Best Path...

[nukenerd89]

I am nearing my ship date (April 21, 2008), and I am thinking of my long term goals.  Some may argue that I shouldn't even think about that stuff until I'm in the fleet, but I would disagree.  Anyway, I hope to one day hold a bachelor's degree in nuclear/mechanical engineering and then a MBA (eventually).  I'm quite an ambitious young man, maybe too much, I don't know, but I don't want to work in a power plant or be a technician my whole life.  I would like to take advantage of the gifts God has given me in leadership and creative thinking.  Using my knowledge of "how things work" to successfully run a company is a dream of mine.  I 100% understand the "needs of the Navy" mentality, and I am prepared to submit to it.  However, who can offer advice as to what path I should take from here on out in order for me to achieve my goals?  Meaning, should I attempt to become an officer or SPU, be a lifer, what should I do once I get out, etc?  Also, I'm married, so if that changes anything, let me know.  Sorry if I've rambled or made grammatical errors, as I typed this pretty quickly.

Thank you,

Future Nuke (I hope!)

[lagrange]

I can speak from a position of slight bitterness at this point, but I am experienced, and I will say this:

Keep your nose clean.  When guys around you are doing something you know to be wrong, don't follow them.  You don't necessarily have to be a vigilante; just keep yourself out of the "bad boy" group.

Frankly, the Navy is easy.  It is not hard to advance.  It is not hard to be an officer, Chief, or anything else you set your mind to being.  Setting long term goals for yourself is fine, but along the way plenty of other people are going to set short term goals for you, and those have to be your priorities at that time.  When you are free and clear of quals and schools, worry about your personal educational goals.

Good luck.

[Samabby]

If you are "all that, IMO, you would be wasting time going the enlisted route. Get in a Navy officer program and go directly to college. 

[Loffy Muffin]

With all of your natural gifts, its impossible to believe you are going enlisted navy.  Your gifts are going to be put to use cleaning, scrubbing, painting, washing dishes, loading stores, sweeping.  That will be interesting stuff.  The rest of the time you will be standing boring watches, performing maintenance, going to training, taking tests, studying technology that is 30 yrs  dated at least.  (probably more like 50 Yrs).
Hardly befitting you, IMO.
I would send your transcripts to MIT.  They will offer you a full ride plus a monthly stipen to cover expenses.  They usually keep slots open for special cases for the upcoming year.  Since classes are only 3-4 hours per day (max) and you not have to study, you can provide tutor services to other students at 25/hr.  Havard, BU, BC are all a short distant away.

When you graduate early with your EE from MIT, I'm sure Harvard will wave the 2 years mandatory experience requirement and place you in their MBA program with a full ride.  They do that for about 5% of the class if they are gifted.  And we know that you are truely gifted.

So, in 5 years, you will have a EE from MIT and an MBA from Harvard and will be able to start at 250K or more plus bonus.  Bonuses can be millions for top performers, which you are. 

Seriously, dude;  you are going into enlisted navy.  You are waving all your rights and will become the property of the US government to use at their pleasure.  Typically, that is the last option that is used when there are no other reasonable options...

Nukenerd meet rude awakening.

PS...You might want to keep all your special skills a secret from your drill instructor.  Let the poor sap figure it out for himself.

[Fermi2]

What special gifts? All I saw was a generic Maple Syrup post by this guy. What exactly has he led AND isn't this a rehash of a previous post of another person who also claims to have special gifts?

Mike

[mlslstephens]

With all of your natural gifts, its impossible to believe you are going enlisted navy.  Your gifts are going to be put to use cleaning, scrubbing, painting, washing dishes, loading stores, sweeping. 

What is your point?

Seriously, dude;  you are going into enlisted navy.   Typically, that is the last option that is used when there are no other reasonable options...

Once again, I must disagree.  To say that someone who enlists in the Military has no other option is not only offensive, but just not true. 

You paint the bleakest of pictures for any enlisted man and make it seem like the officer has a golden ticket to success.  Having spent time on both roads, I've seen just the opposite in many cases.  I have plenty of stories of the JO from the Academy get out, wearing his big fat ring, only to find himself in the real world with no skills because he didn't apply himself as a JO.  Also, I've watched many enlisted personnel leave the Navy, many of whom post on this site regularly, get the most of their Navy career, and then move on to the commercial nuclear world or other business ventures and they've been quite successful.    To borrow another "not so famous" line from A Few Good Men...you don't need to wear a badge to have honor.

What special gifts?

Agree, is there something we are missing here??

[Loffy Muffin]

I'm just trying to help the guy out.  An enlisted sub nuke will spend hours per day cleaning, painting, etc for the whole 6 years or until they get E-7.  that is a fact. 

Enlisting in the Navy will require this person to wave most of his rights.  rights to counsel, rights to trial, etc.  He needs to understand the gravity of his decision.  There is this thing called "non judicial punishment' in which the command can make unfounded or exaggerated charges at their will.  No proof required.  Punishment can be half pay, reduction in rate, restriction to the ship for a month or more, extra duty...or more.  I think bread and water is still on the books.  With no evidence or due process (well, the process is the CO makes does what he wants).  Without representation.  yeah, you can request a court martial, and take a huge risk. 

does the above happen?  Yeah, I seen it all the time.  all the time being 10-15 times over say 6 years.  I've seen an additional 30 plus mass cases that they deserved it over 6 years. This is on a sub, not a carrier.  Is it a bleak picture?  I don't know, you tell me.

Is spending weekends cleaning 14hrs/day after coming in from a 3 month patrol cleaning bleak?  I don't know, you tell me. 

Can a command disqualify a person for getting a 3.5/4.0 on test, restrict them to the boat, take them to mass, fine them, and assign extra duties?  yep, without blinking an eye.  The engineering officer can, and will, disqualify a person based a arbitrary standards as they seem fit.  Is that a bleak picture?  well, its not freaking tea with the queen.

Beats getting shot at in a Humvee, if you want to put the bar low I guess.

The guy is total naive about what he is getting into.  six years can be a long time sweet pea.  He needs to think through what he is doing and not have a bunch of jokers blow smoke up his skirt.

[DSO]

I am nearing my ship date (April 21, 2008), and I am thinking of my long term goals.  Some may argue that I shouldn't even think about that stuff until I'm in the fleet, but I would disagree.  Anyway, I hope to one day hold a bachelor's degree in nuclear/mechanical engineering and then a MBA (eventually).  I'm quite an ambitious young man, maybe too much, I don't know, but I don't want to work in a power plant or be a technician my whole life.  I would like to take advantage of the gifts God has given me in leadership and creative thinking.  Using my knowledge of "how things work" to successfully run a company is a dream of mine.  I 100% understand the "needs of the Navy" mentality, and I am prepared to submit to it.  However, who can offer advice as to what path I should take from here on out in order for me to achieve my goals?  Meaning, should I attempt to become an officer or SPU, be a lifer, what should I do once I get out, etc?  Also, I'm married, so if that changes anything, let me know.  Sorry if I've rambled or made grammatical errors, as I typed this pretty quickly.

Thank you,

Future Nuke (I hope!)

With all your gifts of intelligence and talent---MIT or Harvard might not be challenging enough for you ---just a bunch of academically gifted dweebs there--you need to be knocking on the door of Bill Gates or Donald Trump immediately and push to be the head of one of the Company Board of Directors---Nuclear Power would probably bore a prodigal such as yourself

[Fermi2]

Oddly none of that stuff happens if you live by the rules, study hard, work hard and qualify on time, except the cleaning of course. I never understood why nukes didn't at least do their best at cleaning, until I went to some of the guys places who bitched loudest about cleaning the boat. Their homes were pigstys.

For the most part the Navy is what you make it. Except in one case I never saw a person get into trouble when they didn't in part deserve it. You don't waive your right to counsel, you are more than welcome to get JAG involved and usually they do a good job, in fact the guys who got into trouble when they shouldn't have did ask for a JAG and the JAG got them off. A bit of advice, if you have the choice between a JAG and the civilian Attorney get a JAG, I went to two hearings and one court martial and the JAGs whipped the civilian attorneys, there are some excellent legal people in the Navy. You can write your congressman and yes you will get action, I am proof of that.

You'll also get the basics for an industry that if you keep learning you can have a wonderful career both inside and outside the Navy.

Trust me, I don't recruit people into the Nav, but I know for a fact it's not the way Loffy Muffin portrays it as I have seen every situation he described and can refute every one of them. He's giving patent untruths and displaying them as facts. GRANTED there are a lot of TERRIBLE "leaders" in the Navy but every now an then you'll find a diamond in the rough and for the most part I believe Navy leadership does the best it can with the people it has and ends up coming out ok. At times you get some young kids, who haven't matured yet who get promoted due to test taking skills but it's not the norm. You find more of that in most civilian industries. Having worked in both arenas I can say that for a fact. The proof the Navy has a few good leaders is here, I've seen some guys here who would "get" it regardless of where they worked. NaVLI4, ChiefRob (Not Navy anymore) War Eagle, subshooter, all good people. I've seen recruiters come here and actually TELL young men and women the TRUTH and help them when their contracts get screwed up.

All in all, join, be enlisted or be an officer, if you join as enlisted and want to be an officer work hard towards that end, always be prepared and when you get the opportunity jump at it as it's been my experience in life opportunities only come up once, at least the ones that are worth it.

Just please don't try to give me that Gifts BS. I'll bet a years salary you're no more gifted than the average kid who comes here and as for leadership, don't come here with that BS unless you can provide proof you've actually led and accomplished something. You're posting on a board that is full of leaders so you aren't fooling them in the least. You want a straight answer from here provide proof of "gift" and "leadership" and you'll get plenty of straight answers. Babble about yourself and you'll end up invoking the Nuclear Land Shark that resides deep inside all QUALIFIED Nukes.

In the end, no matter what you choose, work hard, be a bit humble, stay out of trouble and learn more than "my job" and you'll end up ok.

Mike

[Loffy Muffin]

yep, the guy who got disqual, sent to mass, fined, and put on dink hours for getting a 3.5/4.0 had it coming.  Probably cracked smart to the Engineering officer (in fact, that is why he did get slammed.)  

the other 45 guys that got sent to mass over a 4 year period, even though they scored in the top 5% of all recruits and survived a +50% washout rate, were dirt bags and had it coming.  Study statistics much?  

Yeah, you can get the JAG involved, the pain required for a full court martial is higher then just taking a month restriction and a fine.  And there is no record after discharge.  CourtMartial?  permanent record, pal.  You would have to be galactically stupid to take that chance. civilian/military courts are a roll of the dice at best.

Out of all the mass cases we had on my boat, not one non-nuke ever got sent to mass for work related issues.  zero.  guess if you over cook the eggs, no big deal.  Nukes?  10 or more.  Yeah, some of the nukes were walking head cases, but it stands: zero non nuke masses, over 10 nuke masses.  Fact.

Going into the navy you lose control over your life.  That is a fact.  And working hard, being smart, qualifying on time or early, working to enbetter ones self guarantees you nothing.  That is a fact.  Command can and will do what they see fit and they have almost unlimited powers.  Fact.  This will come to a shock to people and is illogical.  Doesn't make it not true.

Nukenerd as no concept of what is waiting for him.  If he is fine with all of the above and can deal with it, then he at least has been warned.  I met some good people and some great times in the Navy.  I've made some life long friends.  I'm not turning this into some whine feast, but to tell people good things happen to good people and don't worry about a thing is blatantly false.

[DSO]

yep, the guy who got disqual, sent to mass, fined, and put on dink hours for getting a 3.5/4.0 had it coming.  Probably cracked smart to the Engineering officer (in fact, that is why he did get slammed.)  

the other 45 guys that got sent to mass over a 4 year period, even though they scored in the top 5% of all recruits and survived a +50% washout rate, were dirt bags and had it coming.  Study statistics much?  

Yeah, you can get the JAG involved, the pain required for a full court martial is higher then just taking a month restriction and a fine.  And there is no record after discharge.  CourtMartial?  permanent record, pal.  You would have to be galactically stupid to take that chance. civilian/military courts are a roll of the dice at best.

Out of all the mass cases we had on my boat, not one non-nuke ever got sent to mass for work related issues.  zero.  guess if you over cook the eggs, no big deal.  Nukes?  10 or more.  Yeah, some of the nukes were walking head cases, but it stands: zero non nuke masses, over 10 nuke masses.  Fact.

Going into the navy you lose control over your life.  That is a fact.  And working hard, being smart, qualifying on time or early, working to enbetter ones self guarantees you nothing.  That is a fact.  Command can and will do what they see fit and they have almost unlimited powers.  Fact.  This will come to a shock to people and is illogical.  Doesn't make it not true.

Nukenerd as no concept of what is waiting for him.  If he is fine with all of the above and can deal with it, then he at least has been warned.  I met some good people and some great times in the Navy.  I've made some life long friends.  I'm not turning this into some whine feast, but to tell people good things happen to good people and don't worry about a thing is blatantly false.

Lolly Muffin--I was in for 20 years and I don't doubt the accuracy of what you have portrayed navy life as one bit.  What can you expect though from an organization that has "unlimited" control over all and any rights that you would have as a civilian---and just throws them out the door when they feel like it.  I saw a huge amount of butt-kissing and politics in the Navy--and it hasn't even come close in the three years that I have worked at a private company. Yep =--being smart and working hard won't make up for the brown-nosing you will need to display to advance. It kind of makes you sick that supposedly macho military men act like women in an office. I am glad I finished up--because I know now just how bad things can get------but I wouldn't do it again. By the way--I am excelling at my present job due to work ethic ---not politics.

[mlslstephens]

the other 45 guys that got sent to mass over a 4 year period, even though they scored in the top 5% of all recruits and survived a +50% washout rate, were dirt bags and had it coming.  Study statistics much?  

Yeah, you can get the JAG involved, the pain required for a full court martial is higher then just taking a month restriction and a fine.  And there is no record after discharge.  CourtMartial?  permanent record, pal.  You would have to be galactically stupid to take that chance. civilian/military courts are a roll of the dice at best.

Out of all the mass cases we had on my boat, not one non-nuke ever got sent to mass for work related issues.  zero.  guess if you over cook the eggs, no big deal.  Nukes?  10 or more.  Yeah, some of the nukes were walking head cases, but it stands: zero non nuke masses, over 10 nuke masses.  Fact.

I've highlighted a few of your comments here.  You keep saying the word "fact" after many of your statements but each statement talks about sending people to mass.  The first "mass" you typed made me think you mistyped.  However, after several other instances, makes me believe that you really don't have your facts straight.   

First, the UCMJ is very clear regarding "Captains Mast".  On my submarines, many nukes went to mass, and non nukes went as well...mass was held in the Wardroom and the protestants met in the Crew's Mess. 

I'm giving you the Courts-Martial mistake for free.

Going into the navy you lose control over your life.  That is a fact.  And working hard, being smart, qualifying on time or early, working to enbetter ones self guarantees you nothing.  That is a fact.  Command can and will do what they see fit and they have almost unlimited powers.  Fact.  This will come to a shock to people and is illogical.  Doesn't make it not true.

Was this your story?  Kind of sounds like whining...

 I'm not turning this into some whine feast,

Yes you are.

[Fermi2]

BS, While I do agree you lose some control of your life when in the Navy it's not all that much.

Yes, I actually had 3 years of statistics in college. Again keep your nose clean and you won't get into trouble. When I was in High School I was voted most likely to end up in Prison. I raised a lot of hell as a civilian and when I did join the Navy people in my town openly laughed. Most said Oh Mikey has plenty of smarts but the minute he realizes they have rules... I in fact did great. Did excellent in Nuke School and made E5 WITHOUT STAR and E6 in 4 years. Only people I ever saw in trouble were dirt bags.

Oddly of the guys who elected Court Martial and the JAG , One is now a commander, 2 are Master Chiefs, 2 Got out with HONORABLE Discharges and the other went mental later on. Doesn't seem like asking for a Court Martial hurt one bit. I just called my wife' Uncle, he at one time was a Lt CDR in JAG and he said ALWAYS ask for a Court Martial because it cannot ever hurt you. In fact he said his pet peeve when he was a JAG was Nukes did not ask for it enough and everytime they did they either won or the command just dismissed the charges. These are in cases that fall on the line of would other divisions consider these as Mast Offenses.

My best guess is the reasons you see the smaller numbers in other divsions are 1: Less Rules 2: Division Officers who didn't like the bother of sending stuff up.

As for statistics, I can take ANY group of individuals that have a high human performance error rate, work with them for a week and if they don't make any errors claim I improved them without doing a damn thing.

You are painting a patently false view of the USN particularly the Nuke part of it and in my opinion are either outright lying or skewing the real facts to support your view.

Here, we have more than an active division of Nukes. AND all would be in the top 5% and meet the criteria you described. Lets ask, did any of you go to Mast for anything? I had 2 outright screwups in the Navy and in both cases after the Div Officer talked to me there was nothing after that. For the record I finished first in my nuke school class, I qualified in around 4 weeks at prototype, I was first in my ELT Class, I was a SPU, I made E5 and E6 on my first exams. I went in with two waivers and I had two rather spectacular screwups when in. I also had my second to my last command investigated by Congress.  I easily meet your criteria. Anyone who knows me, and there are a few here can tell you I got where I am due to competence and honesty and not brown nosing. Same in the Navy.

So, who else here would meet the criteria Loffy Muffin set. Anyone else care to debunk his negative counterfactuals and mistatements?

Mike

[RDTroja]

I caught the 'mass/mast' errors and I wasn't even in the Navy. Says something for credibility to me.

[mlslstephens]

BS, While I do agree you lose some control of your life when in the Navy it's not all that much.
So, who else here would meet the criteria Loffy Muffin set. Anyone else care to debunk his negative counterfactuals and mistatements?

Mike

Mike, now that you mention it, sure why not.  After 22 years I have a few screw ups as well.  However, one was huge and worthy of Captains Mast.  I won't go into the details, but both my Chief and I went to Mast.  The Chief was first and when the CO asked the Chief if he had any other statements he would like to make, my Chief told the CO that "Petty Officer xxxxx, that is me, was only following my orders" and my Chief then asked the CO to have mercy on me in order to save a good nuke who made a mistake.  

Still to this day, I can hear my Chief's words and also those words my CO said to me when I was staring down across the green table.  He told me that I came very close to losing my opportunity for a commission in the Navy.

I violated the UCMJ. Fact. I was given Mercy. Fact.

[Loffy Muffin]

Mast, right.  I've been out a while.  I think frankie goes to hollywood was a top band when I got out (Relax!).  And, I haven't worked with any rust bucket swabbies since I got out (so no sea stories thank god), but do keep in contact with a couple of my shipmates.  I have a positive opinion to the navy compared to them by the way.  check out the web site..Uss drum.  someone has put out a good effort. good picts..

So, you could say my opinions are from a person who had a good experience.  Imagine the negative experience people.

Just trying to help a person out.  Get a "non recruiters" take.  This navy luv feast needs to be balanced.  "work hard and good things will happen to you?"  you forgot to tell them:  "read the king james, say your prayers, and write mamma".  good one.  and Santa rewards all the good girls and boys.

Most people, 18 YO, can not imagine the life in the navy (and nukenerd seems a little niave IMO).  It is totally different then anything they have experienced and having total loss of control over, well, everything except your sep date (and training) is very hard to imagine.  It was and can be frustrating.   No story here.    I have seen, and been a part of, working 5 days straight, no sleep, drills 7/24 because the CO wants to "see what the crew can do"  Fact.  No big deal.  I had no control, so I did it.  Can't quit.  Were are going to go, you are in the middle of the ocean.    Just wanted a balanced opinion to the lad before he signs away 6 years.

[mlslstephens]

I am nearing my ship date (April 21, 2008), and I am thinking of my long term goals. 

However, who can offer advice as to what path I should take from here on out in order for me to achieve my goals?  Meaning, should I attempt to become an officer or SPU, be a lifer, what should I do once I get out, etc?  Also, I'm married, so if that changes anything, let me know. 

Marssim is right...back on topic.  It sounds like you have already made your choice if you have a ship out date of April 21.  Does that mean that you report to boot camp on that day?  If so, then I recommend going enlisted  

Does that mean that you are going to OCS on that day?  If so, then I recommend going officer  

As for the lifer choice...way to early for you to make that decision.  I was going to get out after six.  22.....still going.

Okay, all joking aside.

I'm not a Navy recruiter, but if you signed up for the Navy then I don't think you've made a mistake.  If you truly have skills, then you will stand out and doors will open up for you.  Good luck.

[Loffy Muffin]

this is about the lad trying to make a decision on completely turning over his life to the "Needs Of the Navy". Not about me, or anyone else.  I'm just passing on my experiences.  An experience that is not represented much here in the navy love feast.  YMMV.


You are painting a patently false view of the USN particularly the Nuke part of it and in my opinion are either outright lying or skewing the real facts to support your view.

guess I was on LSD 81-87.  I imagined the whole thing.  BroadZ, can you predict the future too?  Got a 900 number?  I'm being nice here about my experiences.  I don't want to completely scare the guy off.  Actually, I'm making the it sound better then it was.  You think this is bad? LMAO   Whimps.  I guess the nuke navy in 90's got dumbed down.  The retention rate was in the pits while I was in and was port/starboard more often then not.  They must have changed it to make it "nice" to get people to stay in.  The only ones that stayed in the navy in the 80's were the dirt bags.  anyone that had a lick of sense got out.  (exceptions, yes).  Yeah, I got written up.  The JAG told me to go to mass and take my chances....errr mast.  

Some had it allot worse.  I would rate my experience about average or typical.  

Getting Mercy at Mass? Exactly.  Hope.  Pray.  Not something I want to put myself through. I don't like to leave things to the whim of a swabbie.

[Marlin]

Its time to agree to disagree, and let some of this go. This is border line even for PolySci and this is a public thread intended to help.


Forum rule:

4. Please learn to be respectful, tolerate and support each other. NukeWorker.com�s goal is to help others, not see how many people we can annoy. Do not initiate arguments or tension. This will only cause the triggering of other members and make this site less professional.

[Fermi2]

Its time to agree to disagree, and let some of this go. This is border line even for PolySci and this is a public thread intended to help.


Forum rule:

4. Please learn to be respectful, tolerate and support each other. NukeWorker.com�s goal is to help others, not see how many people we can annoy. Do not initiate arguments or tension. This will only cause the triggering of other members and make this site less professional.

I'll actually subscribe to and use Marlin rule #2.

Rule one sounds VERY familiar, I believe it was used in Lonesome Dove.

Mike

[RDTroja]

he's already married, he probably knows something about losing control in his life by now, at this point it's just a question of degree,...  

VERY good point.

[Rad Sponge]

I think the original poster should enlist and fill the void of excellence left by me a few years ago.

[Rad Sponge]

I figured with all the other ustafish nukes slinging pages of bullpoop, back and fro, I just had to chime in with something succinct.

[Rad Sponge]

I'd give you Karma, Jason, but I lost the ability when some one took away my neutron moderation powers.

[PWHoppe]

I'd give you Karma, Jason, but I lost the ability when some one took away my neutron moderation powers.

Simply become a Gold Member and TA! DA!, you have your Karma powers back