  The prime factor was the responsibility assessed with what you dumped, or in our case what you leave behind!  Federal, State, or Local Agencies can give you a clean bill of health, but I don't believe a walk away will ever be guaranteed! 

I recall a remediation project, I worked outside of the nuclear field, metals contamination.  They also received a clean bill of health for the site.  The final release was granted in the late 70's.  Some Idiot, supported by the city officials, decided it would be a great location for a low cost housing project!  Everything was great, for years, until a number of individuals started to contract strange symptoms.  That action took place in the mid 90's and the company is still married to the site, at a huge annual cost!  Funny, all the official who supported the housing venture have long gone.  All the new officials are standing out front, pointing their fingers! 

The companies view, " You said it was fine yesterday"!  The Officials view point, " It ain't yesterday"!

In the D&D industry, everything seems to be maintaining itself under the rules of statistics.  I just hope someone has calculated the little Billy factor into the equation!  Once little Billy arrives at the house, with a chunk of DU, Strontium, or Cesium in his hand, all previous rules are VOID!

RG

[alphadude]

mixed terminology does muddy the water-brownfields are not a nuke related- cradle to grave concepts follow container waste methods- rad materials are listed as pollutants under EPA-hence the RQ list.

as i said and it seems to be confrimed by further verbage- disclosure-is the key, any future situation resulting from improper disclosure would bring the burden on the underwriters, and previous owner-no matter what. The reduction in risk as discussed does become a fact when we clean up to the 10-6 uci, ppm, ppb etc.  since the state or some agency says the area is at an acceptable risk level (notice I did not say clean) they also share the burden. if you sell and disclose properly-you are free!! unless the site becomes cercla in some future time. (PRP list) then you have to prove innocent.

No smoke nor mirrors, just 32 years of dealing with epa, AEC, NRC, state and federal agencies and teaching environmental law for a few years.   


no where does anything say you are suit free... but thats another issue.

All this is being tested at Rocky Flats-

[SloGlo]

mixed terminology does muddy the water-brownfields are not a nuke related-

 if you sell and disclose properly-you are free!!

No smoke nor mirrors, just 32 years of dealing with epa, AEC, NRC, state and federal agencies and teaching environmental law for a few years.   

part one... sew sorry yinz don't understand allegorical speech.

part two... thanks for finally answering the question.

part three... eye knew there was sum lawyering in yer bkg watt with the way ya dance around every question 'n insist ya answered it.

[raymcginnis]

Holy cow, this topic is still going.  I am not surprised.  I hoped that my "Radiation Risk" topic would have diverted this topic to the new topic.   OK, everyone is still posting about "How Hot Is Clean?"  I will jump in again.

"How Hot is Clean" depends on the citizens of your State, in the USA, if you read your State's constitution and laws (as well as USA laws. especially DOT laws).

That is the one thing that is left up to you, in your local area.  Whatever radiation that you have is in control by you (and your local laws)!  You can bury, but FedEx shipping has to be done under the new International rules for sure!

There is no way of getting around that.  We trudge though these rules every day.  Anyone interested in my story on this, contact me at: calculator@nukeworker.com

Gosh!  I just told my favorite environmentalist joke to a company person who had way more power than me.

I told him that I heard about the environmentalist that died in his hometown of Seattle.  "He had a heart attach when he saw a Spotted Owl eating a Pacific Salmon."  Now come on, that is funny!

[SloGlo]

I told him that I heard about the environmentalist that died in his hometown of Seattle.  "He had a heart attach when he saw a Spotted Owl eating a Pacific Salmon."  Now come on, that is funny!

but da coroner ruled he had an excessive uptake of iodine, ruling that it must have been the releases from the nuke subs ina harbor, ignoring alla salt on da environmentalist's dining table. karma to ya ray.

[raymcginnis]

but da coroner ruled he had an excessive uptake of iodine, ruling that it must have been the releases from the nuke subs ina harbor, ignoring alla salt on da environmentalist's dining table.  karma to ya ray.

Yeah, funny also SloGlo!  You make me laugh about serious subjects sometimes.  This is a thing that many people deal with day to day.  It does deserve serious discussion.  I try to be serious most of the time, but sometimes I throw my hands up and make a joke about it.  It just seems funny to me from time to time, so I become the jokester.  This is what all experienced NukeWorkers deal with every day, as well as the rest of society.  Everyone wants to know not "How Hot Is Clean," but am I safe? 

I have done this nuclear thing for many years and I still feel safe.

Anyone out there feel unsafe?  If so, why?

[raymcginnis]

only when I'm within 100 miles of sloglo,....heheheheheheh,.....

OK, nice  joking around.  We are all friends.  To continue your joke, how many miles away would you be willing to be from me?

People only feel safe when they feel safe.  I protect Humans every day.  Do you do the same, MARSSIM?  I suspect that you do, but in a different way than I do.  There is nothing wrong with you and I being on different paths.

Dave Mason, the excellent poet said it best: "There ain't no good guy. there ain't no bad guy.  There's only you and me and we just disagee." 

I do like you ideas, however, and I learn from them.  Keep posting!

[alphadude]

you know spotted owl taste just like bald eagle.. kinda stringy

[raymcginnis]

Funny you should ask, here's my answer:

Good answer!  Peace back to you.  It turns out that we do agree.  You said it great this time.  It is hard to communicate through bulletin boards.  I split the topic off into risk versus background.  I know your question.  I think that they are two closely related, separate issues.  Maybe that is where I thought that we disagreed, but it turns out that we do agree.

Double peace back to you, MARSSIM and good luck at work!  Keep us all posted of your new work.  It will benefit us all.  That is the cool thing about NukeWorker.  Sharing of info is everything, in the digital age!

Your knowledge is some of the best!  Keep it coming!