Is it good to stand out and speak up?

[thesparo]

I have been wondering this. When out on tour (or at port for that matter) is it batter to speak up and be heard, or sit back and do your job? (pertaining to a suggestion and or problem)
Is it better to notify COC if you notice something wrong, meaning, if one sees another acting out and not performing their duty, and you could possibly be punished as well if found out, should you notify them? Or will you be known as a rat?
Is it all dependent on your crew?

[JustinHEMI05]

I'll make the popcorn!

Justin

[retired nuke]

I have been wondering this. When out on tour (or at port for that matter) is it batter to speak up and be heard, or sit back and do your job? (pertaining to a suggestion and or problem)
Is it better to notify COC if you notice something wrong, meaning, if one sees another acting out and not performing their duty, and you could possibly be punished as well if found out, should you notify them? Or will you be known as a rat?
Is it all dependent on your crew?

Ideally, talk directly to the individual, and try to improve the performance. Generally, peer opinion will have a better result than COC involvement. If direct conversation doesn't work, try a more senior enlisted / work it up to the chief. CPOs and LPOs have much experience, and ability in handling this type of problem. If it needs to go up the command chain, they will know when.
Lead by example, express disappointment in bad behavior.
Good luck, and thanks for your service - 

[withroaj]

Are you an ELT?  If so, don't cover for the guy.  Not for a second. This kind of crap gives ELT's across the fleet a bad name; makes people say "ELT's, no way!" when the Hampton guys can't do a primary.  An RL Div that does its job to the letter works harder than any other division on board (unless M-Div actually does all of their stuff), and gives the ELT's the right to a serious elitist attitude.  You want that more than to be part of a division with a dirt bag reputation.

If you have this question about speaking up you might be new on your boat.  If you are new and this guy is "senior"(since we think we are senior with two years experience in this program), it might be hard to pressure him in any direction on your own.  Especially if the division likes him and doesn't know you.  They might just take a great big dump down your throat.

I guess I don't know what department climate is like where you're at, but I came from a boat where we didn't tolerate people who didn't do their jobs.  I know that in certain places (prototypes - I was a SPU there and the sleaze was unbearable, but the climate made it the norm) the acceptable pattern of behavior is to gaff/blaze/radio/gundeck everything you can with the knowledge that you will be CIVLANT before it hits the fan.  Then you read the message that comes out about a Guam boat that had Cl in a certain fresh water system for the engine room (vague enough?) for six months after an availability at PHNSY, to have it logged OOS for the first time when a guy comes back from LIMDU.

Let the guy know that he sucks.  Peer pressure can be a helpful thing on a boat.  If he sucks enough the rest of the division could be upset about it, and a Shaft Alley counseling session could take place.

If it is culturally acceptable to suck at your job where you're at it puts you in an awkward position.  You could address the issue with the guy and not only will nothing happen, but you will be ostracised.  You could formally address the issue via the CoC and you will be ostracised.  You could sit quietly and say nothing about it until it gets caught, and then you are a part of the problem and you can kiss your job good-bye.  Even if you hate it where you're at I'm sure you know that it's best to finish your commitment and make the transition to civilian life.

[Fermi2]

Maybe a career at McDonalds would be better suited for you.

Mike

[Preciousblue1965]

I guarantee that at some point in your career you will hear(and I have even said it) that jokingly "I can't use my integrity here, I won't have any left for when I get out" or something to that effect.  Well if you never ever use it, how will you know how to use it when you get out and it really matters(i.e. when they can fire you and you don't get ANY paycheck). 

Bottom line is that there is going to be some risk either way.  On one hand you will have a division/LPO/shipmate that might hate you and make your life hell or change, and on the other you will be just as guilty and fry like the rest of them if you don't say anything and it gets noticed by someone much higher in the paygrade levels.  Like most people have said try to resolve it at the lowest level possible.  There might even be a reason that the person is doing what they are doing that is not clear. 

[justatech]

Is it all dependent on your crew?

Everthing is dependant upon the crew - how well your team performs and how well you look out for another when it counts. I agree with House Dad - talk to him first, if you feel uncomfortable with that and have been there long enough to ask someone else on your team for advice - do that. Your coworker may know why he is not performing and he may even decide to have a buddy buddy talk with him.

Another thing to consider - how bad is it? Penny anty stuff that would not impact the reliability of the teams performance or will it jeopardize the team and what are the consequences?

[withroaj]

Oh, no.  I just read what I wrote before and it came out sounding really bitter and negative.  I am truly sorry about that.

Just be posting here again I am making this thread longer than it needs to be, but I feel I made an arse out of myself with my previous statement.

What needs to be said has been said:  Talk to the guy or to any E-5 in the division about the issue.  If it's something serious (or something the command tends to treat very seriously) take it further if it still bothers you.  Just make sure you and your division are covered.  No sense losing money and sitting on restriction for a month and a half.

And most of all, enjoy yourself.

[shehane]

You can but be careful!  There are a couple of rules I learned over the years.  You can speak your mind if you know what you are talking about or you can prove you are right.  They may not like what you say but you can get away with speaking up.  I became a pretty big target at Grand Gulf most because I was not afraid to speak up when we had very little spine in our management.  I was always able to back up what I said but I made several levels above me really upset for bringing focus or attention on HP.  If you fear for your job it is never a good idea to say things to make waves.  Learn the proceedures, human resource manuals and get as much tribal knowledge as possible to back you up and fire away!  Don

[War Eagle]

(prototypes - I was a SPU there and the sleaze was unbearable, but the climate made it the norm) the acceptable pattern of behavior is to gaff/blaze/radio/gundeck everything you can with the knowledge that you will be CIVLANT before it hits the fan. 

That's really depressing. I'm at prototype right now and I don't see a blatant disregard for nuclear standards.  We have our struggles here, but I have a hard time believing that the staff comes to work with the intention of blowing everything off.

On topic:  Do the right thing. Approach the person first if you have a problem. If it isn't resolved, move up the chain of command one link at a time.

[shehane]

I can remember having some guys with that attitude in prototype but it didn't seem to be the norm.  Most people will learn to cut corners when they are comfortable with the situation but not many will completely blow of the important stuff.  Seems to be what I have seen in the Navy and in the civilian industry.

[Preciousblue1965]

I just left Proto about 1.5 years ago.  The problem there is(ascends the soap box) that it seems to be the crews vs everyone else.  ODs care about PMS getting done and little about student training.  SITs care about student training and little about PMS.  Crews don't have enough people to get PMS done, provide enough staff to cover all the O/Is for students, give students checkouts, provide mentors and remedials for struggling students, and have cover the watchbill so staff can stand U/Is for their own quals, not to mention that most people feel that their job doesn't really matter because the students get shoved through anyway.  The crews get pulled in every direction and sometimes the only way to get everything done is to cut a corner here and there.  Are they ever anything that will lead to an incident or get someone killed? NEVER.  Are their students out their that didn't actually do the full tag out procedure in their qual card? I would guess so. 

Bottom line is that when push comes to shove, sometimes you are going to be put in a position that will question your integrity.  If it ultimately will put either the ship or someone in mortal danger, then speak the #$%@ up and say something.  If it is some petty BS that someone made up and never thought out what it would really mean to have to implement it, well that is a choice you will have to make.

I apologize if I irked anyone.  I am still a little bitter about getting the shaft over a hurricane detail in which we were promised an extra day off that NEVER happened(there were only 4 people left that it actually affected when I got out).

[HydroDave63]

I apologize if I irked anyone.  I am still a little bitter about getting the shaft over a hurricane detail in which we were promised an extra day off that NEVER happened(there were only 4 people left that it actually affected when I got out).

Why, that certainly eclipses the entire crew of the Abe Lincoln having their WestPac extended, to a record of 290 days. Maybe the retelling of a 4th hand unverifiable story would amuse them.

[Cycoticpenguin]

I have been wondering this. When out on tour (or at port for that matter) is it batter to speak up and be heard, or sit back and do your job? (pertaining to a suggestion and or problem)
Is it better to notify COC if you notice something wrong, meaning, if one sees another acting out and not performing their duty, and you could possibly be punished as well if found out, should you notify them? Or will you be known as a rat?
Is it all dependent on your crew?

Im not going to spend the time reading everyones replies, so here's my two cents. If its a peer, try to handle it directly. IF you still have repeated issues, bring it up to your lowest khaki, because its a very high probability that your lpo's wont give a crap because they have bigger fish to fry. Let them fix it, its their job. If its a problem with supervisors or other things going wrong outside of your division, then you NEED to bring that up with your LCPO, or senior enlisted section leader.

With someone not performing their duty, I will say this .... and it seems most of the new guys dont understand this yet... "DONT SH!@ WHERE YOU EAT". If you go behind someones back and rat them out(granted it's something trivial, not directly affecting others, and wont cause harm to others)... it will go around, and good luck getting signatures. Theres something you should have learned, or learning called "Watch team backup". this means you should take the opportunity to fix them, by showing them what to do, or telling them who to talk to so they can get their issues fixed.


where are you at right now?? If you are in training still, then this is obviously going to change my answer

-Jordan

[Preciousblue1965]

Why, that certainly eclipses the entire crew of the Abe Lincoln having their WestPac extended, to a record of 290 days. Maybe the retelling of a 4th hand unverifiable story would amuse them.

Quite a few guys on my Crew were from the Lincoln and were telling me about that hose job.  Hydro, I know it was a little trivial and I had all but forgotten it until another crew got shafted on hurricane detail and they actually got the next day off with two crews taking 12 hour shifts instead of the eight.  But in the end it is all good now that I am out.

[Gamecock]

Why, that certainly eclipses the entire crew of the Abe Lincoln having their WestPac extended, to a record of 290 days. Maybe the retelling of a 4th hand unverifiable story would amuse them.

We always can find someone who got screwed worse then ourselves.  However, that doesn't mean that it makes us feel better when we get screwed over.  So, using your thought process, no one would ever have a reason to feel slighted until they've been deployed for 291 days.  Ridiculous!!!

A lot of you old timers have a "It sucked for me, so it should suck for you" mentality.  Thanks for your service, but I'm glad your not in the club anymore.

[HydroDave63]

Thanks for your service, but I'm glad your not in the club anymore.

Thanks for proving the standards have been lowered over the years.

[JustinHEMI05]

I've brought a six pack, pass the popcorn!   

Got any of that left? I ran out of popcorn.

Justin

[PapaBear765]

For those of you who don't know...at P-type within the last couple of months a half dozen nukes lost their NECs and were reduced in rank for signature violations.  The fiasco started with gaffing off a tagout perform.  And it started with someone doing the right thing.  An MM1 blazed a few students' cards for the tagout perform, the next day his LPO questioned the students about it, scratched the signatures, told the MM1 to redo the tagouts, the MM1 said take a hike, so the LPO informed the LCC.  That LPO probably has a few new enemies now, but that's because they don't know the story, not because he told on the now MM2.

To the original post: if you're new (on your first boat), then make sure you understand why something is being done the way it's being done before you go making a big deal out of it to the COC.  "Resolve conflicts at the lowest level possible," was taught at boot camp and it applies for nukes too.  Likewise, don't allow grossly low standards to persist; they could lead to someone getting killed or hurt.

[Preciousblue1965]

For those of you who don't know...at P-type within the last couple of months a half dozen nukes lost their NECs and were reduced in rank for signature violations.  The fiasco started with gaffing off a tagout perform.  And it started with someone doing the right thing.  An MM1 blazed a few students' cards for the tagout perform, the next day his LPO questioned the students about it, scratched the signatures, told the MM1 to redo the tagouts, the MM1 said take a hike, so the LPO informed the LCC.  That LPO probably has a few new enemies now, but that's because they don't know the story, not because he told on the now MM2.

OOFHA!!!! sounds like Protosuck just got a lot worse.  Well it has been about the right amount of time for another fiasco to happen.  Usually takes about a year or year and a half between them.  When i was there, there was the whole gaffing of staff signatures for foward watches.  Bunch of people got busted, few sent to sea, and the typical knee jerk that you could only get so many points in a day and all checkouts had to be monitored by a civie.  Went that way for about 3 months then back to S.O.P

[PapaBear765]

Same thing with this fiasco...  A week or two of "integrity training" with a training stand down that had the rx s/d for a couple days... That very same week the crews are identifying discrepancies and "issues" with PMS, all of which would in their own way require the rx to be s/d, and the COC side-steps, avoids, re-interprets, gets permission, etc in order to keep the rx running.  Doing exactly what they just got done training us not to do.  Sickening.

I never thought that any where would compete with my previous command as worst in the navy, but they're giving it the old college effort.

[Preciousblue1965]

Same thing with this fiasco...  A week or two of "integrity training" with a training stand down that had the rx s/d for a couple days... That very same week the crews are identifying discrepancies and "issues" with PMS, all of which would in their own way require the rx to be s/d, and the COC side-steps, avoids, re-interprets, gets permission, etc in order to keep the rx running.  Doing exactly what they just got done training us not to do.  Sickening.

I never thought that any where would compete with my previous command as worst in the navy, but they're giving it the old college effort.

Typical protosuck operating procedure.  I busted my knee up pretty good and got sent to 7 week....TWICE in a row.  Both times I was up there, the LCPO told us to ensure the students went down to the boat and if they didn't, kick them out of checkout.  So I did exactly that.  So many students refused to go to the boat that I kicked everyone of them out.  After the first 7 weeks, I got called into the MasterChief's office and hammered for not giving enough checkouts during the last class.  He then preceded to read me two negative comments students had about me from the class critique sheet.  After about an hour of him telling me how to give a checkout, he sends me on my way.  I read over the REST of the critique sheet and there are at least 5 positive comments about me from students saying that even though I was tough that because I gave them the checkout they really felt they knew more about the system than if it was someone else.  Of course this MCPO didn't bother to read those to me when he was chewing my Arse off.  Only reason any of this came up is because the previous class failed over 50%off the Offcrew exam and many of them were dink when they went to crew. He basically told me to get sleazy, get students a lot of points, and then make sure they studied what was geared toward the test.

Sorry this was a little off topic

[withroaj]

Let's stay off topic for a minute.  Anyone who has been a proto-pal OR on a boat in the last couple of years knows about the negative direction of the NNPP.  Makes you wonder why someone who has their act together won't take $90k (that's right, Zone A is 90,000 dollars now) just to take a shore duty.  How does it go, One 'oh S***' kills a hundred 'atta boys.'

"And then we would laaaaugh and celebrate our differences."

[Preciousblue1965]

Let's stay off topic for a minute.  Anyone who has been a proto-pal OR on a boat in the last couple of years knows about the negative direction of the NNPP.  Makes you wonder why someone who has their act together won't take $90k (that's right, Zone A is 90,000 dollars now) just to take a shore duty.  How does it go, One 'oh S***' kills a hundred 'atta boys.'

"And then we would laaaaugh and celebrate our differences."

Well a lot of that is because it is almost impossible to go anywhere other than Protosuck.  Furthermore, why would you want to go to a shore duty where your job really doesn't matter anymore.  What I mean by that is, even if a student does not deserve or has the ability to be a nuke, they still get pushed through.  The only thing that matters is quantity, not quality.  I can honestly say that if a student deserved to fail a watch, he did.  If he was broke on his board, I failed him.  Even gave a 2.3 on a board, and got a stern talking to by the Civilian because "anything less than a 2.4 could discourage them, so the lowest you can give is a 2.4"  I basically told the guy that 2.4 is almost up to snuff, and this kid was nowhere even close and he actually deserved much lower than that(MM thought oil flow through bearings was in series vs parrallel).  Why put yourself through 3 years of hell just to watch your product get sent out regardless of its condition.  It would be like working in a car shop that gave you a week to rebuild the engine, not enough people to do it with, gave you 1940s technology for tools, and sold it to your family even if it wasn't ready at the end of the week.

That is why there are so many people passing up the big money and getting out at 6

[PapaBear765]

Well a lot of that is because it is almost impossible to go anywhere other than Protosuck.  Furthermore, why would you want to go to a shore duty where your job really doesn't matter anymore.  What I mean by that is, even if a student does not deserve or has the ability to be a nuke, they still get pushed through.  The only thing that matters is quantity, not quality.  I can honestly say that if a student deserved to fail a watch, he did.  If he was broke on his board, I failed him.  Even gave a 2.3 on a board, and got a stern talking to by the Civilian because "anything less than a 2.4 could discourage them, so the lowest you can give is a 2.4"  I basically told the guy that 2.4 is almost up to snuff, and this kid was nowhere even close and he actually deserved much lower than that(MM thought oil flow through bearings was in series vs parrallel).  Why put yourself through 3 years of hell just to watch your product get sent out regardless of its condition.  It would be like working in a car shop that gave you a week to rebuild the engine, not enough people to do it with, gave you 1940s technology for tools, and sold it to your family even if it wasn't ready at the end of the week.

That is why there are so many people passing up the big money and getting out at 6

I'm frequently amazed at how my opinion of the past changes: little changes with time, it's pretty much the same now as it always has been.  Protosuck is no different now.  There was this sierra hotel india tango for brains student who got her officer package accepted.  My crew was told to get her qualified by a certain date so that she could ship off for her O-training; we told she was not to fail any watch.  I sat her check board...it was bad.  She kept from out right crying three times.  Her ITR said she had broke down and cried in the cubes during checkouts on multiple occasions....she had no right qualifying, and no right being selected to be an officer.

When I was in BIT class we were told to not grade below a 2.4 because the grading criteria stops at 2.4.  It actually reads "<2.4".  So a lot of us interpret that as having free range to determine how much below 2.4 is deserving.  We never abuse it.  We almost always grade a 2.4 when the student is fail-worthy, and only reserve the 2.0's for the embarrassingly bad ones, or the ones who have a crappy attitude.

I don't think it's that hard to give a large quantity of quality checkouts.  I had given about 2200 checkouts by my 6-month point...more than some guys who had been there a couple years.  And none of them were sleazy.  Even when a mechanic comes to me for a 1 point casualty discuss, I don't let him/her leave the cube until s/he's learned something useful and s/he understands it.  It may take 45 minutes for that student to get the 1 point, but they've learned something and they got the signature, and their time wasn't wasted on me trying to show off how much I know.  (Not accusing you of anything, just continuing with the topic)