Rent a tech Union debate

[biloxoi blues]

Here is a simple difference between union and companies on pay.  Unions take out after you get paid.  Companies take out before you get paid.  Do you know the uproar it would cause if we got paid what our companies billed the power units and then we had to  pay our companies their share?(500 to 700 dollars a week) The companies get roughly 8 to 10 dollars (I know its some kind of ratio, let me know if Im wrong) an hour for "their" or "our" services I get that part confused for some reason.  So either way  "we can pay them now or pay them later"

[Tina]

Tina didnt you get your training under a union program? Were you not trained in accord with union seniority rules? Wasnt your pay a direct result of union agreements? Wasnt your medical for that time period a result of union benefits?  or are we missing something here?  were you not treated on a fair basis within the union contract (no male or female preference) ? were others in your pay grade making more and doing less? didnt respect for a safety culture come from a union environment?  did you enter the union as tech skilled or unskilled? If skilled were your skills not enhanced, unskilled needless to say....

sounds like the union had a lot to do with your life as far as the skills you demonstrate as a tech.

My  point is I give the credit to the NRC not the union and not the hiring company.... the NRC set the standards and requirment that each an every employee has to meet and its up to the hiring company to see to it that the people filling the positions are at that standard .... so then if the hiring company gives the training to meet the standards where dose the union fit in... as far as education I went to school and worked nights at the power plant no help from the union and no help from the company either but none was expected... I choose my own route... and still kept up with my job proforrmance .... the senority rules training was just like the basic consept of "The Senority Rules" which ment I spent my first four years on the job on night shift till enough turnover occured to let me go to days shift... we had young single guys and gals with no family life that had more senority working day shift and I was a working mom missing my kids high school years because I had less senority and had to work nights but you know what no biggy its called life .... when life gives you lemons make margeritas...by the time I got to days I had more education and was able to become a traveling tech with some smarts... and those first four years was a fear of down sizing the work force so the less senoir employees could be laid off at any time....now as for fairness Ive worked with males that were hired for their brute strength not their HP proformance ... and females that were let go not for their HP proframance either... and I found its pretty much the same everywhere... I get to a project or a site and no one knows my capabilities until they work along side of me then they find out what I am personally capable of ... you know the types reliable, dependable, hard working .... and I do my job and go on ... nothing unfair about it .... If you work quess what a company will let you ... mind boggling concept huh.... as for pay and medical being a union benny nope cant say it was the hiring company offered Blue Cross no union input for that as for pay the Power company told the union its offer and guess what we got... what the company offered although it did come down to the quote" Best and Final Offer" yea believe thats how it was put to us...I paid dues for that and still lost money ... the NRC put standards inplace not the union, not the company, and not the employees....

[alphadude]

Tina I agree Unions would not do a lot for you.

but back to the original- dont expect equal pay in a non union environment- others will get more than you because of advantage or less than you because of disadvantage for the same work

management has the right to manage and selection of pay is part of the deal.. we are not contractually bound to pay equal pay unless in a union agreement generally- so if there is an advantage to offering ...  yadda yadda 

Acutally, INPO ACAD did more for training than anybody- (yea for INPO)



I hear the voices...

[Tina]

  Ok so then Im suppose to one join a union = pay union dues and then the pay will be straight across the board at the rate of the lowest pay scale in use at the time ...
It seems to me the Ill not only lose my money due to union dues but Ill also have to fall down to the lowest pay scale of the so called less fortunant ...

[azkidd]

but the beauty is im non union so its not propaganda if I dont belong to the party.. Im management

how did you come to the conclusion that unions are not part of the safety culture?  Unions partner with safety and are contractually bound to do so.  (safety culture is beyond "protect the core" mentality)

Sorry alphadude, I DID not say that Unions were unsafe, nor do they have a safety culture.  Safety is EVERYONES responsibility, and if it has to be contractual..... then it must not be a mind set.  Anyway, nope, never worked Union, was a part of the Debacle in '90 and '91.  You don't even know me, and I am a RAT?  Please explain why you call us RATS.  Is it because we share the opposite opinions of you?  So, all people against Unions are RATS?  Like I said earlier, you do spread propaganda, and you do share the same mentality as the Mafia bosses.

[alphadude]

Rent A Tech   RAT

been there done that (RAD, ALLIED, ARC, NSS, Combustion) now that was when the money flowed and flowed and flowed-

Contractual agreement leads to civil protection. Nothing wrong with that! Ensure legal and financial obligation. (its boiler plate on all contracts)

house mouse nice try but you got a long way to go...I think you want to be in management...welcome to the dark side

[Tina]

  I have a contract with my hiring company and I dont have a union due debt to get keep my job..

[alphadude]

It is more than likely an "at will" agreement. These really protect the company more than the workers but thats ok. The way to tell the advantage Tina is "what is the full value of the contract you have with your employer- dollar wise?"  If you know this, you have a pretty good contract, it will be stated as part of the contractual conditions. NTE value.

[Tina]

 "at will contract."

Yea I wil show up AT the project and the company WILL pay me...
humm ...
no dues here 

[alphadude]

"at will" means you can be terminated for no reason as the employer sees fit. AT THE WILL of the employer.

[Tina]

 
Ok lets see dosnt that cositute a companies reputation... If I heard that company a was letting employees go when there was no just cause or if I witnessed a company acting in that maner ... wouldnt that tell me and other techs that "that company" wasnt the place to work for... I realize some companies has a numbers game to play but if I was treated what I would consider unfair I would post it to see others opions on the subject and guess what that means bad publicity for that particlular company ... and after while they would be hard pressed to find good employees to treat unfairly ... that would do better then anything a union could impose at my expense.... I dont know of anything that would require a union to help except pay I might not have received that I was due... and the way it stands now I handle that with HR depts ...  at  no cost to me  like  union dues...

[SloGlo]

"at will" means you can be terminated for no reason as the employer sees fit. AT THE WILL of the employer.

amen brudder alphadude.  see also, employed at will by the employer.  this means that if you are offered suitable employment and refuse it, the company is well within it's legal rights to make things difficult for you.  this would be future employment, site of said future employment, future wages, and current unemployment qualification.  granted, the employee also has a right to ask for employment, but there is no legal ramification if the employer does not tender an offer.  right to work is not a guarantee to work.   lotsa folks will tell ya it is a guarantee not to loaf. 
 
btw alphadude, this is the absolute last thread that i ebber thaught i wood agree with ya sew much.  'n i got rid of my ocaw tshirt (frum oconee organizing ina 70s) only about 2 years ago when it finally completely fell apart.  of course, that was after i got it back from my kids.  they all thought it was a great t two wear 'cause absolutely nobuddy around here had one like it.

[jjordan]

but the beauty is im non union so its not propaganda if I dont belong to the party.. Im management

how did you come to the conclusion that unions are not part of the safety culture?  Unions partner with safety and are contractually bound to do so.  (safety culture is beyond "protect the core" mentality)

Sorry alphadude, I DID not say that Unions were unsafe, nor do they have a safety culture.  Safety is EVERYONES responsibility, and if it has to be contractual..... then it must not be a mind set.  Anyway, nope, never worked Union, was a part of the Debacle in '90 and '91.  You don't even know me, and I am a RAT?  Please explain why you call us RATS.  Is it because we share the opposite opinions of you?  So, all people against Unions are RATS?  Like I said earlier, you do spread propaganda, and you do share the same mentality as the Mafia bosses.

Let me help with this one RAT= Rent A Tech, RATS, plural, more than one! Nothing derogatory intended here. I happen to agree with alphadude, and I too can't vote here. The whole reasons unions came into being was workplace safety! I too was also a part of the debacle in 91. The IBEW didn't drop us, the freelancing organizers screwed things up royaly. They overstepped their authority, and we blindly followed, because we wanted and needed a union. You still need a union, and I can assure you that this time it won't be miss handled. Tina, your union helped you get to the place you are today, wether you want to admit it or not. The NRC set regulations to protect the public and workers, doesn't have anything to do with union or non union. It's law and we all have to abide by it. In a house situation, it's very different than what is being proposed here. Yes the company picks the health care provider, usually low bid is why. The union will negotiate how much or what kind of coverage is accetable. Traing can be provided by the union, if it is deemed beneficial. alphadude is correct again,, INPO is the main reason we all (house) have "INPO Acredited" cycle training. Dave Warren, interesting stats. Would you know where to pull up some similar stats on the educational rankings of the states. I'll bet the southern states are low here also!
JJ

[SloGlo]

Ok lets see dosnt that cositute a companies reputation...

yeah, 'n iffen i herd "i'll never work fer them agin" once, i herd it a thousand times.  but the company is still in biz.  very, very few companies are not in the biz because they coodent git techs.  iffen they can't hire direct, they'll hire a subcontractor who will hire you.  so there you are.  doncha feel good now.  butcha still buying yer own insurance or taking what is given ya, 'n yer still funding alla yer retirement or taking what is given ya, 'n yer still funding yer life ona rode or taking what is given ya.  still having fun?  good.

[azkidd]

Hey,
I didn't mean to offend no one.  But, please, don't tell me that the SAFETY CULTURE that we ALL have in our line of work...is here because of the Union.  I didn't mean to insinuate that the Union isn't safe.  I was at Pilgrim, escorting a HEPA unit from outside the PA, with a pipefitter.  He decided he was going to his locker to remove his jacket, before he crossed the RCA boundary.  I told him I would just place the HEPA unit across the line for him, and my job was done.  He fanatically tried to tell me that "this is our equipment, you don't have a right to touch my equipment".  I came back and told him that it is "Radioactive Material", which makes it MY material, and I will do what is best for the situation.  Of course his bully, mafia like tactics didn't fare well with me.  At Braidwood, working generators, the operators came to drain the bowl.  I briefed them on the conditions of the platform.  They asked who performed the survey.  I said I did, just 30 minutes ago.  They replied that they need a survey from a house tech.  Of course my HOUSE supervisor got involved, and ...well, they drained the bowl.  My point is, you are trying to use 1930 tactics, in a 2007 world.  I get paid what the Union gets paid, I get a bigger bonus.  Don't feed all these false acusations on pay, better work conditions, equal pay.  My insurance plan is the same as the Union plan, same doctor, same price, same everything.  When I traveled for shared resources, our mileage, per diem was the same.  If I get fired from my job, it is due to much more than a union can protect me from.  If anything, these roadies will be making what WE make during an outage, which would probably be a lot less than what they are making now.  Ask Tina, she sounds like she has lived it.....Both sides alphadude!!  The best a union would do for you is benefits, and that is it.  But, it will also endanger your pay and diem.  Remember, business is give and take.

I won't bother with this thread any more after this, obviously I am lowering myself by responding.  

[SloGlo]

Of course his bully, mafia like tactics didn't fare well with me.

I get paid what the Union gets paid, I get a bigger bonus.

watt tactics did he use... give ya a cupla taps ina backa da haid?

yer a housemouse 'n git paid bigger bonuses than the union?  i'd like to see that.  maybe one of the google freaks can post the union total rate (inclusive of all compensations) 'n you kin post alla yers.  cause unless ya gots a professional position with a signed contract in place, i am looking sumwatt askance at yer claim.

[azkidd]

Well, I guess I have to answer SloGlos question.  I am such an idiot.....but yes, my Teamshare is worth MORE than a Union Housemouse.  The Union negotiated a 3.5% raise every year.  The Utility says fine, we will give that if you take a 3.5% Teamshare....Tops.  The Union says yes.  Meantime, I get nothing less than a 3% raise, and an opportunity for a 7% Teamshare.  If the Teamshare is only worth 40% of our Max, I still get MORE.  Meanwhile, my MERIT raise is in the hands of that mean, foul, management....and I still get the same 3% raise the Union operator gets.  SloGlo, JJ, alphadude, when you let a NEGOTIATOR in to your MONEY, you get what HE/SHE negotiates...maybe more, maybe less, nothing for certain.  Obviously nothing you expected.  However the dues do not fluctuate with the money you will always lose.  Your benefits are in the same boat....no guarantee, no matter what you think.  Yes, I was once a supporter of the Union....until I was told that once I sign a card, my wage, benefits, bonuses...are all in their hands, no guarantee!!!!!!  That is when I said....NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Your lifestyle, your work ethic, what is important to you is in your OWN hands, and no one elses.  Again, this is 2007, not 1930.    Later

[jjordan]

Weingarten Rights.   The following information is a quote from the IBEW web site:
"In 1975, in NLRB v. J. Weingarten, Inc, the U.S. Supreme Court defined the rights of employees in the presence of union representatives during investigatory interviews. Since that case involved a clerk being investigated by the Weingarten Company, these rights have become known as Weingarten rights.  In 2000, the NLRB extended those rights to non-union workplaces.
However, in 2004, in IBM Corp. and Kenneth Schult, the National Labor Relations Board (Board) reversed themselves and decided by a 3-2 vote that non-unionized employees are not legally entitled to have a coworker present during an investigatory interview that the employee reasonably believes might result in discipline."
What is an "INVESTIGATORY INTERVIEW"?  Again, quoting from the IBEW Web Site:    "Employees have Weingarten rights only during investigatory interviews. An investigatory interview occurs when a supervisor questions an employee to obtain information that could be used as a basis for discipline or asks an employee to defend his or her conduct. If an employee has a reasonable belief that discipline or other adverse consequences may result from what he or she says, the employee has a right to request union representation."

OK You keep asking for 1 just 1. Here one is! I've posted lots, but ya'll got blinders on, or you're all 13 years old and I can't tell you anything! azkidd, last i checked when i was a union construction worker at a Union nuke, being covered by both union hose techs and non union contractors. I took direction from the techs (both kinds), and did the work, you just watched! HP will watch work for money! Oh and the union house techs out earned the Bartlett techs by well over $10.00 per hour, now mind you this is old money, not your grossly inflated dollar of today, This was 25 years ago. But I'm hose now,non union for now, and I still outearn you road techs by over $10.00 per hour, and I shouldn't. I have way better bennies, and I shouldn't. You all deserve as much or more than I get, it's harder for you, you give up part of your life to support our outages. You should be rewarded, not punished. Don't worry about our per diem, and travel. We get the federal max. What are you getting now? Oh you were sick a couple of days, too bad, I hate it for you! We'll take up some money for you, cause the company won't. They'll steal your diem. Do you think they give it back to the utilities? Hardheaded teenagers! Whew!
JJ

[azkidd]

You might WATCH work JJ, but I do what is necessary to reduce exposure, AFTER my HP duties are COMPLETE!!  Union, non Union, I will help pull a recirc pump, I will help transport CRD's to the rebuild room, whatever.  Again, your job is what you make of it.  Of course they deserve better than you.....you just WATCH!!

[Tina]

  this is unreal... you act like roadies have no security or benefits because we are non union....I have a 401K plan matched by the company that hired me ... I have an insurance plan that Id put up next to anyone else... I get a good hourly wage w/ overtime... vacation and sick days too ... and should I choose not to take the vacation/ sick day package I get the money per hour on my wage so I dont do without .... all this and Im not union and dont pay union dues ...  I get travel in and out on a project and per diem ... there is not one thing here that a union will get me that I dont already have as well as their union dues  my company makes sure my quals are up to date and I have hazwhoper and 8hr refreshers for safety concerns .... even if I join a union I still am not "garenteed" work ...unions lay off just like companies do ... so being in a union is no more a work gartentee then not being in one ... if you can show me why I should pay a union dues and what they would get me that I havent gotten for myself I'm listening 

[Nuclear NASCAR]

Ya'll have been doing pretty well at keeping it respectful and thus also keeping this from going to the poly-sci section.  I'd just ask the we ALL try to keep it that way so that everyone can contribute to and benefit from the discussion.

Thanks in advance,
Tom

[M1Ark]

"at will" means you can be terminated for no reason as the employer sees fit. AT THE WILL of the employer.

You can also quit w/ no notice.

[thenukeman]

Oh Oh, Union just dropped below 40 percent on the poll. Amost 2 to 1 against.!!

[alphadude]

slo go i know you know my cuz  larry addis

[Walt Harris]

(wonder why 30 techs quit in one month at Oconee in 1977?) harsh non-union southern white man politics-

I think it had a lot to do with something getting in their eyes    ........ called per-diem!!! I don't think those guys are union today are they??? Couldn't get them out of there with a stick of dynomite!

I think it was this time period I knew I wanted to be in management. If I had to swallow at least there was some honey with it-

If guess if you're a swallower, you have to do, what you have to do!

Oh Walt I didnt know you were a "fellow traveler!"  nice cover....

No cover needed! That's my real name, not a user name. Where I live and where I'm from is accessible info, not hiding.

(benefits from the union wage scale but contributes nothing to his fellow workers)  Its all about me!

Not really, it's about my family, then it's about me! I have on many occasions, and would gladly today help anyone in this crazy biz with anything I could, be it personal or work related. Like I've stated before, one thing I learned (sometimes the hard way) in the RAT business is that you don't put your family's financial security in the hands of fellow RATS, AS A GROUP, or any other organizations. The nail in the coffin / slap in the face that finally woke me up was 1990! I'll never allow that to happen again (to me).

didnt know I was from Oconee did ya!

Think I've seen or read it before, but it doesn't matter, what's your point....??

Walt
(not-on-the-fence)