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[You Have My Attention]

Mod, please remove.

[JustinHEMI05]

Where exactly have you read that MMs and EMs get the shaft as far as civilian ops goes? The fact is, MMs and EMs outnumber ETs on watch at my plant 10 to 1, and the place is run by ELTs. Your rate has absolutely nothing to do with it.

If you are doing 6 and out, don't count on instant SRO.

No, you will not qualify EOOW in 6 years. You are enlisting, so its barely in the realm of possibilities. You would have to be a talented operator, then go to prototype as staff, then bust your ass to get the privilege to qualify EOOW and become and ETA. Very few blue shirts get to do this.

What it boils down to is this; 6 and out = NLO except in some rare occasions, that someone will point out. But I warn you, they are the exception to the rule. In order to stand out among your peers applying for NLO, try to go to as many schools as you can, and qualify all that you can. Depending on you and your command, you may have a chance at EWS in that time.

The only way to qualify for instant SRO out of the Navy is to have 2 years as an RO or EWS/EOOW. The rest (the humanities/tesc degree) is just gravy.

Justin

PS The 2 years EWS is actual in rotation, on watch EWS. Not the going away gift EWS that a lot of people have. And trust me, your interviewers know the difference.

[JustinHEMI05]

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,17568.0.html

Also, this goes for all people getting into or out of the Navy, get this through your heads once and for all;

NLO is not entry level as compared to navy nuke. It is not beneath a Navy nuke.

What is true, is that every ex Navy nuke IS entry level, no matter what position they fill.

As far as staying in longer, no, it does you no good to stay in longer just to start as an instant SRO. You will make way more money, and advance much faster just getting out at 6 and starting as an NLO. And even if you stayed, there is no guarantee that you will achieve the quals necessary to qualify for instant SRO, then it is even more of a waste.

Look, I am not trying to discourage you. In fact, I admire that you are thinking ahead, but, it might just be too far ahead. You need to focus on getting through the pipeline first.

[Floydbob]

Then what would you consider an entry level position in an operations department of a civilian nuke plant?

[retired nuke]

Then what would you consider an entry level position in an operations department of a civilian nuke plant?

AO is the entry level position for Ops. A degree isn't required, and occasionally they hire someone off the street from non-nuclear (other power, other manufacturing)

True entry level (hired off the street out of high school) really doesn't exist in nuclear at the utility level. College, work experience, Navy, other military, etc will open doors. But frankly, right now, there are more candidates for every position than there are positions.

Janitor is most often a subcontractor (Servicemaster at my site) that doesn't even lead to decon. So, while many here like to throw the janitor label around, it won't get you in the door either...

[co60slr]

Say I have a BA degree in the Humanities from a first tier school

(1) Will being assigned to one rate over another bias my viability in Civilian OPS (for instance, I've read that MMs and EMs get 'the shaft' in this respect)?
(2) Even if I am not allowed to regularly stand watch as a Navy RO, will I be able to at least qualify for the tests (ex: PPWS, EWS) the Civilian industry requires for OPS in my 6y?
(3) I've read the ongoing story of one member of this forum who was an MM and qualified for the direct-SRO program--is this common for MMs and EMs? If I end up as an MM or EM, would doing an extended tour (9-at-sea) help rectify this and make me viable as an RO in the Civilian side?

A piece of paper that says "Arts" and "Humanities"...regardless of what school, won't do too much for you in the technical world.  However, as pointed out in other threads the ability to think, reason, and write clearly will get you far in any career.
1. There is no rate better than the other.  If you're not mechanically-inclined but end up as a mechanic, then you're going to be miserable.  The process works...trust it.
2. You have a conceptual error with this point.  Just taking the tests is not enough.  The NRC requires a direct SRO candidate to have several years of STANDING THE WATCH (i.e., nuclear supervisory experience).  (Oh, and your CO signing your qual card as you leave the Sub/Ship no longer works either...FYI).
3. I've heard Training Managers grab that ex-MMs seem to do well in the civilian SRO programs; however, I've never seen official stats.   I wouldn't worry about what your title can do for you in commercial operations, I'd worry about my own ability and energy to complete the program.

The tone of your post seems to suggest that getting "rubber stamps" on your resume is going to help you.   "First tier school", one rate over the other, etc.   Let me tell you with 110% certainty that "titles" and "degrees" don't get you promoted.   What you DO in those roles is what managers are most curious about.  Can you solve problems?  Can you get the job done?  When told to do something do you do 80% or 120%?   Give 80% consistently and you'll find no degree matters at all.

You can plan as far ahead as you like.  What else do you have to do while waiting for the bus to leave for Bootcamp?  <grin>  However, be ready at all times for an opportunity to knock...almost always when you don't expect it, and almost always not what you planned for.   I'll boast a bit on a very successful/rewards 20+ career as enlisted and officer; however, nothing went as planned, but I ALWAYS gave my best and jumped through that door when opportunity knocked!

If you give less than 100% to your current job/situation then when that opportunity comes along...you may find someone saying..."Eh...he's not ready yet" and then move on to the next person.  I've seen people sit in a cushy chair with a nice desk title holder...doing essentially nothing.  Darwin rewards well...eventually.

Good luck!

[co60slr]

I would tend to think that varies from corporation to corporation and work structure to work structure. Union, non-union and a lot of things can come to influence what "entry level" is. I could be wrong but an intern or co-op at D*** Energy may be asked to help with housekeeping. IIRC a "No, I'm an engineering candidate" response is usually countered with something akin to "Not at D*** you're not."

At my company, the Site VP leads by example and expects everyone to act as a team.  I don't think I've ever seen him walk to his car and NOT pick up some small piece of trash left in the parking lot.  Likewise, as a former submariner...no one has to "tell me" to pick up a piece of trash left on the floor regardless of my title, their title, union, non-union, who's watching me, who isn't, etc.

If you think you're better than the "Janitors", who are making a fraction of what a NLO makes, and who are occasionally threatened with "budget cuts" and "layoffs" while doing a largely thankless job, then you have no appreciation for what YOU have and are probably the first to start whining when that janitor is laid off or has his contract cut.  Many of the janitors at my site are genuine, sincere people trying to feed their families, but do so with a frequent "hello, how are you today" as we all flock to our next meeting.  I did my time as a "janitor" (i.e., thankless entry level job)...and my hope is that every high school graduate has to fight his/her way up the ranks a bit and "do their time".  It's the starting point to learning a fleeting trait in the 21st century:  humility.

"Entry-Level" is not a dirty word...it's reality, but be careful how you use it.  It's not a professional status that needs to be used to your NLOs as a means of saying "hey, keep it up and soon you'll be as good as me".   NLOs are VERY hard working, knowledgable people that will likely save your butt one day (and hopefully the SRO will save his/her if needed).  (Better stated by the Forum's newest SRO:  Justin).  In fact, I hope to hear from Justin in a few years how he had taken a few NLOs under his wing, mentored them through GFES, and helped some of them into his Control Room as a licensed operator.  I hope to hear from that NLO that posts on here, "hey this ex-Navy guy came in, kicked butt on licensing, and then turned about to help ME get a license too!!!)  If those of you poking at ex-Navy junior officers and Chiefs as "janitors" did that then there wouldn't be such an industry demand for navy nuclear supervisory experience.  Meanwhile, since you're not adequately mentoring the junior, unlicensed operators, your corporate nuclear managers ARE actively seeking ex-Navy nukes to be SROs...regardless of the personal opinion, sometimes laden with a hint of disgruntled "FTN" that gets posted here.

Personally, I continue to cringe every time that word (janitor) is used in this forum.  It's condescending, unprofessional of us as a community, and it only serves to show the thousands of silent, anonymous visitors to this very well-known Forum that there are some disgruntled "old men" that have nothing better to do than to pick on someone that doesn't know any better.

[Nuclear NASCAR]

I'll jump in on this from a strictly civilian point and my particular plant point of view.  NLO, AO, EO,OT, whatever your plant calls the people who make the rounds for operations in the field is entry level at many plants these days.  At my plant it's the only way to get hired off the street without a technical degree in a craft.  There is hope that an apprenticeship program for the crafts will rise from the dead but at this point hope is all it is.  Therefore, at many places NLO IS entry level as has been probably pointed out better than I'm now doing.

A point I actually found amusing when I transferred to my plant about 12 years ago was that the janitorial position was no longer called Janitor.  Some of the janitors petitioned the Union to change it to Nuclear Utility Worker at the contract negotiations.  At that point, relocating due to job cuts, I didn't really care what my job title was, just tell me where to clean. 

[retired nuke]

Personally, I continue to cringe every time that word (janitor) is used in this forum.  It's condescending, unprofessional of us as a community, and it only serves to show the thousands of silent, anonymous visitors to this very well-known Forum that there are some disgruntled "old men" that have nothing better to do than to pick on someone that doesn't know any better.

Thanks for saying it. You raise my standards....

[JustinHEMI05]

Then what would you consider an entry level position in an operations department of a civilian nuke plant?

The point is, it isn't BENEATH a Navy nuke to be an NLO.

[Smooth Operator]

I don't think its the fact that NLO is in itself entry-level, which it is in the context of Nuclear Operations, but what I think Justin takes issue with is the connotation itself of NLO as compared to RO or SRO.

There is no need to think of NLO/AO/AUO/EO as beneath a Navy nuke's ability. I am an NLO and a Navy Nuke and I learn something new every shift I stand.

Its a great place to learn the plant without the hassles of the licensing program and decide if there is a bright future ahead in nuclear operations without the commitements of license training.

...and its a great way to make lots of money wearing a t-shirt and jeans to work!!

[JustinHEMI05]

Smooth Operator that is what I am trying to say. He said something along the lines of he would be happy to start at entry level. It just seems to me that a lot of 6 and outers think they are entitled to start somewhere else, or that NLO is somehow beneath them. What I am trying to say is NLO is a step up for Navy nuke, and although can be considered a starting point in ops, it isn't entry level. I am an SRO, but I am an entry level SRO. Sure I have the same license as a guy that has held it for 20 years, but I by no means, have the experience, knowledge, or responsibility (or paycheck) he has when I get on shift. That is the point I am trying to make. Even starting as an SRO, you are still entry level as an ex navy nuke going the direct route.

The important point I am trying to make is that NLO isn't beneath an ex Navy nuke, especially a 6 and outer as that is all they are qualified for.

[xobxdoc]

Calvert hires operators off the street sometimes. You have to know someone on the inside and pass the POSS. They would start off as a lavel 1 where exnavy would be a level 3 and fully qualified is level 5

[hamsamich]

yes i'd like to second that.  NLO  IS IS IS (normally) Entry level in ops.  As a matter of fact the only 2 places I've worked/talked to about working stressed this fact and made sure I wanted to go to the control room (yuck) as soon as possible.  They (ops manager and control room supervisor type people) said NLO was entry level and my progression path must at least lead to control room operator or higher eventually or I could be put out of ops or even fired.  I just want to make sure people reading this post don't misunderstand.  I've seen some bad info put out on these forums that may confuse people due to grinding an ax and not answering the question or giving info based on one plant's views.  Maybe there are some places where NLO is not considered an entry level position, but not at the place I worked as an operator and not the other place I had a phone conversation with and declined an interview.  So to put it out there in big red letters like it is set in stone is just not good. That being said, I bet there are SOME places that don't mind if you come in and just want to be a NLO for the rest of your career, but there are probably not that many for obvious control room staffing reasons.  can you start at an even lower operations paygrade/position and even work your way up to NLO?  yes, but not all plants have this.  but it does exist.  operations helper, or something like that is what they call it.  and some plants want to hire from in-house postions like "site services" or similar for operations.

[JustinHEMI05]

yes i'd like to second that.  NLO  IS IS IS (normally) Entry level in ops.  As a matter of fact the only 2 places I've worked/talked to about working stressed this fact and made sure I wanted to go to the control room (yuck) as soon as possible.  They (ops manager and control room supervisor type people) said NLO was entry level and my progression path must at least lead to control room operator or higher eventually or I could be put out of ops or even fired.  I just want to make sure people reading this post don't misunderstand.  I've seen some bad info put out on these forums that may confuse people due to grinding an ax and not answering the question or giving info based on one plant's views.  Maybe there are some places where NLO is not considered an entry level position, but not at the place I worked as an operator and not the other place I had a phone conversation with and declined an interview.  So to put it out there in big red letters like it is set in stone is just not good. That being said, I bet there are SOME places that don't mind if you come in and just want to be a NLO for the rest of your career, but there are probably not that many for obvious control room staffing reasons.  can you start at an even lower operations paygrade/position and even work your way up to NLO?  yes, but not all plants have this.  but it does exist.  operations helper, or something like that is what they call it.  and some plants want to hire from in-house postions like "site services" or similar for operations.

Good, point, I will change it. But again, I am simply trying to stress that NLO IS NOT beneath a Navy Nuke. That is all I am really getting at.

[JustinHEMI05]

I'm really not sure how much of this now-tense discussion is because of what I said, but I would like to just repeat what I said originally, nearly word-for-word:

-"I am in no way opposed to entry-level work [i.e., NLO/AO/Janitor-With-Aspirations]."
-"I would be happy to do that sort of work."

Thank you, and sorry for the misunderstanding!

Naw its not you. Its just what we do here, bicker about everything Navy to commercial related. 

I do admire your attitude through all of it. Thank you for your future service.

[JustinHEMI05]

Ah great!!!!!!!

Now I'll have to make the big green letters go away too,....

Sorry to inconvenience you, sir. 

[Zog]

Thinking outside the nuclear plant box a little. I was a 9 year nuke (EM1(SS)) and after several interviews at nuke plants I ended up in the electrical power system testing industry www.netaworld.org , which is full of ex-navy nukes. I would say over half of the industry is either nukes or Army prime power guys.

We love nukes because even though they don't know much about what we do you can teach a nuke just about anything besides common sense (The door says "pull"). Theory yes, better than EE's, but experience not so much outside of OI-55(62) testing. The strong theory background is the basis for everything we need to teach them.

The company I work for recently hired a new EE, found out after he was one of my students at MARF, small world.