ADHD: Truth v. Lie

[Vanguard_Blue]

To set the stage for this discussion, let me explain the depth of my motivation. I want to join the armed services more than I have ever wanted anything in my life. Any obstacle I face standing between me and this goal is to be seen as something to conquer. Unfortunately for the stressed and unsure, some obstacles have multiple paths upon which they can be overcome and that is why I am here.

Now obviously I want into the Nuclear Program of the Navy or I would not be here. My family has a strong presence in this program and I want to continue this both for tradition and the more tangible training benefits. I took my ASVAB yesterday and suddenly found that the entire recruitment office had assumed the position of 'my best friend, when they found that I had scored a 93. My line scores are not in yet, but even if do not meet that requirement I know that I will be able to dispatch the NAPT with little trouble.

All of this speaks in my favor, but the real issue is that despite this, I have ADHD and have taken medicine for it up until three months ago. Now, mind you, that this is not the ADHD diagnosis that overburdened teachers give to rowdy seven-year-olds with the same frequency as gold stars. This is the 'He has been pacing back and forth for a straight hour while reading a book' variety. I can control myself just fine when I need to, but it is what it is.

Now then, the official policy for ADHD is that you have to be off of the medicine for one year before you can apply for service. Both my Recruiter, a Petty Officer, and the person who I presume manages the day to day of the office, Chief Petty Officer, have both advised me to lie to the MEPS about my ADHD in violation of the policy, explaining that the military has no way of checking.

This is the issue is that I am afraid that if I go into the Nuclear Program that they will pull my medical records to check for my security clearance and then run me out with a dishonorable discharge for fraudulent entry. On the other hand, If I act the boy scout I will need to put my life on hold for nine wasted months

Is this particular policy a serious matter? What are the chances that I will get caught if I go in under this kind of lie? What are the chances that I will get caught? Is it worth the risk? I would especially like the input of officers, former officers, or anyone who has dealt specifically with fraudulent entry concerns.

[retired nuke]

Don't lie. It'll come back to bite you somewhere. 

Work on yourself through behavior modification until your year off meds is done. Nuclear power school and pipeline is stressful, unless you have the ADHD well under control on your own, it could surface in ways not faorable to you while in school.

Then revisit the recruiters. Recruiters that encourage prospective recruits to lie only have their own number goals in mind, not the Navy, not the recruit.

That being said, it wouldn't hurt to spend some of this time working on college classes. It'll better prepare you, and may lead you in another direction. There are a number of civilian paths into nuclear power.

Good luck.

[Vanguard_Blue]

It is a pretty obvious violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 84, but I am not going to be the one to ruffle any feathers with an official complaint if my future is going to depend on a waiver decided on the arbitrary whim of some higher official.

That being said, I am still waffling on what I should do. Nine months is a lot of time to waste.

[Gamecock]

It is a pretty obvious violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 84. I am not going to be the one to ruffle any feathers with an official complaint if my future is going to depend on a waiver decided on the arbitrary whim of some higher official.

Hold on, future shipmate......

The waiver approval or disapproval will not come from your recruiters office. 

In the nuclear power program, we are trained to do what is right even when no one is looking.

You have failed the first test, in my opinion.

[Mike_Koehler]

    Please, Please, Please wait at least the 9 months....... I have been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD for the past 33 years and have been aware of a problem with my thought mechanism for 9 years before that. I was never medicated (my parents don't believe in meds for that) and I have learned over time how to work within my limitations. I went through the nuke pipeline and if I hadn't had some time to learn how to focus and complete tasks, I would have failed. Nuke School was a struggle for me.
    I would strongly suggest taking some Community College Science/Math classes while off the meds to learn how to focus on class work. Nuke School moves much faster than most other courses and if you have a loss of focus day, you could have a hard time recovering.
    I won't even go into the moral issues other than to say that the recruiter needs to be fired.


Mike Koehler

[withroaj]

It is a pretty obvious violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 84, but I am not going to be the one to ruffle any feathers with an official complaint if my future is going to depend on a waiver decided on the arbitrary whim of some higher official.

That being said, I am still waffling on what I should do. Nine months is a lot of time to waste.

Based on the fact you're having trouble with this decision I think you have great potential.  Many just do what the recruiter recommends and lie about pre-military issues to avoid the waiver pain-in-the-buns.

Since you know the right answer the debate should go away.  Do the right thing.  You got off to a good start by asking the question.

Nine months is a drop in the bucket, I promise.  I'm about to pass six years in the Navy and it feels like I just got started.  Wait it out and come in to the game with your head held high.  Then you win.

[Mike_Koehler]

That being said, I am still waffling on what I should do. Nine months is a lot of time to waste.

I am beginning to question whether you have the required integrity to do the job....... You need to do what is right, regardless of the consequences. That was (when I was in) a cornerstone of the program.

Mike

[Gamecock]

I am beginning to question whether you have the required integrity to do the job....... You need to do what is right, regardless of the consequences. That was (when I was in) a cornerstone of the program.

Mike

It still is. 

[Vanguard_Blue]

*Sigh*

I know it is disappointing to hear this from a prospective recruit, but you have to understand that these two things happened yesterday, literally within an hour of each other.

I walked out of the testing center feeling on top of the world only to walk straight into a brick wall. Surging confidence after the ASVAB and then the crushing blow that I would have to wait nine months because of something I didn't know about or face a major ethical violation.

So, yeah, at the moment it seems like wasted time. I probably will not feel that way in a week, but it is what it is and I am not going to act gung ho about waiting when I am horribly disappointed.

[Mike_Koehler]

So, yeah, at the moment it seems like wasted time. I probably will not feel that way in a week, but it is what it is and I am not going to act gung ho about waiting when I am horribly disappointed.

See my previous post about ADD/ADHD and nuke school and consider Community College courses. Astronomy is a good one...... Good choice

Mike

[Mike_Koehler]

What to do with his nine months

[withroaj]

You could also save money and study U.S. history on your own.  Read the Constitution of the United States of America.  Read the Declaration of Independence.  Read the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers.  Look up Hyman G. Rickover (the Legendary Father of the Nuclear Navy).

If you learn about how cool the job really is, and about the Republic you intend to serve, it helps the sucky parts (yeah, there are a few things about Navy Nuke life that aren't so great) pass almost unnoticed.

By the way, you might want to get used to waiting if you want to be a Navy Nuke.  You'll get used to the philosophy of "hurry up and wait."  In fact, It'll drive you nuts from time to time.

[Vanguard_Blue]

I guess I always knew that I wasn't going to go through with lying. This is just a pretty devastating blow and I was probably just looking for a lifeline for my immediate gratification.

I suppose I will start by getting my line scores. It will be quite the bullet to swallow if, despite having a 'learning disability', I managed to qualify off straight line scores. I have a sizable number of credits for my community college as it is, but I suppose I'll go back and take the second Physics and Calculus classes.

I'm still not sure about filing a formal complaint. What do you guys think?

[Mike_Koehler]

I'm still not sure about filing a formal complaint. What do you guys think?

That would be a personal choice....... Very difficult to prove..........

Mike

[HydroDave63]

if my future is going to depend on a waiver decided on the arbitrary whim of some higher official.

If you can't handle the idea of someone higher in the Chain O' Command giving a result not to your liking... your serving in ANY branch of the Armed Forces will not be a good fit for you or the service.

[imthehoopa]

I too was told by a recruiter to lie about a medical condition to go to MEPS. I was semi-diagnosed with asthma. The medical record says "questionable as to whether or not he has asthma." I was given an inhaler for a "just in case" precaution. I never used the inhaler and never really had asthma. I was just out of shape in high-school and joined the wrestling team. I had trouble breathing... go figure. Well, the recruiter told me based on that I could just keep that off of my paperwork. I'm not one to take chances when the end result could be that I have to pay 10,000 and do some time. He left it off the paperwork... I went on my own to get the medical records that said I had been given an inhaler and got the doctor to write a letter to the effect of "He does not have asthma. He was just out of shape." When I was dropped off at MEPS and was given my packet, I changed it to the truth and inserted my medical history from the family doctor. Although it was something stupid, I could have been made to get a waiver or do a cardio stress test like a friend of mine did (both would have held me up for at least another month or so). A month or so delay is much better than having to pay 10 grand for something so stupid. Even worse would be not being allowed to serve. It all comes down to what you decide to do with your own situation. I'm glad I did what I did, and from your last post it looks like you'll be doing the right thing. Good choice.

I do know how you feel about the waiting, my friend. Just signed my contract a couple weeks ago. I was hoping to ship out as soon as possible (I was thinking December at the latest). I don't go to bootcamp until the end of April. I picked up just a couple community college classes and took up 3 different jobs to save up some money. I'm counting on staying busy to pass the time rather quickly. Good luck to you.

[Smooth Operator]

Innovations in the treatment of ADD.

[JustinHEMI05]

To set the stage for this discussion, let me explain the depth of my motivation. I want to join the armed services more than I have ever wanted anything in my life. Any obstacle I face standing between me and this goal is to be seen as something to conquer. Unfortunately for the stressed and unsure, some obstacles have multiple paths upon which they can be overcome and that is why I am here.

Now obviously I want into the Nuclear Program of the Navy or I would not be here. My family has a strong presence in this program and I want to continue this both for tradition and the more tangible training benefits. I took my ASVAB yesterday and suddenly found that the entire recruitment office had assumed the position of 'my best friend, when they found that I had scored a 93. My line scores are not in yet, but even if do not meet that requirement I know that I will be able to dispatch the NAPT with little trouble.

All of this speaks in my favor, but the real issue is that despite this, I have ADHD and have taken medicine for it up until three months ago. Now, mind you, that this is not the ADHD diagnosis that overburdened teachers give to rowdy seven-year-olds with the same frequency as gold stars. This is the 'He has been pacing back and forth for a straight hour while reading a book' variety. I can control myself just fine when I need to, but it is what it is.

Now then, the official policy for ADHD is that you have to be off of the medicine for one year before you can apply for service. Both my Recruiter, a Petty Officer, and the person who I presume manages the day to day of the office, Chief Petty Officer, have both advised me to lie to the MEPS about my ADHD in violation of the policy, explaining that the military has no way of checking.

This is the issue is that I am afraid that if I go into the Nuclear Program that they will pull my medical records to check for my security clearance and then run me out with a dishonorable discharge for fraudulent entry. On the other hand, If I act the boy scout I will need to put my life on hold for nine wasted months

Is this particular policy a serious matter? What are the chances that I will get caught if I go in under this kind of lie? What are the chances that I will get caught? Is it worth the risk? I would especially like the input of officers, former officers, or anyone who has dealt specifically with fraudulent entry concerns.

Easy answer... don't lie. Find something constructive/fun to do for 9 months.

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

You have failed the first test, in my opinion.

+1.

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

You could also save money and study U.S. history on your own.  Read the Constitution of the United States of America.  Read the Declaration of Independence.  Read the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers.  Look up Hyman G. Rickover (the Legendary Infamous Father of the Nuclear Navy).

If you learn about how cool the job really is, and about the Republic you intend to serve, it helps the sucky parts (yeah, there are a few things about Navy Nuke life that aren't so great) pass almost unnoticed.

By the way, you might want to get used to waiting if you want to be a Navy Nuke.  You'll get used to the philosophy of "hurry up and wait."  In fact, It'll drive you nuts from time to time.

Fixed it for ya. 

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

I guess I always knew that I wasn't going to go through with lying. This is just a pretty devastating blow and I was probably just looking for a lifeline for my immediate gratification.

I suppose I will start by getting my line scores. It will be quite the bullet to swallow if, despite having a 'learning disability', I managed to qualify off straight line scores. I have a sizable number of credits for my community college as it is, but I suppose I'll go back and take the second Physics and Calculus classes.

I'm still not sure about filing a formal complaint. What do you guys think?

I would just walk away from the situation for 9 months.

Justin

[JustinHEMI05]

Innovations in the treatment of ADD.

That is how I remember things being handled. LOL  I won't give my opinions on ADHD/ADD/hyperactivity or any other medicated childhood "disorder" here. 

Justin

[deltarho]

Vanguard_Blue

As I was reading your initial post, I couldn't help noticing that your writing style was similar to any you might find being submitted for an English class essay assignment.  It was well composed, albeit with a few errors, but not your typical internet forum endeavor.  This bodes well of your capacity to do well in the program.

Moreover, it was obvious to me by what you wrote that you already knew that being asked to lie was WRONG!  This bodes well of your capacity to do well in the program.

However, I'm a little miffed that you came to us to get permission to lie.  Why didn't you consult those in your family that you commented about being in the program?  I believe you already knew what they would say, but didn't want to hear that answer.

Let me tell you something that you can learn from...

When I was a section adviser at NFAS, sailors in my two sections were implicated in underage drinking.  I won't go into how they were indicted, but I called them in one-by-one to ask them two questions:  "Have you been underage drinking and who have you been underage drinking with."

Every one of them said "yes" that they had been underage drinking.  Every one of them gave me a laundry list of names, most of them I already had from a previous source.

Extremely long story short...every one of them was not denuked.  When the Department Head asked me my recommendation for their disposition, I told them that they passed the integrity test and I needed to prove to them that what we taught them was true.  That is, you are allowed to be stupid and make mistakes (for which you may have consequences), but don't ever lie, cheat, or steal.  They all got EMI, hard card entries to ensure that a recurrence would forever seal their fate, and mandatory 35 hours for the duration of NFAS.

Your life lesson will go unnoticed by most, but you dragged us into it.  I say that although you ruminated about what you should do, the fact that you did not carry out the ruse is in your favor.  However, your character flaw is that you are willing to allow a mob to potentially undermine you.  We are that mob that you sought out to pass the blame onto when you got caught in your lie.  As an analogy regarding this situation, you are no different than a 15-year old girl who was found out she went too far with a boy.   She will claim that it wasn't her fault, she isn't really a slut.   She was not responsible for her actions because she was high or drunk.  Well, why do you think she put herself in that position--plausible deniability.  Everyone except her sees right through that scam.

Grow up in these nine months.

[Preciousblue1965]

I won't add to the conversation of whether you should lie or not.  If you haven't found the answer to that question by now, you probably don't need to be a nuke to start with. 

However I will give you some advice on what to do in the mean time.  If you really REALLY want to get a slight idea of what the NNPP pipeline is going to be like, go to your local Comm. College and take courses during the summer sessions.  Most summer sessions are abreviated, fast paced courses that meet for several hours every day of the week.  They usually last about 5-7 weeks per session with about 3 sessions over all.  Take 2-3 classes per session and you will have a glimpse of what the pace is for the NNPP.  Not only that, depending on what classes you take, it will put you on track to get your TESC NET degree that much sooner(TESC NET=Thomas Edison State College Nuclear Eng. Tech). 

P.S. I would recommend English Comp I, II Calc I, II, maybe some Chem. and Physics as well. 

[rlbinc]

The odd part is, a generation ago the diagnosis didn't exist. We have some rather successful people in the industry who have at some time displayed those symptoms, particularly earlier in life. I'm no doctor, but I know that gifted children in an unchallenging environment have been diagnosed ADHD. Given more to do, physically and mentally, they generally find the medication unneeded. The Navy ought to look at this differently. One of the sharpest SROs I have ever worked with was temporarily treated as a young man. Fortunately, an interested school teacher saw him tone down under medication and brought up challenging alternatives to his parents.
If I were you, I'd forget the past and go for what you want.