Outages For 2010

[SloGlo]

What I want to know is why they weren't all knocked out cold when the guy said "Rest" and everybody just let go of their oars? Those things would have come straight back and clocked them all right in the face if that was really a boat and they had been moving as fast as they should have been.

oh four criing aught lowd!  enny buddy watt nos any ting bout or usage wood reelize dat dese guyz wuzzant on know stinking boat!  itz plane as dey dat day where onna vessel witch hadda deck to ship there oars. 

[HydroDave63]

What I want to know is why they weren't all knocked out cold when the guy said "Rest" and everybody just let go of their oars? Those things would have come straight back and clocked them all right in the face if that was really a boat and they had been moving as fast as they should have been.

I guess it just goes to show, when you have a large gaggle of hot,sweaty techs in one place working tired, they don't all have their oars in the water!! 

[btkeele]

"and there are high risk jobs that the house tech can't cover it all."



please, spare me.


asw

LOL..,. but you learned it on the road buddy....from  MARY...oh ASA, when are we doing the TIP Run?
BK

[btkeele]

Back on topic...for some reason a lot of people think the contract company determines
the number of tech's (Jr's in this case) and when outages fall.... It has been my experience
that even if a plant cannot fill with Sr's, they are hesitant to bring in Jr's to fill those slots..
a lot of it has to do with money involved for 100% staffing... blame the utilities bean counters for this,
the utility HP staff usually think like us, i.e.  it is better to have a jr than nothing, as they can do
a lot of the work.... but, as we know,  $$$ talks...
My advice to any new Jr is to take any and all work associated with HP, not just commercial...
look at DOE, do decon or anything dealing with rad material... a lot of this time will add up...
also look at going to school for a year, it will help with getting time to be 3.1... don't limit yourself
to just outages.

[SloGlo]

...getting time to be 3.1...

usta take a whole lot longer to git a 3.1 rating when da criteria was 36 months of operating commercial nuclear power plant time.  18.1 tex where everywere, 3.1 had da big money.

[btkeele]

Slogo..very true...each plant's procedures vary (and their interpretation as well),
but, some plants will give credit (with limits) for decon time, Frisker monitor, decomissioning,
DOE, etc...it never hurts to diversify....

[klsas]

It seems a lot of the companies have partnered with some community colleges and are obligated to bring in interns for their outages. So, if a plant normally requests 10 junior's, 6 to 8 of those slots are being filled with the interns. This doesn't bode well for the junior trying to break in via the decon to junior route. The interns are also the ones that will start filling house tech slots as they come open. The past few years have seen long term house people retiring and being replaced by the same age road tech. As the interns flood the market, they will become the new house tech. The utilities have been looking at the issue of the traveling tech for quite some time. It appears that they have found a way to replace their aging staffs.
When the DOE money stops flowing, there will be a glut of techs on the market for the relatively few slots open come outage time. I believe that will force techs into a core group somewhere in order to get work. I think the only thing that will change this scenario is to start building new plants, but that is not going to happen anytime soon. We are probably 10-15 years away from having new plants go online. As long as the anti-nukes are louder than the pro-nukes, this industry doesn't look good for the future. Just my 50 cents.

Keith

[Content1]

It seems a lot of the companies have partnered with some community colleges and are obligated to bring in interns for their outages. So, if a plant normally requests 10 junior's, 6 to 8 of those slots are being filled with the interns. This doesn't bode well for the junior trying to break in via the decon to junior route. The interns are also the ones that will start filling house tech slots as they come open. The past few years have seen long term house people retiring and being replaced by the same age road tech. As the interns flood the market, they will become the new house tech. The utilities have been looking at the issue of the traveling tech for quite some time. It appears that they have found a way to replace their aging staffs.

Keith

One problem with this theory is people are not lackeys who are obliged to stay in the field once they are trained, or even finish.   The relative low pay of starting house techs with a long training path can have career causalties and better opportunities grab these people.  I have heard there are very few techs who make it from ground zero to senior HP or as a core person.  Educated SHP's have many other higher paying options not necessarily in the nuke field.   IF this is the companies big plan, and no new plants are on the horizon, it will spin alot of wheels but not accomplish their goal of a reliable source of techs.   Compared with the traveling tech who have the wherewithal to get trained, travel many miles, show up for work, are motivated to self-educated, and have a broad experience of many plants that essentially cost the company little as compared with dedicated programs, some bean counter will discover this if the Obama recession continues and it will be the first thing cut.

[SloGlo]

Slogo..very true...each plant's procedures vary (and their interpretation as well),

knot to argue (two much) but its not a plant thing, it's da a.n.s.i. definition.  that iz watt got changed from 36 months operating commercial power plant to commercial power plant.  notice the "operating" deletion.  outtages didn't count bee four.  only on-line time.

[RAD-GHOST]

Been a while since I posted, this could be one of Marlins wrestling scenerio....

klsas gave you some very accurate and very usefull information, but it obviously doesn't meet your current mission!

There are currently hundreds of new juniors in what I'll call the Power Pool!  Their advantage is enrollment in one of the formalized training programs offered throught out the country.  Most are supported by some type of sponsorship program.  Some are actually being paid to attend these programs.  If you want to give your off spring an advantage and future in the industry, realize the competition and adapt as necessary.  From a business perspective, which individual do you want to hire?  The one who just completed 40 weeks of observed, verifiable, testable training in theory, physics, instrumentation, systems, chemistry and regulatory indoctrination, or the one who has 2000 hours at outages doing whatever?

This information wont help the current situation, but hopefully it will prevent a repeat in the future!

Before you piss all over Bartlett, Jerry Hyatt would be a good choice for information on these programs.

Respectfully, RG.....

Did I just put a plug in for Bartlett.....

[Content1]

Been a while since I posted, this could be one of Marlins wrestling scenerio....

klsas gave you some very accurate and very usefull information, but it obviously doesn't meet your current mission!

There are currently hundreds of new juniors in what I'll call the Power Pool!  Their advantage is enrollment in one of the formalized training programs offered throught out the country.  Most are supported by some type of sponsorship program.  Some are actually being paid to attend these programs.  If you want to give your off spring an advantage and future in the industry, realize the competition and adapt as necessary.  From a business perspective, which individual do you want to hire?  The one who just completed 40 weeks of observed, verifiable, testable training in theory, physics, instrumentation, systems, chemistry and regulatory indoctrination, or the one who has 2000 hours at outages doing whatever?

This information wont help the current situation, but hopefully it will prevent a repeat in the future!

Before you piss all over Bartlett, Jerry Hyatt would be a good choice for information on these programs.

Respectfully, RG.....

Did I just put a plug in for Bartlett.....

If what your are saying could be true the we would have more reasons to be upset because Bartlett has made no effort to inform their loyal workers of such programs.  It makes no sense for them to ignore my daughter, who is one outage away from being a 1.8 senior to these "programs" of people who are college students who have no reason to stay in the field once the economy improves.   Show me the stats on how many of these people have made it through and are serving as 3.1's.  Who is paying for this 40 weeks of training?   Are they using stimulus money?   How motivated are they to stay in the program if you must pay their way, verses someone who has taken the initiative to train, pass the NUF and the Core on their own dime?  I cannot imagine this program would be so vast  as to be filling the jobs and Bartlett has not informed it loyal workers.   Eric, say it ain't so that you would hold out on your people?

[klsas]

I'll try one last effort here to explain. These college kids are not just any college kids. They are specifically training in the Nuclear Power Field. Some pay their own way and some get grants from the utilities and even Pell grants to go to school. When the economy improves, these people will not be jumping to other things as they are training specificallly for nuclear. The community college programs are very similar to the Navy training program without all the military bs. Get your book knowledge, learn how outages work with hands on and then graduate to a house position. Not all of them will become house right away, but the training will stay with them and as with all fields, some will work at Mickey D's.
Bartlett has not hidden this fact from any one. They have advertised for some programs that they have offered. Bartlett has pushed education for a long time for newer juniors. They are not recruiter's for the schools, so I don't see where it would benefit them to advertise for the schools. Bartlett's only function is to get the order from the utilities and fill it the best they can. If Batlett has 100 juniors in their pool and the utilities only request 50 juniors, someone isn't going to be happy. I'm not saying Bartlett is perfect, but they are a business just like DZA. By the way, it works the same for seniors. Bartlett will only hire as many as they have request's for. Wait until we have a short season and you will see that. (fall 2010).
I don't know if this helps, but it is all I'll say.

Keith

[Content1]

I'll try one last effort here to explain. These college kids are not just any college kids. They are specifically training in the Nuclear Power Field. Some pay their own way and some get grants from the utilities and even Pell grants to go to school. When the economy improves, these people will not be jumping to other things as they are training specifically for nuclear. The community college programs are very similar to the Navy training program without all the military BS. Get your book knowledge, learn how outages work with hands on and then graduate to a house position. Not all of them will become house right away, but the training will stay with them and as with all fields, some will work at Mickey D's.

I have a degree in computer science, and do not work in computers.   I have a 4 year degree as an elementary education, and I do not teach.  Worked for a time, then left.   I have had 2 years of law school, I became a paralegal for a time, then left the field.  I spent 6 years in the Navy as a Nuclear Machinst Mate.   I will admit my most valuable training was in the Navy, compared with all the "Book" learning I subsequently got.   The military may have BS in it, but those volunteers keep our country safe and the best get in the Navy and I would trust them with my fate over someone with just a 2 year college degree.  There is nothing that will keep someone in the Nuclear Field just because they got a technical degree, and it is usually 2 years.   If they obtain a 4 year degree in a science field, they waste there time as just an RP.  What I am saying is it is a mistake to discard the travelers so easily when their experience enriches our industry.

Bartlett has not hidden this fact from any one. They have advertised for some programs that they have offered. Bartlett has pushed education for a long time for newer juniors. They are not recruiter's for the schools, so I don't see where it would benefit them to advertise for the schools. Bartlett's only function is to get the order from the utilities and fill it the best they can. If Bartlett has 100 juniors in their pool and the utilities only request 50 juniors, someone isn't going to be happy. I'm not saying Bartlett is perfect, but they are a business just like DZA. By the way, it works the same for seniors. Bartlett will only hire as many as they have requests for. Wait until we have a short season and you will see that. (fall 2010).
I don't know if this helps, but it is all I'll say.

Keith

No, Bartlett or Atlantic or whomever do not have a duty to inform juniors they are about to be screwed out of jobs to be replaced by the interns.  They just have common sense that when you burn the bridges to these multi-talented travelers who are obviously self motivated the will go elsewhere maybe never to return.   They have a duty to their own survival to treat those who have been faithful to them or at tell them why the jobs are drying up.   Informing them through a "musical chairs" method and say, "Sorry no jobs this Spring, try again next Fall," is shortsighted and will only discourage the worker into other fields.   You won't get seniors from the air.   If they have such a nice supply, why do they still advertise for them nearly every day on Nukeworker?

[RAD-GHOST]

Those Bastards!

I'm finding it hard to believe that they didn't shut down all business until they personally contact you about the various technical schools available to the Health Physics trade!  Your reply to my posting, particuliarly the part that stated, "If what I'm saying is true", seems to be an obvious ploy to continue your Biotching!  Not that I would be the one to disect and individuals replies, but you are the only member who stated the actual length of these technical training programs, 2 years!  Obviously prior knowledge of these programs wouldn't fit your current Biotching venue.     

Seems that you are under the opinion that if someone wishes to pursues a career in Health Physics, in any way other then your experienced based model, isn't going to stay, isn't worth a damn because their book smart and should play second fiddel to your agenda!  Obviously being bias towards your children can be commended, but don't start bashing other individual and their path to opportunities because your trying to amplify your opinion!

By the way, pissing all over the various companies, recruiters and individual who offer replies and advice to your posting is guarenteed to provide one sure thing......

[Content1]

So what we're really talking about here is that you have a commitment problem,...... :

I have continuously worked since age 14, including 6 years running a small business and paying taxes, raising a family and caring for a disabled child for over 25 years.   To advance in life, sometimes you take a leap of faith and try to do something new, and yes, fail at times for the higher goal.   Abraham Lincoln failed 6 times in his life, failing in professions and losing campaigns until he became our 16 president.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the one who points out how the strong man stumbled or how the doer of deeds might have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."

Teddy Roosevelt

I stand in good company with my "commitment" problems.

[Content1]

Those Bastards!

I'm finding it hard to believe that they didn't shut down all business until they personally contact you about the various technical schools available to the Health Physics trade!  Your reply to my posting, particularly the part that stated, "If what I'm saying is true", seems to be an obvious ploy to continue your Biotching!  Not that I would be the one to dissect and individuals replies, but you are the only member who stated the actual length of these technical training programs, 2 years!  Obviously prior knowledge of these programs wouldn't fit your current Biotching venue.     

Seems that you are under the opinion that if someone wishes to pursues a career in Health Physics, in any way other then your experienced based model, isn't going to stay, isn't worth a damn because their book smart and should play second fiddle to your agenda!  Obviously being bias towards your children can be commended, but don't start bashing other individual and their path to opportunities because your trying to amplify your opinion!

By the way, pissing all over the various companies, recruiters and individual who offer replies and advice to your posting is guaranteed to provide one sure thing......

Please refer to my above quote from Teddy Roosevelt.
... so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."

Teddy Roosevelt

What you refer to as "bitching" I refer to a problem facing many in our industry and if you had read any of my posts to know I personally am doing fine.   I see a problem and rather then cower under a rock from fear that, "By the way, pissing all over the various companies, recruiters and individual who offer replies and advice to your posting is guaranteed to provide one sure thing......" I am letting people know we are on to them and fighting back.   

Nukeworkers need to stick together and when we are not getting work as a group, when we have done a good job, we must speak up and ask, 'WHY?"  If loyal travelers are being displaced without an opportunity to compete . . . that is wrong.   My original post was in response to a good worker finding himself sitting out this spring.  My 2 daughters, ditto.   I don't see how your personal attacks have helped the poor unemployed faithful workers.  I have since talked with others at Bartlett and found much of what I have said to be true.   There are less jobs this Spring for juniors and for no good reason short of the companies making fewer requests.   Why are the requests fewer must be asked and good workers deserve an answer.  (By the way, spelling checker on nukeworker is a good thing.  When I quoted you I fixed all of your spelling errors so you may not look so bad to the "recruiters, companies and individuals"  you are the spokesman for.)

[Content1]

Like Forrest Gump would say, "That is all I have to say about that." : 

[Content1]

The way they are proceeding is to confront the recruiters to do their job and say where the positions going.  Are we in a "let's not use juniors" phase, or is it truly from junior colleges.  If it is the former, then to get the word out to seniors to use their influence to double up with juniors as a package to get more junior brought it.   It has worked before.   I talk with the recruiters and convey our dismay which I hope they convey to the employers that many seniors travel with juniors and that is where they get their replacements for little cost.  Junior college programs, if subsidized by the industry cost tons of money and like all bean counters, the companies expect results.  Juniors who train and pass the NUF on their own cost them nothing once they are trained on the sites.   Juniors who travel with seniors have people they can get advice from.   It is a system that has worked for thousands of years, the senior experienced person training the junior.

If it is truly someone has a hairbrained scheme to favor college locals and subsidize them and ignore the junior pool, there are not enough house positions to handle the flood of people applying for utilities and when they do not either get the job or are cut the free market will fix that problem.   In spite of how great you may feel the junior college programs are, from a senior perspective, the subject matter is so slim most of the ex-navy could challege every test in a college program and pass, not saying much for the college.   If you have been to college, you know in the junior levels it is little more intense then high school.   Hardly something you wish to depend on if you are trying to rebuild and industry.

What is my strategy for them?   First, they have been very loyal to Bartlett and taken the trash positions where nobody else wanted on short notice.   They have a track record of dependability.   We will naturally use that to get at least some guilt going to insure they are doing their best.   Next, as a senior of many years, I have been helping them understand their job and all the small parts of it.   If Bartlett will not get them jobs, we expand to other recruiters to get their name out.   My oldest daughter is nearly a senior, maybe she will go for a long term position.   

If there are no opportunities, we go into something else but not without a fight.   We have time on our side and very patient.   If the college thing is unproductive, I will personally get involved if I have the evidence to let the companies know, I know how to research.   They are not monolithic beings stuck on their own destruction.  If other word, what will we do?   We will do what is necessary to help them, and if we help a whole lot of other juniors along the way, all the better.

[Already Gone]

I just couldn't hold it for another minute.  I am really sick of people feeling entitled to a job - any job.  For years, there has been this divide between those who have been educated in this field (mostly military folks) and those who have actual practical experience (mostly former deconners).  I have tried my best over the years to learn as much from the former deconners as I could.  On the other hand, only a few of those folks ever bothered to get any technical training.  Those who did, are the best techs ever, but the vast majority of RP techs who did not come out of the Navy or some other formal training program are the ones who CONSTANTLY complain about the requirements that they pass the NEU/NUF exam.
Not everyone who spent their workdays watching RP's work are automatically qualified to replace them.  Only the ones who ask a lot of questions and crack a book now and then become good techs.  The rest are no more than a rack to hang a meter on.  Usually, as soon as a deconner gets to be really good as a deconner, he becomes really useless as an RP instead.  One day, he's making a difference, the next day he can't do anything on his own.

So now, finally after all these years, someone is merging the two flowpaths.  Education and practical experience will be combined to make techs who are fully trained by education and experience to do this work.  The prayer has been answered!  Are you going to hear any bitching from the techs out there who came from the Navy or college?  Nope.  You're going to hear a lot of it from those who just lost their shortcut to a higher-paying job.  Listen to yourself.  What you are saying is "it's not fair that we have to compete with people who are more qualified than we are."

I'm going to say this for the hundredth time:  RP Tech is not and should not be the career progression from deconner.  If you are a good deconner, you ought to get paid well enough for it that you don't go looking to leave the job to become a Jr. RP.  Unfortunately, very few these days even get to the point of being a good deconner.  They're just putting in the time until they can get a Jr. Tech. spot somewhere.  Then, they put in the time to be a Sr. Tech.  Then, they stop trying altogether.
If you want to become an RP, it should take more than just having worked for Bartlett as a deconner until they get tired of hearing you ask for a JR. RP job.  Yes, loyalty is a great thing.  But is is not the same as being qualified.  About half of the current bunch of techs need to be plenty scared, because many of you got there the easy way and are not as good as you think you are.  If some kid out of technical school gets your job, you really have nobody to blame but yourself.

[stormgoalie]

THAT's gonna leave a mark,......

You are correct there, but I do believe that the response will be the equivalent of "It's just a flesh wound." as the message hits the shielding of a highly collimated opinion

[Already Gone]

Sorry man.  I hate doing this, because I know a lot of really great techs who came from the decon side.  I have to say what I think.  The current crop is NO WAY of the same caliber tech as those who went before them.  This sense of entitlement is crap.  The idea that Junior techs are getting trained on the job is crap.  If you can FIND one, he's probably mopping a floor, pulling laundry and trash, or stuck washing power visors somewhere.
We've been crying that nobody is doing anything to bring along the next generation of techs.  Now, somebody is doing it right, and the cry goes up "UNFAIR!"

I'd love to see the Sr. Techs try that BS about "pairing" with a Junior this fall.  I can hear it now.  " I don't go without my Jr. tech. (insert relationship here; son, girlfriend, ... etc.)"  Reply: "Then I guess you don't go.  I have sixty other seniors competing for 30 slots without trying to smuggle in a Junior."
That would certainly not be the first time it happens.  I'd doubt that any senior tech will sit out a whole season just because there are no junior spots for his nephew.

[Bonds 25]

"It makes no sense for them to ignore my daughter, who is one outage away from being a 1.8 senior"



She has A LONG WAY to go to being a senior if she is only one outage away from being an 1.8   

[spongerob27]

If anyone seems to feel like they should be canonized its BeerCourt. All day long we read your posts of your supremicy. Yuck!! You flip-flop and try to say some feel good things but the point is you feel superior to the people who work there way up. I am one of them. You bash Content1 for his feelings of his way is right. But you feel the same way but a different path. The path does not matter. The end result is the quality of the Tech. thats what matters. I have worked with many who have been in the industry since "the good old days", and I would not let them cover trash and laundry. And they have the same opinion as you. "The holy than thou attitude."

My advice Content1 tell those kids to keep there nose to grindstone. Take whatever they can get and be thankful. The last thing they want is to be ungrateful for the opportunities they are given when they are given. We all can complain about jobs at one time or another. But none of these outages last forever but your reputation will.

[Marlin]

If anyone seems to feel like they should be canonized its BeerCourt. All day long we read your posts of your supremicy. Yuck!! You flip-flop and try to say some feel good things but the point is you feel superior to the people who work there way up. I am one of them. You bash Content1 for his feelings of his way is right. But you feel the same way but a different path. The path does not matter. The end result is the quality of the Tech. thats what matters. I have worked with many who have been in the industry since "the good old days", and I would not let them cover trash and laundry. And they have the same opinion as you. "The holy than thou attitude."

My advice Content1 tell those kids to keep there nose to grindstone. Take whatever they can get and be thankful. The last thing they want is to be ungrateful for the opportunities they are given when they are given. We all can complain about jobs at one time or another. But none of these outages last forever but your reputation will.

"When you throw a rock in the pig pen it's the one you hit that squeals"

Do us a favor, try reading for comprehension, use the spell check, and contribute in a positive manner if possible. As hard a pill as it is to swallow Beercourt is right. No matter were a tech comes from the ones who have a combination of experience and training (even if self taught) are the ones who will and should succeed.

[spongerob27]

"When you throw a rock in the pig pen it's the one you hit that squeals"

Do us a favor, try reading for comprehension, use the spell check, and contribute in a positive manner if possible. As hard a pill as it is to swallow Beercourt is right. No matter were a tech comes from the ones who have a combination of experience and training (even if self taught) are the ones who will and should succeed.

Sounds like squealing!