Rock the Boat

[E-Z_MONEY]

Hey Everybody,
I know that the "strike" back in the early 90's kinda backfired, but times have changed.  There are A LOT less techs in the business, and the pay for us sucks.  Outages are getting to be half as long with only half the techs they used to bring in, However our pay is still about the same.  Yeah, it's gone up a few bucks, but not near where it should be.  I'm not saying to "STRIKE" However I am saying if we all hold out this spring, the $$$ WILL go up.  I know not everyone is gonna, but if enough of us do, then Good ol' Bruce will have to cough up some coin.  I would rather miss an outage or two and have the $$ go up so in the long run we will all make more money.  The spring is full of outages, and we can all make better money if we stick together.

[Rennhack]

Hey Everybody,
I know that the "strike" back in the early 90's kinda backfired, but times have changed.  There are A LOT less techs in the business, and the pay for us sucks.  Outages are getting to be half as long with only half the techs they used to bring in, However our pay is still about the same.  Yeah, it's gone up a few bucks, but not near where it should be.  I'm not saying to "STRIKE" However I am saying if we all hold out this spring, the $$$ WILL go up.  I know not everyone is gonna, but if enough of us do, then Good ol' Bruce will have to cough up some coin.  I would rather miss an outage or two and have the $$ go up so in the long run we will all make more money.  The spring is full of outages, and we can all make better money if we stick together.

A ten year Senior HPT should be making $25/hr, so we are only a few dollars away from where we should be, to be in line with the rest of the job market.  More Seniors are removed from the "pool" every year, at an estimated rate of 10%.  This has caused the avarage pay for a senior go from $14/50 in 1998 to $20/80 in 2002.  Not a bad jump in four years. (That was the same time frame that NukeWorker has been online...)

You will NEVER get people to hold out, but if you could... I'm all for it.  Staffing is already tight, (For example, Bruce has over 70% ofthe contracts, and as a result he has no competition to 'borrow' techs from.)

I've always subscribed to the "follow the money" concept.  Set a dollar amout that you are willing to work for, and do not accept less than that.  Tell the recruiters up front, I need "$xx.00/hr and per diem" to leave the house.  What do you have in that range.  Some times thay have nothing, and you get to stay home and paint the house.  Some times you get some really great jobs.  -- Of course, what works for me may not work for you, but it should as long as you set your sights reasonable.  Rocky Flats pays a lot of money, and it is year round.  The same goes for Hanford, Nevada Test site, and INEEL.  Those sites pay near the $25/hr mark plus per diem.  There is little overtime, but you get a check 52 weeks a year.  You could bounce around from one to another if you like.

As techs leave the short outages behind, and opt for stable, long term DOE work... the wages will go up.  As far as sticking to the power plants... only go to the site paying the most money....follow the money.

So, go ahead, and "hold out" from the outages, but still make some money at a DOE site.  You are still sending the same message... but you are getting paid, and not pissing off the Tech Companies.

[Jr8black3]

Amen Mike, you hit the nail right on the head!!!

[E-Z_MONEY]

I'll agree with what you said, however $16/hr and 80/day for a 3.1 sr. doesn't cut it, and that's what the wages at more than 1 outage are right now.

[Chimera]

When I started in this road-tech business, we were paid a whopping $5/hr and $30/day.  Back then, those were bigger paychecks than most of us had ever seen.  The improvements in wages (and benefits) have been slow in coming over the years.  If you are still accepting $16/hr, perhaps you should consider looking for a different work location.  However, I do believe most of us accepted our jobs knowing full well what the pay and perdiem rates were for that job.

[E-Z_MONEY]

Yeah, well "Bartlett" told a couple of techs they would be getting $18 and 80, but then boned us when we got here.  Anyways my point is that we are still getting screwed and I personally am sick of it and want to do something about it.

[RAD-GHOST]

$16.00 an hour?  They would have to be crazy to even think about working for that wage!

Even the old excuse's, of being close to home, or that outage lines up with the other one I am going to, doesn't cut it!  Any technician who works for that wage, need only look in the mirror to find the guilty party for keeping wages low!

This year, two plants have had some very real problems staffing, Seabrook and DC Cook.  Look what happened there!  They opened their wallets!  I believe Seabrook went to 21/90 with a monster bonus, ( somewhere between $7 and $11 an hour ).  Cook went to 21/70 and a $3000.00 show up bonus, plus hourly bonus!  Hell, they couldn't get techs at that rate!  I guess the $16.00 an hour was more appealing, due to logistics!

Many D&D and DOE sites have also posted for techs, with decent wages and PD.  If the responsibilities at home are so demanding, I suggest looking for another line of work, with equivalent pay, like so many other have done!  As the utilities get more creative with staff augmentaion, you will find outages getting even shorter in duration, with less staff and lower wages.  Although you may not believe it is possible, it is a fact!

Shortage of techs?  Overall I have to admit it is true, but not to the degree you may think.  Their are quite a number of techs who have focused on the D&D and DOE sector, I would estimate about 2000!  Since they choose the full time 40 hour home life, they certainly aren't going to venture back into the outage world, especially when they hear about $16.00 an hour wages!

The contract companies are using that to their advantage.  Since the creation of the Co-Employment issue, the contract companies have had their run of the industry, uncheck by the utilities.  They can put who they want, where they want, when they want!  The utilities are simply told that the shortage of available techs only allows for 80 to 90 percent staffing, at best!

Do you want the time, or the dime?  I'll take the dime!  I have seen many promises gone by the way side.  I have seen them served up on a silver platter, but complete failure on the delivery!  Based on that I'll sell myself to the highest bidder!  At the present time there are about 10 companies who supply technicians in the field, two in the utility sector.  I don't think the others want to get involved with the penny pinching utilities, that doesn't fit into their business plan and I don't blame them!

Mike, I think this is a topic that will probably piss some companies off, but one that is necessary.  The one major tool these companies use against the tech force, is communications, or should I say lack of it!  In the recent job posting section, I have noticed that many companies have refrained from posting the compensation, again another negative situation!  

I've had my say, Thanks!

[darkmatter]

Been there, done that. E Z Money is repeating history. That strike attempt in the 90's was bad news for the strikers with the utility backlash. I liked the idea of holding out on a individual basis, but too many Techs have the mindset/need of bills to pay, etc. I really have no fresh ideas for this, anybody else?

[SloGlo]

Yeah, well "Bartlett" told a couple of techs they would be getting $18 and 80, but then boned us when we got here.  Anyways my point is that we are still getting screwed and I personally am sick of it and want to do something about it.

next time you get quoted a package, have them fax it to you.  cuts down on the ole "i never said that" routine.

[E-Z_MONEY]

OK,
Here's the deal, I was told 18/ hr, and even though it was low pay, it's a SGRP so I knew I would be here for a while.  The problem is that then when I got here it was only 16/hr and I had already signed a 3 month lease.  I know that some places are paying really good ie. DC Cook and the other 1, but I NEEDED a job and these extra bonuses only come when people are "commited" to another job already.  I started this discussion to get people's ttention and try and STICK TOGETHER this spring so we don't get porked again.  OH YEAH the plant is Palo Verde and to top it all off after I got out here, they told us we were only working 60's!!!  

[E-Z_MONEY]

See this is what is so messed up.  I am trying to make people aware of what's going on and instead of everyone coming together and cooperating, you seem to want to pick apart what I have done.  THE POINT IS that yes, I did take ajob that wasn't paying very good, and then got worse (the pay and only 60's) but I am trying to make people aware that if we would all HOLD OUT the wages like DC COOK and Seabrook would end up being more abundant.  

[Rennhack]

See this is what is so messed up.  I am trying to make people aware of what's going on and instead of everyone coming together and cooperating, you seem to want to pick apart what I have done.  THE POINT IS that yes, I did take ajob that wasn't paying very good, and then got worse (the pay and only 60's) but I am trying to make people aware that if we would all HOLD OUT the wages like DC COOK and Seabrook would end up being more abundant.  

Letme get this straight, you are tellng us to not do what you have done?  To not take the low paying jobs?  Even if they are long term.  To hold out for premo pay?

[E-Z_MONEY]

WOW,
This is exactly why HP's will never get unionized, or stick together for that matter.  Here I am having to defend myself when all I was doing was trying to inform everybody of what we could do this spring to make more $$$.  But I guess you would rather look at the past instead of the future.  That's why HP's will stay at the bottom of the food chain.

[Rain Man]

See this is what is so messed up.  I am trying to make people aware of what's going on and instead of everyone coming together and cooperating, you seem to want to pick apart what I have done.  THE POINT IS that yes, I did take ajob that wasn't paying very good, and then got worse (the pay and only 60's) but I am trying to make people aware that if we would all HOLD OUT the wages like DC COOK and Seabrook would end up being more abundant.

The pay/contract/company/utilities situation has come up and been beat to death for what???......20-25 years.  This is business.  The pay may be good, may be bad.  The contract company may tell the truth, stretch the truth, or out right lie.  Utilities will change their schedules and have no obligation (unless regulatory, contractual or legal) to inform anyone least of all an HP.  We all make conscious decisions for what are considered good reasons.  If a company lies or misleads you, remember it and just don't work for them again, but remember to exit gracefully, as Mike pointed out.  If the schedule changes, well that is just the nature of the beast.  Contract RCTs are nothing more than another tool or piece of equipment for a utility to use as they see fit. Nothing more nothing less.  Not to kick dirt EZ-Money, but your user name sends a big signal.  If someone reads your posts and then looks at the user name more than a few will consider you a "whiner".  The EZ Money moniker will be directly related to your attitude.  Whether true or not is irrelevant.  This has never been a stable business for individuals and never will be.  We ALL take some jobs that pay higher occasionally, some lower occasionally.  There is lots of work out there but one needs to make compromises at times.  Too many people expect to never travel, have the eternal outage in their back yard, with diem, high wages, great hours, unlimited time off, fully paid insurance, etc.  Anything less is a screw job by the contactor, utilitiy, etc.  Hold your breath....we are just a minor speed bump to the nuke biz.  Like Mr. Rennhack stated...don't tell everyone to hold out for more when you decided for what are probably very good reasons to not hold out yourself.  Sounds a bit like how some of the contract companies and utilities operate, doesn't it??

[Rennhack]

I wasn't ganging up on you EZ, we have been preaching 'hold out' for four years.  Telling everyone to not take the low jobs.  -- Then you come along, take a low paying job, and try to tell the rest of us to not do it.  You taking that job made it ok to pay that amount of money.  At NTS, not a long drive from where you are. Seniors are getting $23-$26/hr $70/day -- There isn't much overtime, generally they work 4-10's.  But that is enough to pay the bills, and give some sort of quality of life.

I do appreciate you bringing this to our attention (16/hr for a Sr should be a crime), but look in the mirror.  You have a handle "EZ-Money", you had a pot leaf as your avatar, and you accepted a job for $18/hr when there are jobs to be had for $5/hr more.

Palo Verde only worked 60's when I worked there in 99 (I think).  That is their standard schedule, especially for a SGRP.  You should always ask what the "expected" schedule is, and understande that things change.  The job I am on was expected to be 6-10's but is 4-10's... That is life.  That is part of the buisness.  Try a job making $37k/yr, and see how this job looks then.

We are sticking together.  We are preaching the same words. I've done my part, and I have not accepted a job making $18/hr.  You have not done your part.  It is hard to accept, but you are partly at fault here.  "Next Spring" is one season too late.  Better late than never, but late none the less.  Try to not be so defensive, even thought it appears that we are attacking you.  We are not.  We are agreeing with you, so much so, that we want to know why you did not follow your own recomendations.

I know this won't put me on your favorite list, I'm sorry.  But the truth from a friend some times hurts, but it is meant to help you.

YOU have to do your part, next spring, and LAST spring, and THIS fall.  ALWAYS.  EVERY tech is responsiable, at all times.  Not just after he gets screwed.

Just don't except ANY work for anything under $23, or what ever your magic number is.  Perhaps it $28/hr, just do not except any job below that, and you will not show up at a job and complain about what you are getting paid.  

We are trying to help you.  We are telling you that we have been doing what you are asking us to do, it's not new to us.  We have been holding out for you.  Now, please hold out for the rest of us.

[Doc_REM]

EZ,
Sometimes you get the candy...sometimes you get the s.it!
I was one of those people back in 1990 giving the speaches from the back of a pick-up bed!!! And you know what it got us?..FIRED! Opps! Layed off!
I understand your feelings.
Since 1995 I have not worked any job for under $20.00/hr. plus P.D.. I know that some thing have changed, but I will NEVER work for anything below $22.50 hr. and P.D. again!
Rainman and Mike. I agree with just about everything you said. Most older tech's have gone to DOE and D&D sites, I'm at one right now making $22.50/P.D. and will be here for another 9 months! And all the over time I want, last week alone I had 72 hrs. and turned down working on Sun.
But, anyway, EZ I'm behind you %100...write me and let me know how the hold out is going, because it will be a long time before I work at a commercical plant again and I need to stray up with what they are going to pay me in the furtue.

[azkidd]

I believe EZ will get that $2/hr he is losing in the form of a bonus.  It equals being paid $18/hr, but was mis-informed that it really is $16/hr with a $2/hr bonus upon completion.  I went house, by the way.  And I see a lot of long term jobs on the Job section that may pay pretty well.  My 2 cents worth of beating a dead horse.

[E-Z_MONEY]

Hey guys,
I was just trying to see if people would be up for "HOLDING OUT" this spring because I thought it might be a good idea on how we could all make some more money.  I have watched NUKEWORKER and never have I seen anyone try and get people all communicating so we could better ourselves and our pocketbooks.  Mike said he has been holding out and needs me to now, WELL that was the whole point of me starting this discussion because I have never heard of people sticking together and if we did we would make more $$.  By the way E-Z MONEY was just a joke for a name so that it would get some attention.  KINDA IRONIC HUH??

[Rennhack]

EZ, Sorry to 'jump' on you.  It just kills me when we are 'holding out' for four years, then some one comes around with it as if it was a new idea, after admiting to accepting a low paying job.

Were you around when Rock Nelson BEGGED everyone to hold out?  That was about three to 3.5 years ago.  I've stayed out of low paying power plants since.  This requirement has kept me out of most power plants.  But I've learned a lot in the DOE and D&D worlds.

Hold out for more money, and tell everyone of the 'good, bad and ugly' jobs is what this site was founded on.  We are trying to connect people with jobs, and jobs with people.  The best people go to the best jobs, and the ...'not best' people end up with the not best jobs.

$18 is a bad rate...$16 & $2 is still a bad rate.  You have to stay... and I'll bet you save a few dollars.  But when the outage is over, come here to Nevada, we are always needing people (~$22/hr & 70/day -- 40 hrs).  Those damn aliens keep abducting our techs....

[DDD]

I'm with Mike I have been holding out since 1991 let me know when outages start paying enough $ to get me to hold out on DOE and enviromental clean-ups and I'll see you at that outage. In the meen time I think I'll spend some quality time with my family.  GOOD LUCK EZ

[RAD-GHOST]

  Hey EZ, I hope you are seeing from the feedback, that the hold out situation is actually in progress!  Their are many techs that simply wont go, without a certain minimum wage!  They, in fact, have been, and are holding out!
   Each tech makes his rush on the seasonal work and tries to put as many outages together as possible.  Holding out does not mean making commitments in November, for the 2004 Spring outage season.  Holding out means, sitting back and wait for the companies to call you!  As the outages approach with staffing voids, the dollars will increase.  It always has and always will!  The two outages described, in my previous posting, define that theory!
   Now that you stated that the site is Palo, you explained a lot.  Isn't this the site that is promising a ton of work, due to back to back outages, SGRP's?  You've bit into a big one!  I don't know who sells this stuff, but the promise of long term utility work, seems to drop wages to an incredable low!  The place does have some attractive feature.  Juniors and 18.1 can get some time in there!  Let them staff it with them!  As for 3.1's, I don't think so, to the wages!  Other questions, What does it take to get the Bonus?  A Bonus is a way of trapping you into staying at the place!  
   I have never experienced the changed wages upon arrival at the site.  I have always received what I was quoted!  If I didn't, I would make the necessary arrangements to correct the problem, Right or Flight!  I will say that on one occassion, due to other compensation issues, the necessary corrections had to be made as I was Body Counting out!
   Your not being picked on!  You just threw the long lived topic out there and received some feedback!  The issue resurfaced because it happened to you!  Hopefully, in the future, you will join the many who won't work for less.  Saying NO is not a bad thing!!
   Fear of the companies!  It is a sure thing, that the techs will call for work, but what if they didn't?  What if the contract companies and utilities didn't have a staff?  WOW, that would be a major shakeup!  What if all the techs aligned themselves under one company?  What if all the techs just took a season off?  Although our proffession isn't truely treated as a specialty, we do fill a necessary function.  It's the same old unanswered question, What if someone gave an outage and nobody showed?
Not to worry, they know it wouldn't happen!

[Rain Man]

EZ-Money,  Hope I wasn't too hard on you.  Remember one thing...we are the masters of our own fate.  At times we all make compromises for what we consider good reasons.  Don't get hung up on the pay/conditions/locations at one site.....you have many more down the road.  The next one may be better...maybe not.  That is our lot.  Also figured that the EZ-Money user ID was a gag but sometimes the joke is lost on people.  Then you get a response that wasn't expected.  Then it is too late to say it was just a joke...the damage has been done.  Good luck to you.

[oldradman]

 

 IT IS LIKE ALWAYS, CAN NOT GET THE HP'S TO STICK TOGETHER.THATS WHY WE ARE AND WILL ALWAYS BE UNDER PAID. YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE THE CHOSEN FEW , NO BACK BONE, AND WILL SETTLE FOR  THE BULLSHIT, LIKE THE STRIKE AT PALO VERDE IN 89, WHEN THE TECHS. WENT BACK TO WORK FOR BRUCEY, WHEN HE GAVE THEM A BUCK INCREASE ON THEIR PERDIEM.
THEY WENT IN,SCARED FOR THIER JOBS.

[rsteebe]

I was at Crystal River during the strike and went into the plant to pick up my belongings and body count on the first night.  Ray Roberts was the supervisor on shift that day and arrogantly referred to me as another contractor "SCAB."  I suppose you could justify that statement, though ultimately with little justification.  I stood the line with the rest of the techs and supported the effort till the end, and heard all the speeches from the beds of pickup trucks.  Some of the speeches were intelligently spoken and convincing, other speeches were merely words with hollow meaning, then the two IBEW stooges were there also, I don't need to speak further about them.  There were also craft workers who stood the line with the HP's, or at least were occupying seats at the bar across the street, where many of the HP's spent each day of the work stoppage.  What is most disturbing about the whole strike/work stoppage, some of the people who came in from Turkey Point to replace those on the line, inside the plant, then the people who were doing most of the preaching from the pickup beds were also returning to the plant to work, then the rest of the line followed.  Those craft workers who had permission and authorization to represent organization were out of a job, not allowed back into the plant.  

It is always comforting to see a bunch of people speak so strongly against something(or a few convince others), yet support the very situation that forced the work stoppage and cross the lines of organization, so much for unity.  There will not be organization/unionization in this business among HP's, and there should not be, I don't need to justify it beyond that, it should be self explanatory.  Each technician should manage their own economy and forget about becoming involved in an organized effort.  The so called organized effort of the 90's was terribly unorganized, which is in symmetry with this business.  If you do not like what you are getting from this business and majority jobs, hold out for the money you do want, increase your worth through experience and education/job training, or diversify and leave it for good.  Otherwise, attempt to make the best of your situation and quit your complaining, YOU are solely responsible for your existence and worth, justify it.

[trailorqueen]

As it may be easy for some of the more experienced seniors to hold out for higher pay, some of us newer seniors have fewer choices.  With the growing number of us(new seniors), they are able to staff the lower paying jobs with people trying to get in time and make a name for themselves.  I don't know how it was for y'all to go from junior to senior, but from what I hear most of the techs who made the transition "back in the day" you had already established a relationship with contracting companies, utilities, and other techs.  It is kinda hard to do that when all you are as a junior now is a warm body biding their time.  But I digress, that is entirely another subject.  

All I am trying to say is, newer techs haven't had enough time to show their worth, making it harder for them to hold out for a higher pay.  Looking forward to the time when I can.

[ex-turbine_cowboy]

 I don't know how it was for y'all to go from junior to senior, but from what I hear most of the techs who made the transition "back in the day" you had already established a relationship with contracting companies, utilities, and other techs.  It is kinda hard to do that when all you are as a junior now is a warm body biding their time.

Let me see if I can recall back that far.  The companies I worked with counted the days and weeks to make up my time.  It took me from March of 1980 to August of 1982 to get in my 24 working months.  Then I worked as a senior until July 1997.  Then I was a Project Support Engineer until June of 2002. Then I kicked back and Read Nukeworker every day until today.  Then I saw this thread on the famous Strike of 1990 and puked all over again. By the way in 1989 when Brucie Boy gave every body a dollar to please them I went to Rockie Flats - JS the site coordinator was to busy messing with everybodies wives and lives.

Iffin ya can't take the heat the git out of the drywell.

[SloGlo]

iffen ya can't hold out fer better pay, hold out fer a better job, better site, better hours.... the pay will come.

[RAD-GHOST]

 I isn't a sin to say, " NO "!  18.1 is 4,000 hours and 3.1 is 6,000 hours, what else is there?  New Seniors may be selling themselves short!  If a company feeds you some sort of story, on your limited qualifications, tell them thanks and move on!  Of course the contract companies are going to offer you less, it's happened to all of us, that is business!  If you except less, that is also your business!  But in todays world, Cheap is for Keeps!  If they can buy you once for under market wages, you'll always be offered below market wages!

  If nobody commits to a job, sooner or later, they'll raise the rate!  You would be surprised how much an 18.1 could earn hourly, if they just said NO a couple of times!  Funny thing, every plant I've been to, never limits the amount of work a new senior can do, just the wages!

[Rennhack]

Cheap is for Keeps!  If they can buy you once for under market wages, you'll always be offered below market wages!

Amen.  When I was first inthe buisness, I NEEDED the experience.  I worked mostly with bartlett, and they kept me working.  They also paid me as little as they could (Thats good buisness).  I accepted the jobs, because I needed the time.  Once I bacame a Sr, I no longer accepted those jobs.  Make a little rule for your self.  Require that you make more money each job.  And look for the job the pays more, even if it is on the other side of the country. (Count per diem into the equation).

Once I quit accepting low paying jobs, they quit calling me with the low paying job offers.  Think of it from their point of view.  

Lets say:

1:  They have a guy that bids contracts,some are bid high, some are bid low.
2:  Then you have another guy that staffs the contracts.  He has one job for $15/hr and one for $30/hr.  
3:  You also have two guys that need jobs, and one always turns down low paying jobs, and one guy that takes any job offered to him.  -- Can you guess who gets which job?

[JassenB]

I find this to be an interesting thread, since it reminds me of the similar situation that framers and finish carpenters find themselves in, especially with having to go from builder to builder to find work and the wages constantly varying.

Since this appears to be the common theme, what should I be holding out for in terms of wage in order to help the industry out? I realize this discussion applies more to the Senior HP folks, and I will be a brand new jr hp doing my first outages this coming spring, so this may not be of much matter to most of you.

[Rennhack]

I find this to be an interesting thread, since it reminds me of the similar situation that framers and finish carpenters find themselves in, especially with having to go from builder to builder to find work and the wages constantly varying.

Since this appears to be the common theme, what should I be holding out for in terms of wage in order to help the industry out? I realize this discussion applies more to the Senior HP folks, and I will be a brand new jr hp doing my first outages this coming spring, so this may not be of much matter to most of you.

As a junior, you should be looking for the longer jobs, so you can get the time,and the back-to-back-to-back jobs.  Take any job as a junior that pays enough to cover your bills.  -- Work your butt off, and make a name for yourself.  That way, when you DO have the time, you CAN demand top dollar.  The Control Point ranger types, with no reputation have to take those low paying jobs, but you don't need to.  When you get to the outage, go to the shift supervisor with a smile on your face, and a gleem in your eye.  Tell them you are willing to work your butt off, and want to learn, learn, learn!  I'll bet you a hundred bucks that you get all of the quality work experience you can handle.  

[RAD-GHOST]

  Like I said in a prior posting, an 18.1 is 4000 Hours!  A 3.1 is 6000 Hours!  The pays the same, no matter where you play cards, or what you do during the outage!  The only thing that seperates the Dweebs from the real techs, is the amount of satisfaction you get from doing a good job!  
  The utilities and contract companies don't give a rats Arse!  Bodies, simply Bodies!  It's kind of a nice thing to know, even with a labotomy, you still have a 100 percent chance of a good hit, five months a year!

[PWHoppe]

This thread has taken on a subtle but significant turn. Now we are talking about co-employment issues (good techs vs bad techs) we all remember getting black listed at plants because of being politically incorrect or not partying with the right folks. However because of these issues resumes typically no longer have names on them. This is a double edged sword for the person staffing the outage. I was the geek tasked with bringing in the techs for many years, the drill was the site coordinator would bring me resumes and I would check them for experience. I could rubber stamp many of them based on name alone because I knew the quality of the technician, in many many cases, I would wave senior entrance exam scores because I knew the technicians ability but also knew they were a little light in the theory area. Maybe not ethical but I wanted the techs at my outages that would be there every day, could cover a job, and knew what was what when the rubber hits the road. I would also help them buff up their skills in the area of theory. I learned long ago not everyone in this business had the benefit of formal training and as such were unaware of the fine points, but they were willing to work hard and put in the time. I digress

After the no-name resume phase it came down to a bean counter thing...so someone who had a lot of time hiding in the break trailer because they were the site coordinators girlfriend/boyfriend or party buddy got in while a tech who has been out covering work and doing their best to really learn got left out....doesn't seem fair does it?

I give up, I don't have an easy solution because I also realize there are too many jerkweeds reviewing resumes willing to screw over a good tech  for telling a joke that goes against their personal point of view.

'nuff said....pat now climbs off his flimsy soap box...sorry

[RAD-GHOST]

  Yes I agree, this thread has been twisted just a bit, but like any conversation it flows with input!  It started with reference to the strike of the 90's and techs unhappy with their present wages.  Now it seems like the kids are just getting testy!

   I also served in staffing positions many times in the past.  I also had the privelage of picking who I wanted, when they were available.  Most of the time I would communicate with the techs directly via telephone and wait for the resume to arrive!  You can't do that today!  It's like your neighbors, you can't pick them, you just have to live with whoever moves in!  

   I will also dedicate my time to helping those who wish to be helped, but their hard to come by.  Lots of newbies already know everything and everyone.  Funny, the first questions asked, by most of the newbies is, " How much time do you have"?  I guess it's some sort of way of establishing the pecking order!  Hell, I've seen three year techs with a twenty page resume.  I think they now hire based on paper weight and creative writing!  I can't tell you how many times, in the last four years, I've heard the same old saying from management, " They're a new senior, keep an eye on them"! It has come to the point where they can send whoever they want.  We may be assigned to the same area, but that doesn't mean I have to work with them!  I may sound a little bitter, but I'll give everybody a chance, I just don't give second ones any longer! I think they deem this, " A Personality Conflict"!

Pat, stay on the soap box!  It's good input and the way business was and should be again!

[drdvv]

I just stumbled on to this post and thought it interesting. Up until last year I worked for a utility and may have run into to some of you. I have been an RCT/RPT, supervisor, Rad Engineer, and a trainer. So I can speak with some experience.

Becoming a Union is not always the best route, but it may be the only route.

Although I have not read all of the messages in this thread has anybody looked into seeing what the negatives of being in a union are?

They are also subject to favoritism. Seniority rules so if you have a Senior who is a good guy or a bad guy who can get the best jobs just because of seniority, then what?

I spent twelve and a half years in the union and it certainly guaranteed me set wages and benefits, but on a personal level leaves very little room for personal or professional growth. That is when I opted to go to management. Point is this, being in a union may not be all it is cracked up to be.

But then the given the current situation, it may be the best thing going.

You have to ask yourself what it is you want from a union, where will it help and where is it going to hurt?

And most importantly that it takes time to put it together. Do you have to go on strike to get a union? I wouldn't think so but I don't know. Will it mean training and who will pay for it?
Do you have people who are willing to commit themselves to putting this together and are the rest willing to support the efforts financially? Who will pay for the travel of the committee, how is the committee put together, getting a union lawyer, and what will go into the union doctrine?

Will you model existing unions or will you create brand new to fit this community, or a combination of both?
What will the union dues be? Will you have to be part of an existing parent organization?
The bottom line here is it worth it.

Whatever you decide know this, if you are going to pursue something like this do it as professionals not as loose cannons that the contract companies will quickly label you as. There is certainly a lot of potential and an idea whose time may be near. But is it what you really want.

I don't think the contracting companies want this it would put them put of businesses since isn't this what business agents from unions do?

Good luck

David

[DJ@Retired]

Why don't you guys pick a plant the pays the least. Tell everyone that plant is off limits till it raises it pay. Do this one by one to each of the low ball plants intill they raise there pay. You should get some results. Sure you'll get local people going to a plant that you pick. But would you really go to a plant knowing that it might only be staffed at 50% for an outage. So Someone pick a low paying plant. Then get the word out. This site is the perfect for getting the word out. JMHO DJ

[alphadude]

as for performance evaluations-there are several metrics that may be readily used however the adminstration is only as good as those doing the evaluation.  the simple ones such as ontime-no sick days etc. are easy to track and manage. with the others,  goals must be set, managers must provide resources to reach those goals, and then they have to be monitored-and feed back provided-that is where this whole thing falls apart with RATS.  most of the supervision i have see are "field commission" supervisors.  you see very little "growth" situations provided by RAT companies,most are marginal on management training and very few have taken any formal college on business management skills.. its not a good fit for RAT companies

[Chimera]

While I may agree, in principle, with the merits of a union to help standardize pay rates and per diem, there are other issues involved.  Back in the late '70's and again in the late '80's, there were serious movements to unionize the road techs.  My big fear back then (and now) was that the individuals we couldn't stand on the road would end up in charge of the union.  There just aren't enough Pat Hoppe's and too many Mel Hench's (did i spell them right?).

Because of the perils of lawsuit country, tech evaluations would have to come from the Site Coordinators and be handled by the contractor companies versus the utilities.  Does anyone else see a fundamental problem with this set up?  I have worked for some very good site coordinators but I have also worked for some less than stellar individuals holding that same job.  As an old site coordinator myself, I also realize that those evaluations would tend to be more subjective than objective - intangibles such as realibility, trust, and individual idiosyncracies would have a major role in those evaluations.

I don't like the principle of union seniority being the over-riding factor in job decisions.  I didn't like it when I was in the union and I like it even less now.

While I agree there has to be a happy middle ground where we can all (mostly) agree, I don't have a clue where it may be.  I do like the idea of the techs acting collectively to freeze out the low-paying sites and/or companies but I realize that would be very hard to coordinate.

As to the statement that we are all to divisive to cooperate on issues such as unionization, have you noticed the commonality to the comments in this thread?  We are speaking with pretty much the same voice!  We all seem to recognize the necessity for some sort of common action, but the conventional tools at hand offer poor choices.

I vote for Pat Hoppe to lead us out of this wasteland with Mike Rennhack as our navigator . . . yanno, that was only partially tongue-in-cheek.

In the meantime, live up to your own personal ethics and standards.  That's taken us a long way from $5/hour and $30/day and sucking rubber until the cartridges fall off.

[Rain Man]

Because of the perils of lawsuit country, tech evaluations would have to come from the Site Coordinators and be handled by the contractor companies versus the utilities.  

The society in which we function has become such a legal battlefield on this issue that a lawyer would only approve of a totally unbiased, unprejudiced, objective evaluation.  And even then they would take issue with it.  I have yet to meet the "saint" who is totally unbiased, unprejudiced, and objective.  That person does not exist.  As in a previous post to this thread I stated that most companies will only verify employment which should send its own signal.  Haven't heard of any lawsuits against employers for saying someone was a good employee (at least not yet).  As far as Site Coordinators doing evaluations, this raises the issue of how objective can they be without daily and direct observation of the worker?  It is a sad day when good workers are held back because of slugs, no-loads and their lawyers that hide under the umbrella of the law.  It is so true that the law and justice are not necessarily the same thing.  Mike and PWHoppe carrying the flag on this??  It's tough being the point man when you know he's usually the first one taken out.  

[alphadude]

evaluations-- contracting and evaluations are not a good fit.. behavior and performance based evaluations are derived from at least 6 months of observation by the employer.. if u wish to get evaluated-get a perm job-the record keeping and risk is too much for a temp company to maintain.. those records have to be kept for while and who wants the hassle..  they are always subject to freedom of info..no records is best sometimes-unless u are on double secret probation

[RAD-GHOST]

When your not a Newbie!  I don't agree with the 30R club, even though I am over the mark.  Life time dose does somehow display a relationship to experience.  It's just hard to believe that a 3, or 5 years senior, with a lifetime of 200MR, has had much experience in the trenches.  Todays industry has adopted many new tools to prevent dose, even for the techs.  This may be hard to believe, for some people out there, but there was a day when CCTV's weren't available in the industry!

A few months back, I worked with a relatively new senior.  He was a great co-worker and had his head on his shoulders.  He didn't walk into the job acting like he was the greatest gift to the industry and knew everything there was to know.  His first question was, " Fill me in on that is happening "?  He actually put his respirator on and walked the job down and asked questions!  Over the course of the next five days, he came to the shift meeting, learned all the routines and all the workers by name.  I guess you would have to say, he took interest in that he was doing!  I was kind of nice knowing that he could answer the questions that I couldn't!

Now, here is how you know your a Newbie!  A couple of years back, while at a SGRP.  A junior was assigned with me at containment.  The junior had been on site for nine months!  While we sat at the desk, the tech kept looking at the containment entrance repeatedly.  I finally asked, " What are you looking at "?  They replied, " Whats inside there", pointing to the entrance.  I found out that the tech had never been inside the containment building, or any other containment.  I asked them if they wanted to take a tour.  The reply was, " NO, I don't want to go in there, unless I absoluty have to!

Draw your own conclusions from the two stories, that junior is now a senior!  Maybe working next to you!

I also noted a couple of postings on evaluations on this thread.  One major topic to consider in evaluations,  Missed Time!  This includes late days and absence, there the same thing!  If you have two late days and one absence, thats three incidence! In a thirty day outage, that is 10 % of the time!  Even your best worker isn't worth a damn if he doesn't show up!

[Rain Man]

When your not a Newbie!  I don't agree with the 30R club, even though I am over the mark.  Life time dose does somehow display a relationship to experience.

Relationship of dose to experience IS a bad trap to fall into.  High lifetime exposure definitely does not mean you know what is up.  Have known more that a few knuckleheads with a lot of employment related dose that couldn't keep their act together.  For many people with high lifetimes it is to a degree a badge of honor to have lived the days of 3 Rem/qtr, 12 Rem/year, ALARA was not regulatorily driven, and jumpers were run up to 2850 (and sometimes higher) on pencil dosimeters.  There are a lot of good people still out there who remember.  There's lots of great stories.  But be sure of one thing.....things were very different back then.

[Already Gone]

While I agree in principle that techs need to prove competency by showing knowledge (measured by testing) and experience (measured by their resumes), I totally disagree with his idea that a monkey could do this work.
The fact is that a monkey could "go through the motions" and end up with a positive result most of the time, simply because no technical ability was required.  (We all can name scores of jobs when we asked ourselves "what am I diong here?")  It is the minority of cases where a tech is actually needed on a job that make our knowledge and experience necessary.
Yeah, I complain about making the same money as a Senior tech who has been sitting at a control point knitting a scarf as the sum total of her career.  I also get a little miffed at the techs who think that they are "the be-all and end-all" of rad protection.
The way I see it, I have been a senior HP for 16 years, was a Navy ELT before that, and I still have something to learn about my job every time I show up.  Every job is a unique situation.  Knowledge and experience might get you there.  But I have to admit that I don't know close to everything before I pick up the meter.  Even the sharpest knife begins to dull with the very first cut.  So, a rusty butterknife like me has to stay on the ball or it will surely roll over me.

[RDTroja]

Wow, I can't believe that I have missed all of this vitriolic fun over the last few days.

People who think dose relates to experience need to pull their heads out of whatever cavities into which they have found their way. If you find value in dose, you need help.

The only way to determine the worth of another tech is to work with them or trust the opinions of those who have. In short, reputation is the most valuable thing that each of us has and what we must nurture and protect.

How good are you at what you do? Have you developed a keen intuition when things are about to go bad, or do you just recover from problems that have already occurred? Are you willing to share your experience, teach others freely what may have cost you to learn? Do you put your best effort into each assignment or feel slighted when you don't get the 'plum' job? Do you pitch in and help without being asked or are you just another victim of personal inertia?

Bottom line: Do people want to work with you or avoid you?

If you build your reputation carefully you will be able to go where you want, get better assignments and get rewarded for your efforts. Too many of us are looking for the free ride. If you are, get off the bus -- we don't want you here.

Now back on subject, please.

[HousePuke]

Right on the money Mr. Troja.
Show up with a positive attitude every day.  Do what is ask / expected of you.  Have good attention to detail.  And depart on good terms.  You will find that there are plenty of good opportunities out there with better than average pay.
The point on reputation that Mr. Troja so eloquently expressed is exactly what will open or close doors for you.
I would work with / for Mr. Troja anytime, anywhere.

[Showme T. Money]

Why haven't Road Techs (HP and Decon) ever tried to unionize?  Every outage I go to I always hear that we got the short end of the stick, so why don't we do something about it.  I guess that it would be to easy to have someone looking out for the working road tech.  Would anyone else out there be interested in trying to start or join some Union?

[RRhoads]

geez..you must must be kinda new...it was a dismal failure in 1990??(89')...memory escaping me at the moment.
My POV....
Great idea in theory...
There has been only 1 plant where that i've worked where i got ALL the bennies of being unionized..Clinton...The only place i got paid 12 hrs on DT!
The rest of those "union" plants...it is nothing but Dues to work..really SUCKS!!!
It is a very difficult concept & practice to get all of the "road" techs to organize.
We have been non-union for so long now...it is nearly impossible for everyone to agree on even the issue of having some sort representation.

[SloGlo]

we agreed on the issue of representation.   our reps, ibew 1500, sold us down the river.  it was a nice dream while it lasted.  one local for the entire country.  unfortunately, the union couldn't handle it and gave us up without a fight.

[Rad Sponge]

Companies may lose or make money.

Workers may lose  or make money.

Your union always makes money.

[Surveyors_mato]

I believe now that my position of almost two years ago, was in error. I'v grown so much , my old BA would be disappointed. Union is as union does.....very little anymore.

[Rennhack]

Why don't you guys pick a plant the pays the least. Tell everyone that plant is off limits till it raises it pay. Do this one by one to each of the low ball plants intill they raise there pay. You should get some results. Sure you'll get local people going to a plant that you pick. But would you really go to a plant knowing that it might only be staffed at 50% for an outage. So Someone pick a low paying plant. Then get the word out. This site is the perfect for getting the word out. JMHO DJ

Your solution is there, you just have to find it.

[Dustball]

Us old road techs ~ gone house here at Monti have tried preaching the pay them more concept to our management.  If you want the pick of the litter, you have to pay.  But I have to apologize to you roadies.... it goes in one ear and out the other. Our last outage we had some "interesting" contractors to say the very least!  Even hired some mexican RP's.  Awesome workers, could speak a little more than a lick of english.  We've even brought up the fact that ok...if you're not willing to pay the top wages, then treat these people like professionals and make them part of our team.  Let them know we need them, because we do!  This is business right?   I remember when I was treated as one of the "bunch" at some plants.  Typically I had no problem saying yes to them to return.  We told management to contact contractors and let them know you apreciated their help, send them a shirt, send them a thank you gift certificate, send a christmas card (just thinking of you during the holidays), I can go on.  Simple, cheap, thoughtful.  If you're close in the pay range maybe a simple thank you will get a contractor to sway their decision enough to come help you out vs. the plant down the river.  The shortages are for real.  They talk about them here.  They just never have an answer except we made it through last time....we'll do it again.  Last outage we were short and we took the blunt of it.  Worked our butts off, the flu started going around, people calling in sick put the work load higher causing more people to be worn out in which they then got sick.... It was fun!  I can hardly wait until 2007.  Good thing we're on a 2yr cycle!

[LaFeet]

The industry will most likely raise our pay in the near future.  Every outage is being ran with fewer techs. Also, more techs are either working long term DOE sites or getting out of the business.  I ahve seen a slight increase within the past year.

As for holding out.. I can allways live off my unemplotment and retirement.

[Gonzo]

you know, i worked palo verde's outage fall of 2oo3...   a senior hp tech...   and my pay was twenty something an hour, per diem 85 i think....    i know it's an old entry and who ever started this probably doesn't read this anymore but i'm thinking we misunderstood...

as for wages high or low..  the whole beauty of this business is our control over when and where we work...   

[illegalsmile]

Why don't you guys pick a plant the pays the least. Tell everyone that plant is off limits till it raises it pay. Do this one by one to each of the low ball plants intill they raise there pay. You should get some results. Sure you'll get local people going to a plant that you pick. But would you really go to a plant knowing that it might only be staffed at 50% for an outage. So Someone pick a low paying plant. Then get the word out. This site is the perfect for getting the word out. JMHO DJ

OK, so who should we stay away from this fall?

[SuckPump]

I work at Hanford for Fluor.    They pay Sr. RCT's $30.58/hr.    The benefits are not that great but at least we have something.     There are going to be layoffs in the next few years and the clean up and D and D start winding down.  I believe Washington Closure Group is hiring.  Fluor is not hiring.  CH2M Hill is not hiring at the moment.  That is all I know. 

[Content1]

Look at a DOE site in INEEL, with per diem for only 2 month.   In order to qualify for per diem, you must prove you are maintaining another household back in your home state, so they know you have additional costs.  Then to pull it away after 2 month on the excuse it is "Long Term."  Long term is in the eye of the beholder.  If they are unwilling to pay per diem, they should not be surprised that no body goes, regardless if the pay is $30/hr, or $1200 a week before taxes.  My daughter, the jr. deconner makes over $1300/week with per diem at an outage, based on a $9.50 hour based rate, $85/day per diem, and 11.5 hour days/6 days a week.  I could not understand why a senior would take such a pay cut.  They claim they are "benefits" such as vacation and medical; however, if you were really ill you would not get the job in the first place to use the benefits.  As for the vacation, you get your 2 weeks a year. A road traveler get 5 months of vacation time  a year, especially if you file in a State like MA or WA getting around $550/wk unemployment.   Maybe when the new nuke plants come online, and with a 5 year pipeline to go from deconner to senior, they may get desperate and raise some of the wages.

[Mike McFarlin]

If its that bad, go home and wait for better wages.

[let-it-ride]

Not only at INL is per diem stopped after 30 days, but the class that just had their per diem stopped, were told by BARTLETT, that they would get a 3% raise after the diem stopped. Guess what, NO ONE GOT THE RAISE!!. It is one thing for Bartlett to hold you to a commitment, but why do they not honor their promise.
INL is a well kept secret for doing easy work. There is none better. The problem is that the contract companies are taking advantage of the workers again. BARTLETT   HONOR YOUR PROMISE!!! 

[Eric_Bartlett]

Not only at INL is per diem stopped after 30 days, but the class that just had their per diem stopped, were told by BARTLETT, that they would get a 3% raise after the diem stopped. Guess what, NO ONE GOT THE RAISE!!. It is one thing for Bartlett to hold you to a commitment, but why do they not honor their promise.
INL is a well kept secret for doing easy work. There is none better. The problem is that the contract companies are taking advantage of the workers again. BARTLETT   HONOR YOUR PROMISE!!! 

First off its 60 days that an individual will recieve reimbursements for lodging, meals, and incidentals not 30.   Secondly all of the Bartlett techs that were and are working on this individual contract that were on site prior to the diem change recieved a pay increase prior to the change in August '06 and then come October 1st y'all rec'd an additional increase - if for some reason you did not get either increase you should give either myself or Marie a shout so we can look into and rectify the situation, if it needs rectifying.  HELP US TO HELP YOU!

[OldHP]

Some folks just like to "b", those are the folks that would yell if you gave them a "cool million" in USD that they would have prefered it in Krugerrands.

No matter who you are working for "help the office to help you".  If you have or had a problem, try the office first (or maybe look at the rate on your pay stub - did you forget you missed an hour last pay period?).

[snowman]

I work at Hanford for Fluor.    They pay Sr. RCT's $30.58/hr.    The benefits are not that great but at least we have something.     There are going to be layoffs in the next few years and the clean up and D and D start winding down.  I believe Washington Closure Group is hiring.  Fluor is not hiring.  CH2M Hill is not hiring at the moment.  That is all I know. 

Actually SuckPump, the bennies here aren't that bad. Not what they were, but still not bad. Think Bartlett's going to charge their single technicians 10 bucks a week for medical? Try 10 times that amigo! Got a family and want medical? 800/month and up. Most rent-a-techs don't get bennies because they're considered temporary employees. I never once was offered benefits when I did outages between '83-'92. Not once.

As for the entry about Monticello bringing in temporary outage workers (I'm guessing you were referring to HP's) who can barely speak a word of English...Not a good sign if you're a rental tech trying to squeeze a few more bucks out of the client.

[nukems]

I know this is a old thread but let's reiterate the same thing again

Bartlett's very long 2011 spring outage listAttention all SR, JR RP, Decon and Alara Techs
For your financial future jump on the Band Wagon and do not commit early to
Spring outages.
Hold Out for union back-up contracts. We all know there is no way Bartlett can Staff
All of the outages next spring. Actually no one can 
We all NEED to let the Staffing Companies know we Deserve more wages. We are the Lowest Paid group in the nuclear industry.  Hold out, hold out!!!
Please do not Commit early.

[johnnyreb]

  certainly everyone in plymouth is well paid and endowed with benefits. to them we are cash cows. to us they are a pain in the teat

[Content1]

I know this is a old thread but let's reiterate the same thing again

Bartlett's very long 2011 spring outage listAttention all SR, JR RP, Decon and Alara Techs
For your financial future jump on the Band Wagon and do not commit early to
Spring outages.
Hold Out for union back-up contracts. We all know there is no way Bartlett can Staff
All of the outages next spring. Actually no one can 
We all NEED to let the Staffing Companies know we Deserve more wages. We are the Lowest Paid group in the nuclear industry.  Hold out, hold out!!!
Please do not Commit early.

Are you serious?  They seem to have no trouble in staffing, as I notice right before an outage season most of the sites say taking back up names only.  Wages are not set by anyone, we live in a free market and Bartlett is a player.   Wages are not striclyly a supply and demand thing, as if one worker is as good as another.  What happens is if one pays too low, they get the uniformed and the dregs, when they pay high, the best compete to get it.   So if you want higher wages, the better stategy is don't be a slug and strive to be the best in the industry.  How to get to be the best? That is for another post.   Withholding acceptance just makes you miss out.

[techtoolong]

There are about 44 outages in the Spring.  I think it would be hard to miss out.  I talked to someone at Oconee today and they are 20 techs short for there 10/24/10 shutdown. It is no secret there is a shortage of Senior Techs including the ones at the bottom and under the barrel

[UncaBuffalo]

Are you serious?  They seem to have no trouble in staffing, as I notice right before an outage season most of the sites say taking back up names only.  Wages are not set by anyone, we live in a free market and Bartlett is a player.   Wages are not striclyly a supply and demand thing, as if one worker is as good as another.  What happens is if one pays too low, they get the uniformed and the dregs, when they pay high, the best compete to get it.   So if you want higher wages, the better stategy is don't be a slug and strive to be the best in the industry.  How to get to be the best? That is for another post.   Withholding acceptance just makes you miss out.

If you have your heart set on a particular site, then, Yes, you need to confirm early, or you might miss out.

For those of us who have the luxury of not needing to be at a particular site, I think waiting is a good plan.  There always seems to be a couple of outages that bump their wages up at the last minute.  I like being available to accept those dollars.

jmo

[techtoolong]

I think that was the point.  I am not to sure why anyone would jump on anything this spring

[hamsamich]

buffalo is right on the $$$ as usual.

[Content1]

We have the same problems as house techs.  At DOE sites, there has been shortages and they pay the new untrained $3 more per hour because they have had trouble getting people.   They do not bump up the pay of the more qualified existing people.   It really sucks.  Your only recourse is to quit when the pay differential becomes so insulting that you can't take it.    I work at the Lawrence Livermore National Lab, and apparently it is the same way at the Nevada Test site and other DOE sites, and management doesn't seem to care..

[roadhp]

Not that way at Hanford.  Everyone on site, no matter what the company, gets union scale.  The only problem is if you are house they have a bump and roll policy.  If one company lays people off, then they can come in and take other people's jobs in another company who have lower seniority, even if they are slugs and the more junior people can single handedly take on the world.  That is my problem with some unions...you are only worth you're sign up date, not your job ethic or abilities.