RO-2 and RO-2A Question

[X-Nuke]

I've been reading through the posts about the aging fleet of RO-2s and RO-2As and it got me a bit curious.  If you could buy an RO-2 new today with updated electronics and a heavier case and an audio feature, is that an instrument that people would buy?

If you could buy an instrument like that in the $500 to $600 range, is that of any interest?

I've seen the posts about the RO-20s and just wondering if Thermo is really missing the boat with their marketing.  I'd really like to get your thoughts (I'm in no way affiliated with an instrument vendor, I just curious about why a successful product is no longer sold and if I'm misreading the market).

Thanks,

Bill

[RDTroja]

The majority of technicians I know, when given a choice between an RO-20 and an RO-2, will pick the RO-2 consistently except in a rare case where lighting may be a problem. The light is the only thing that is an improvement (I don't want a hand-held meter that goes over 5 R/hr anyway.) Everything else is a downgrade. If I had my way I would use nothing else (except a teletector.) Until someone improves on the RO-2, they will be worth whatever you have to pay for them... but only to the technician using them. Management will buy whatever is cheap and won't get them fined.

[grantime]

Not sure an audio feature is worth that much. 

If you can get a meter that will pass a drop test and have stable readouts (analog please) people will buy it.  Spend some time working on the ergonomics.  Make sure it is easy and comfortable to carry. 

[SloGlo]

I've been reading through the posts about the aging fleet of RO-2s and RO-2As and it got me a bit curious.  If you could buy an RO-2 new today with updated electronics and a heavier case and an audio feature, is that an instrument that people would buy?

If you could buy an instrument like that in the $500 to $600 range, is that of any interest?

yes.

yes.

[UncaBuffalo]

The majority of technicians I know, when given a choice between an RO-20 and an RO-2, will pick the RO-2 consistently except in a rare case where lighting may be a problem. The light is the only thing that is an improvement (I don't want a hand-held meter that goes over 5 R/hr anyway.) Everything else is a downgrade. If I had my way I would use nothing else (except a teletector.) Until someone improves on the RO-2, they will be worth whatever you have to pay for them... but only to the technician using them. Management will buy whatever is cheap and won't get them fined.

Count me with the majority...I hate RO-20s...unless I'm doing something (S/G platform survey, cavity survey, etc) where fast response is a plus...then I'll take the 20...

I've been reading through the posts about the aging fleet of RO-2s and RO-2As and it got me a bit curious.  If you could buy an RO-2 new today with updated electronics and a heavier case and an audio feature, is that an instrument that people would buy?

Audio on an ion chamber?  Teach me.

[desertdog]

Ludlum has an audio feature on their 9-2 model.  It is always switched off.  Just clicks like a frisker.  Who needs that in the field?

[RDTroja]

Count me with the majority...I hate RO-20s...unless I'm doing something (S/G platform survey, cavity survey, etc) where fast response is a plus...then I'll take the 20...

Audio on an ion chamber?  Teach me.

Ludlum has an audio feature on their 9-2 model.  It is always switched off.  Just clicks like a frisker.  Who needs that in the field?

Before I could finish typing, desertdog posted, but as for the 'teach me' part...

A GM tube is an ion chamber, so there is no conflict in 'clicking' if you are an ion chamber. The difference is the operating voltage which determines how much energy the 'click' represents. In a GM tube a click means 'some energy entered the tube and ionized all of the gas, causing a pulse.' There is no telling how much energy, except that it has to be enough to penetrate the detector walls. If the voltage is in the ionization range (where what we refer to as 'ion chamber' instruments operate) or in the proportional range there is still a pulse, but the energy of the pulse can be measured more than just 'all of the gas ionized." We can tell how much gas ionized and therefore how much energy got into the tube in the form of ionizing radiation. Realistically you could turn that pulse into either a click to show the pulse occurred, or a tone to indicate the relative 'value' of the pulse. The frequency could be altered to indicate the amount of ionization creating, say, an increasingly higher pitch for increasing dose rates. Think of the music you could create in a varying dose field... or not.

I don't think any of this should be new info to most of the technicians here, but we normally think of a GM tube as pulsing and an 'ion chamber' instrument like an RO-2 (really an 'ionization range instrument') emitting a 'flow' of energy. Not true.  The RO-2 is still measuring pulses. They just vary in strength based on the incident radiation's energy.

[UncaBuffalo]

Ludlum has an audio feature on their 9-2 model.  It is always switched off.  Just clicks like a frisker.  Who needs that in the field?

Thanks.  I haven't used a 9-2...always associated audible response with a G/M.  Looked at the 9-2 tech manual and they are driving the audio off of a voltage-to-frequency converter?  http://www.ludlums.com/manuals/M9-2feb07.pdf  How does that work on speed of response?  The cool thing about an audible on a G/M was the instant response...way better for finding hot spots, etc.  If the Ion Chamber audio is as slow as the needle response, I'm not seeing any advantage...

[UncaBuffalo]

Before I could finish typing, desertdog posted, but as for the 'teach me' part...

A GM tube is an ion chamber, so there is no conflict in 'clicking' if you are an ion chamber. The difference is the operating voltage which determines how much energy the 'click' represents. In a GM tube a click means 'some energy entered the tube and ionized all of the gas, causing a pulse.' There is no telling how much energy, except that it has to be enough to penetrate the detector walls. If the voltage is in the ionization range (where what we refer to as 'ion chamber' instruments operate) or in the proportional range there is still a pulse, but the energy of the pulse can be measured more than just 'all of the gas ionized." We can tell how much gas ionized and therefore how much energy got into the tube in the form of ionizing radiation. Realistically you could turn that pulse into either a click to show the pulse occurred, or a tone to indicate the relative 'value' of the pulse. The frequency could be altered to indicate the amount of ionization creating, say, an increasingly higher pitch for increasing dose rates. Think of the music you could create in a varying dose field... or not.

I don't think any of this should be new info to most of the technicians here, but we normally think of a GM tube as pulsing and an 'ion chamber' instrument like an RO-2 (really an 'ionization range instrument') emitting a 'flow' of energy. Not true.  The RO-2 is still measuring pulses. They just vary in strength based on the incident radiation's energy.

Yeah, I'm one of those techs that had always thought that it was just a flow of energy.  Was introduced to the 'pulses-in-an-ionization-range-instrument' a couple of days ago in Incore Instrumentation class...still getting my head around it...

[X-Nuke]

The audio feature is something I've never used but is available on ion chambers like the Ludlum Model 9.  I can see the usefulness if you're looking for small hot spots as the sound changes faster than the meter indication.  I see it working like surveying with a geiger type meter like the E-530 or Ludlum Model 3 with an energy compensated GM probe.  I've just never had anything like that on an ion chamber.

Bill

[X-Nuke]

I saw something else in the posts about ion chambers and GM tubes being the same but that's not really the case.  Ion chambers are current mode devices operated in the ionization region. Ions that are formed from interactions within the chamber are drawn to the electrodes resulting in a small current.  There aren't pulses in a normal ion chamber.

A geiger tube is a "cascade" type detector where ions are accelerated toward the anode at a much higher voltage (geiger region) and results in secordary collisions that generate a detector discharge and associated pulse.  All pulses are the same height regardless of energy of the radiation that caused them.

Fission Chambers and other reactor startup detectors are ion chambers internally coated with a fissionable material that results in a current spike due to the interaction of a neutron.  Electronically, you can treat this spike as you would with any other pulse type detector and this is useful because the normal current output from the chamber is the gamma background whereas the pulse can be decoupled with a capacitor and used as the neutron rate only. 

Proportional detectors operate in the proportional region between the ionization and geiger regions.  In a proportional detector, the multiplication of the cascade results in a pulse that is proportional to the event that caused it. 

Hope I didn't put anybody off with the explanation but it seemed like there was a misunderstanding.

Bill

[SloGlo]

 I can see the usefulness if you're looking for small hot spots as the sound changes faster than the meter indication.

iffen yinz ever ust a meter with interchangable probes, then ya kin appreciated audio.  increasing sound indicating increasing levels is a great thing, whether searchin out hot spots or just using yer ear to monitor yer meter while its riding on yer hip.  regarding clicks versus enny udder type of sound, that's relatively easy to customize while building a model.  aye think clicks were used because they get attention, butt beeps have bin used (check out a rad dad at yer local hp antiquities show), 'n tonal changes wood be a snap with today's technology (go talk to sum one at da geek squad or radio shack).  hail, rig it two a bluetooth 'n ya gots yer audio in yer ear under yer hood. 

[X-Nuke]

Funny you should bring it up SloGlo as I was thinking about that BlueTooth idea myself.  I think the clicking or chirping traces back to the old days of geiger counters but does tend to be more easily heard in high noise environments because of the on-off nature of the sound.  Sure do like the wireless headset idea.

Speaking of RO-2s, I have a friend that just came across a bunch of new old stock RO-2 replacement cases complete with slides and windows.  Does anybody still use these and what do you think they're worth.  Thanks.

Bill

[alphadude]

audio on an IOC hmmmm-


the RO2 was pretty good as it is. Ive repaired hundreds of them and I think it is one of the best ever made.. it can be repaired, understood by the novice repairman, and a work horse. Improve the ergonomics, you might put a synth-voice audio (Holysh** its 1r here.) etc.

[grantime]

idea.

Speaking of RO-2s, I have a friend that just came across a bunch of new old stock RO-2 replacement cases complete with slides and windows.  Does anybody still use these and what do you think they're worth.  Thanks.

Completely worthless...  Go ahead and send them here and I'll dispose of them for you   

[SloGlo]

Improve the ergonomics, you might put a synth-voice audio (Holysh** its 1r here.) etc.

keep dat four da ro2a, 10 are deserves dat audio.

[namlive]

At SRS we only use RO-20s. The needle on the instrument is sometimes erratic, of course wrapping instruments in plastic may be part of a static problem. Personally I would love an ion chamber with sound and I thought of that idea back in 1994, but never did anything other than that. Currently I will use an Electra-plus or frisker to locate the "hot spot" on a drum or B-25 for a survey, then check it with my RO-20. Using that method, instead of the drag the ion chamber slowly all around the B-25 method and waiting for a response, gives me an extra coffee break.

[X-Nuke]

I've now been through the guts of a few RO-20s that I had in for repair and frankly, the things are horrible.  It's basically a Bicron RSO-50 with less thought into it.  At nearly $2000 a pop, I wouldn't have one of the things.

I think I might look at having some RO-2 type meters manufactured as a competitive product. I think that with the newer ICs, you can get five decades like an RO-20 so you'd cover the range of the RO-2 and RO-2A. Add an audio feature to make hot spot surveys and high rad entries easier and light the meter for low light conditions and I think you have a really nice meter. I'm pretty sure you could market and sell the meter for under $1000.

Hadn't really thought of getting back into the rad monitoring business but seems like there a need for a high quality instrument at a reasonable cost.  Guess I'll have to switch my ID from X-Nuke to Re-Nuked.

Bill

[SloGlo]

Add an audio feature to make hot spot surveys and high rad entries easier and light the meter for low light conditions and I think you have a really nice meter.
Hadn't really thought of getting back into the rad monitoring business but seems like there a need for a high quality instrument at a reasonable cost.

iffen yinz kin come up wit a light wait replacement for a 2221, that'd be nice.  aye rilly like every thing bout da 2221 except four dat weight.

[OldHP]

Quote from X-Nuke on Feb 5th:

I've seen the posts about the RO-20s and just wondering if Thermo is really missing the boat with their marketing.  I'd really like to get your thoughts (I'm in no way affiliated with an instrument vendor, I just curious about why a successful product is no longer sold and if I'm misreading the market).

Once upon a time ...  Years (about 40) ago the Eberline sales folks would ask, "What do you want to see in a new instrument"?  They would take or send that information back to SantaFe and a young engineer in the R&D section (Don Ludlum) would build it.  Then the management and marketing tactic changed.  (In those days Eberline built G-M instruments, Victoreen built I-C instruments).

The new marketing tactic was, this is the state of the art and what we are selling, we don't care what you want, this is what we have.  (Don Ludlum of course left to form his own company with the old strategy).

Today if it is a hit in Europe, they change the meter face and say – everyone loves it, you have to have it.

[X-Nuke]

OldHP,

I'm going to give the devil his due while in no way wanting to seem like I'm going to minimize the ongoing impact that Don's products continue to make. Don started Ludlum Measurements in 1962 so he was pretty much out of Eberline at the height of their business which I would have to say was more like the 1970s and 1980s.  I think you are right on the money in terms of where the focus of the company needs to be if you are going to be successful in the long run. I don't think there is a better company than Ludlum Measurements when it comes to the values that customers look for in terms of value, supportability, and customer service.

Now as to Eberline, I think they did have that customer focus through about 1980 and then something went horribly wrong. I don't think most of their instruments ever really held a candle to the stuff Ludlum was producing but they were selling a bunch of them and they were being very successful at it. If you look back at the main Eberline instruments of that era, E-140, E-520, E-530, RO-1, RO-2/2A, RO-7, RM-14, and the MS-2 and MS-3, they pretty much owned a good portion of the market.

I sort of saw two things happen that was their downfall.  One was that Eberline thought they could get into the systems business and the other was they got into the computerized hand held market without understanding what problem they were trying to fix.  Both of these efforts led to them taking their eye off the ball and letting Ludlum take over the market Eberline had owned. Meanwhile, Thermo is buying up companies like crazy and integrating them trying to add value and reduce costs and in the process further destroying the former brands and producing a "one size fits none" set of meters that nobody is happy with.

I'm not sure that Thermo is ever coming back from the hole they've dug for themselves. I've read a number of the DOE Instrument Committee reports and every meeting with the Thermo/Eberline folks sort of read like an NTSB Accident Report.  I'm not sure why it is that the Thermo guys can't seem to get it but trying to convince somebody that what you're selling is what they want regardless of how many times they tell you it's not is just plan silly.

SloGlo, I'll have to work on the 2221 next.  I agree with you, the capability is great but the weight and size needs work. On the other hand, if you needed a meter in an alley fight, I'd grab a 2221.

Bill

[Nukeman2k]

Bill,
The Bicron RSO series got its origins from a salesman, Xxxx Xxxxx, who was fired at Eberline. When he left he took about 20 pounds of copies of engineering documents with him. Biroc hired him and they started producing the RSO5 and RSO50. The RSO50E was produced from some of the early designs of what later became the RO20. The main problem with the RO20 was trying to produce an instrument that used an 'off the shelf' OP amp and not the spec device that the RO2/2A used. One of the reasons that Bicron left the business was that they did not have an R&D department. Thermo bought them for the MicroRem.

Xxxxxx and Xxx were business partners that left Los Alamos together. Xxxxxx was the marketing guy and Xxx was the design guy. After a while they disagreed over they type of instruments to make. Xxxxxx wanted the 'Cadillac' of the line and Xxx wanted to offer a 'Chevrolet' version. Xxxxxxx said no and Xxx left. He went east until he felt humidity and then backed up 50 miles.

Xxxxxxx ran into money trouble and had to sell out to stay in business. This started the quality slide.

Xxxx Xxxxxx, a former president of Eberline was the first to start buying up companies to accuire their technology.

Thermo will never be able to recover. It takes customer service to win and keep business. Thermo chases the easy dollars like Homeland Security. Thermo also sells lots of lab and other scientific eqipment/instrumentation. Rad stuff is just the nail on their little toe.

Ludlum is more like a small manufacturing company who happens to make Radiation Monitoring Instruments. A lot of the old guard from Eberline are there. Xxx calls them his Eberline Retreads.

In the interest of fair and balanced reporting, I worked for Eberline as a bench tech for two years and Field Srevice Engineer for 12 years. I left right before the Thermalization and have been with Entergy at the Central Calibration Facility for 12 years.

vic

[SpyCat]

Eberline/Thermo is a sad story.  I agree with your points about repairing RO-2 being no fun especially the swing arm adjust.  Too bad, otherwise it was a workhorse.  We gave up on repairing & maintaining RO-2's.  And since most surveying here is <5 mR/hr, we mothballed our RO-2A's years ago.
We have a fleet of RO-20's on the shelf, but most techs just will not use them.  I say the RO-20's weak point is it doesn't hold a zero so well.  Otherwise its pluses are
- More sophisticated circuitry
- 5 scales
- no swing arm.

[Eds0123]

Bill said:

"I saw something else in the posts about ion chambers and GM tubes being the same but that's not really the case."

Yes, IC and G-M detectors are both gas filled detectors operating under a certain bias applied voltage, but they respond a bit differently to certain spectrum of gamma radiation. G-M detectors over respond to less than 100Kev energy photons of Cs-137. Ion chambers on the other hand have a more proportional more smooth response to Cs-137 spectrum. Energy response curves of Ludlum 44-9 probe and of an RO-20 shows this clearly. of course proper instrument calibration would rectify the energy response discrepancy of the instrument.