Asbestos

[UncaBuffalo]

Any asbestos gurus out there?

Here's the question:  Do the unfinished edges of marinite need to be wrapped?  (We have a bunch of panels with broken edges that we have to be next to, so...?  We were told not to worry about it..."Marinite isn't friable"...but then saw a huge cloud of dust come off of the area when the ventilation switched.)

[Motown homey]

If there's a possibility that it's asbestos, request a sample be taken and analyzed.  A OSHA certified Lab, or even an on-site analyst should be able to discern asbestos from common dust.  Even non-friable substances can become airborne under the right circumstances. 

[UncaBuffalo]

If there's a possibility that it's asbestos, request a sample be taken and analyzed.  A OSHA certified Lab, or even an on-site analyst should be able to discern asbestos from common dust.  Even non-friable substances can become airborne under the right circumstances.  

The person that should take the sample is the one that told me, "Marinite isn't friable"...so they aren't real receptive to doing an analysis...  :/

You have some old stuff there.  My experience, education, training, and common sense tells me that asbestos fibers would not be released unless there was sufficient mechanical agitation to disturb the matrix of the product.  In other words, do not grind or sand it and you'll be fine.  I suppose the dust cloud was just that...dust.

 

Would breaking chunks off by hand fall under the 'sufficient agitation' heading?  It's fairly obvious that someone has been breaking the marinite to improve access to a tight spot.  There are still pieces that were broken off lying in the area...




Thanks for the help!  

[Marlin]

FYI

http://www.redseal.com/download/MSDS_MariniteA.pdf

[UncaBuffalo]

FYI

http://www.redseal.com/download/MSDS_MariniteA.pdf

Yeah, Marinite still produces multiple styles of fireboard & other fire resistant products...I couldn't tell from their website whether any of the new ones have asbestos, but some of the older ones did.  I don't know when this was installed, but it has been tested & is asbestos.

Snapping a piece in two or breaking off chunks is not a good work practice.  However, I would not be overly concerned over a few broken up pieces.  It is very doubtful that the matrix of the material was disturbed to the point that asbestos fibers were released.

A bulk sample could be sent off for a laboratory analysis to determine if the material is ACM (asbestos containing material).  ACM is defined as containing >1% asbestos by volume.  You can also obtain this information by reviewing the material safety data sheet (MSDS).  Reviewing the MSDS is quicker and cheaper.  Right now let's call it PACM (presumed asbestos containing material).

Remember, even if it is confirmed by laboratory analysis or through historical documentation that the material is ACM, that does not mean there was an exposure.  In fact, it is extremely unlikely that an occupational exposure occurred.  Air moitoring now would be an after the fact, reactive, measure and of little benefit to determine if a possible occupational exposure occurred at some certain point in time in the past.

Of course, please understand that I say all this without benefit of an on-site assessment.  For a modest fee I would consider providing a field assessment.  

They have sampled previously and it is ACM.  I've been googling and looks like most marinite was in the 20-40% range.

I probably won't be back in that workspace for several weeks, but wanted to have my ducks in a row next time I go in...

[Marlin]

Yeah, Marinite still produces multiple styles of fireboard & other fire resistant products...I couldn't tell from their website whether any of the new ones have asbestos, but some of the older ones did.  I don't know when this was installed, but it has been tested & is asbestos.

Sorry I should not have been so brief, I understand that asbestos may be present but if you had a cloud of dust that was generated from the panel the silica may also be a concern. I have been doing waste management for a lot old DOE facilities over the last seven years. I have run into a number of materials including vermiculite that had to be treated as asbestos because it had a history of asbestos contamination from mines. Foundries and other facilities using high heat have silica and silicate containing materials that may be of concern and may treated similar to asbestos in handling but not disposal.

[Marlin]

In my humble opinion there is NO need to manage silica the same way you would manage ACM...little apples...HUGE ORANGES.

In general yes, silica is one of the main hazards in construction site road dust and nothing more than wetting the roads is called for but, there are silica compounds used in construction materials if in an airborne form require respirtory protection and handling as hazardous waste. Asbestos is clearly a hazard but if it were not for litigation and enhanced regulatory constraints it would not be treated much different than many other much worse carcinogens in the work place. Like PCB regulation asbestos rules ran out ahead of the relative hazard. Both were regulated heavily in the heat of public opinion and litigation only to find that although it was hazardous it did not warrant the attention it was given.

[UncaBuffalo]

Thanks for all the replies. 


Sounds like I can de-stress about just working in the area...but have them do a little clean-up if we have to get intimate with the marinite...

[UncaBuffalo]

UPDATE:  The site asbestos guy re-considered his initial response & is going to have all the broken marinite edges wrapped. 

[UncaBuffalo]

I had a chance to talk with the asbestos guy today.  He said that after they had looked at the area, it was decided that (although there probably wasn't an inhalation concern) they would apply the wrap to keep people from getting the asbestos fibers all over their clothing...the work area is quite tight.

[RDTroja]

I am certainly not an asbestos expert, but it would be very hard for someone to convince me that it is not an inhalation hazard, but that the fibers can get on your clothes. Sounds like backpedaling to me.

Just my (perhaps uninformed) opinion, of course.

[UncaBuffalo]

You have a point.  If asbestos fibers can get onto your clothing they certainly can get into your lungs (assuming no respiratory protection is used).  Simply wrapping ACM with plastic is all show and no go.  It is an effort to appease the employees.  If there is an exposure issue than manage it correctly, which is not merely wrapping the ACM with plastic.  If there is not an exposure issue than say so and close the book.

The 'wrap' they used reminds me of the guaze/plaster-of-paris strips that you make a cast with...just wet & wrap & it's all a nice sealed surface once it dries.  (Kind of like mud & tape for drywall...)

[Already Gone]

As luck would have it, I am taking my NY State Asbestos Supervisor Exam tomorrow.  So, a little fresh knowledge that I can offer is that the statement "Marinite is not friable" is ill-informed.  Any and all ACM can become friable.  The definition of friable is the condition of a material that can be crushed by hand pressure.  Any damaged ACM must be repaired, enclosed, encapsulated or removed by qualified workers who have current state certification.  The custodial staff should be trained in operation and maintenance of ACM.

Although the first response seems like BS to me, it sounds like they came around and are doing the right thing.  But, whenever you enter the area in the future, you should make a careful inspection of the material and report any damage to your IH.

Also, be careful about brand-names such as Marinite or Garlock.  Many people confuse the brand-name with the content of the material.  Although neither of these is currently manufactured with asbestos, both were in the past.  So, a current MSDS may not be a reliable source of information about materials used in construction of an old nuclear plant (or any other facility for that matter).

[UncaBuffalo]

29 CFR and 40 CFR (fallout from AHERA) apply, PACM (pre 1980 construction) is the first red flag for the layman. Just because it's PACM doesn't mean it's ACM. But the employer is essentially bound under 29 CFR to rebut PACM as detailed in 40 CFR 763. Your on-site competent person or contractor can refer to ASTM E 2356 for how to perform the baseline survey if it's not already done. As I interpret the original posters follow on posts I would be led to conclude this baseline is not done or is not comprehensive enough as the on-site specialist would have had the details at his fingertips. Also, depending on the on-site competent persons length of employment, it would not be unreasonable to conclude the competent person would have assumed this is not a ACM problem as most facilities have dealt with these issues at least 15 to 20 years ago. As Beercourt does this stuff for a living he is a good current source of information, so is the company he works for.

My asbestos workers certificate was from New York some time ago. My Asbestos Supervisor certificate was from Massachusetts not quite so long ago. In either case, asbestos is not what I do on a daily basis lately. But my two cents (growing into two nickels) is mostly for perspective. My perception is you do not have a serious or even a minor health risk in your workplace. It's possible you have some minor compliance issues, but that's why we like the compliance issues to be such a pain in the rear. By keeping the compliance issues tight and onerous, we can avoid the minor or serious health issues.

Peace,...marssim    

No, he has agreed all along that it's ACM...every other panel has the big "HANDS OFF, BOZO!  This IS Asbestos!" sign...but he hadn't realized how much we were going to be coming in contact with the broken edges until he walked the area down...

[UncaBuffalo]

Sorry 'buff,...See what happens when I go against my own reluctance about getting involved in technical and compliance issues in the forums??

You never get enough background and detail to present a responsible assessment or plan of compliance.

There's always some pertinent detail that is either omitted or overlooked and the precepts for correction are shown to be poor or just wrong assumptions.

The discussion tends to veer into culture philosophies as opposed to specific fixes for specific problems.

Oh well,.......back to PolySci

My bad...I looked at the second post I made & I did make it sound like the ACM analysis was missing.  (It was actually the airborne analysis that he was vacillating about doing...)


Thanks again!  

[Already Gone]

Saying that any and all ACM can become friable is not really accurate.  Asbestos can be found in concrete products and brake shoes. I doubt even Hulk Hogan can crush concrete or brake shoes by merely applying hand pressure.   Superman maybe, but not Hulk Hogan.

Do not confuse the term friable with the release of asbestos fibers.  If ACM is subjected to mechanical agitation that sufficiently disturbs the matrix of the ACM then fibers could be released. Taking an electric grinder to those ACM brake shoes or a jackhammer to the ACM concrete may release fibers but it will not make the brake shoes or concrete friable.

I don't think I am the one confusing terms.  All ACM can BECOME friable.  Heat, water, vibration, weather, gravity, ... etc. can change the nature of the matrix, degrading it to the point when it can be crushed by hand.  Just take a good look at that concrete wall after it has been subjected to flood water or extreme heat over a period of time.  You'll be able to push a finger right through it.  The only thing that lasts forever is a bad nickname.

[Already Gone]

Well, yeah.  You manufacture something with it.  You leave it somewhere for years and allow the matrix to degrade.  The fact that a material - such as Marinite - is not friable when manufactured does not mean that it won't be friable at a point in the future.  Time and nature have a way of destroying everything.

Yes you do need to protect your basement from water, by the way.  I used to live in a house down the street, where the previous owners saw no need to keep up the gutters and downspouts.  The concrete was the consistency of wet chalk.  The current owner has spent beaucoup dollars to fix the foundation.

I passed the test.  Good thing I studied for it.  Lots of acronyms and way too many government agencies with their fingers in the pie to keep track of.