Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake

[Marvin]

I just heard a news report (FoxNews, our best and brightest) that Secretary of State Clinton stated that we will be sending coolant.  Not sure of the veracity of the report, but it sounds like they must need lots of coolant over there.

[Rennhack]

Japan is an island... aren't they surrounded by coolant?

[MacGyver]

Japan is an island... aren't they surrounded by coolant?

I scratched my head too.  I heard about fires at the plants this morning but then I read this article.  Vogtle 1&2 comes to mind (e.g. the only site emer ever declared in the USofA, iirc).  In that scenario a loss of emer power (i.e. the diesel) with no off-site power.  Bad, Bad, Bad.  You know synonymous with "un-good".

[HydroDave63]

  Vogtle 1&2 comes to mind (e.g. the only site emer ever declared in the USofA, iirc).  In that scenario a loss of emer power (i.e. the diesel) with no off-site power.  Bad, Bad, Bad.  You know synonymous with "un-good".

wah shoooooot, we'll jus' boot-strap off that there De-cay Heat. Should be back at 7% power in no time a-tall

[btkeele]

This just in...Hillary is sending 100 cases of prestone over....

It's funny that even Fox news just repeated this same thing... just
goes to show you how clueless the media is about nuclear power.. LOL
You would think that they could get someone on there that has a clue...

[MacGyver]

This just in...Hillary is sending 100 cases of prestone over....

It's funny that even Fox news just repeated this same thing... just
goes to show you how clueless the media is about nuclear power.. LOL
You would think that they could get someone on there that has a clue...

This is the media on anything technical

[drayer54]

The solution to all problems. The hope for change and the change for hope. It doesn't get much better than this....

[debib]

I was watching President Obama's talk today on NBC and one of the reporters asked
the President if we were going to help Japan by sending coolant over to them
as soon as possible.  He sounded as if he believed that we do need to send coolant.

[drayer54]

I was watching President Obama's talk today on NBC and one of the reporters asked
the President if we were going to help Japan by sending coolant over to them
as soon as possible.  He sounded as if he believed that we do need to send coolant.

To be fair, he couldn't just call her a dumbass and move on. He also couldn't exactly give her a lesson either in the format.
And if you think that he is going to be personally involved in this.... Not so much. This does however provide a good indication of public
knowledge on reactors and show how large the biggest enemy of nuclear expansion (ignorance) really is. But seriously, what coolant did we send?
Is this also an indication of just how steep the bs they feed us on the news really is?

[Cycoticpenguin]

Japan is an island... aren't they surrounded by coolant?

lots and lots of salty coolant

anyway. This is a strange article. Guy seems to take both sides of the fence in one go

http://www.counterpunch.org/alvarez03112011.html

Obviously he has no clue what he's speaking about. But a mostly objective article.

[debib]

Hello Drayer54,

That makes sense about the President not being able to just call her a 'dumbass' but
I do wish people would learn a bit more about nuclear power and relax a little.

[Pman52]

lots and lots of salty coolant

anyway. This is a strange article. Guy seems to take both sides of the fence in one go

http://www.counterpunch.org/alvarez03112011.html

Obviously he has no clue what he's speaking about. But a mostly objective article.

Hmm...he must have spent 15 minutes on google searching for information for this article.

"However, because of the reactor remains at a very high temperature, radiation levels are rising on the turbine building – forcing to plant operators to vent radioactive steam into the environment."  

And then he goes on to say that at least the Japanese plants have concrete/steel containments that can prevent the release of radioactivity.     Whats the turbine building have to do with the release of radiation?!

Dont the Japanese use PWRs similar to ours over here in the states?

[Cycoticpenguin]

Hmm...he must have spent 15 minutes on google searching for information for this article.

"However, because of the reactor remains at a very high temperature, radiation levels are rising on the turbine building – forcing to plant operators to vent radioactive steam into the environment."  

And then he goes on to say that at least the Japanese plants have concrete/steel containments that can prevent the release of radioactivity.    Whats the turbine building have to do with the release of radiation?!

Dont the Japanese use PWRs similar to ours over here in the states?

Most of their plants are BWR's, the one in question is a BWR.

edit: so yeah, a turbine can have a LOT to do with releasing radiation

that said, dont they have their SRV's vented to a torus? I dont see the issues here. Why do they feel the need to vent to atmosphere?

[Pman52]

Most of their plants are BWR's, the one in question is a BWR.

Makes sense then.  I was under the impression they were using plants similar in design to ours from the light-water reactor standpoint.  I've only caught a small glimpse of the news on these events. 

Knowing now that this is a BWR plant, I can see where it is vital they get the "prestone" into the core pronto...

[Pman52]

edit: so yeah, a turbine can have a LOT to do with releasing radiation

Yes sir indeed.  I shouldn't have assumed.  Makes me look like the danged media...

[Cycoticpenguin]

Makes sense then.  I was under the impression they were using plants similar in design to ours from the light-water reactor standpoint.  I've only caught a small glimpse of the news on these events. 

Knowing now that this is a BWR plant, I can see where it is vital they get the "prestone" into the core pronto...

yeah

Im still not understanding why they need to vent to atmosphere though. From what I can tell they have a bwr 6

[Pman52]

yeah

Im still not understanding why they need to vent to atmosphere though. From what I can tell they have a bwr 6

Suppression pool (Torus) is at too high of a pressure?  Venting to atm to help reduce the amount of water in the Torus?    

[HydroDave63]

yeah

Im still not understanding why they need to vent to atmosphere though. From what I can tell they have a bwr 6

Another plant you didn't license on?

Think about it, volume of torus vs. BTUs from decay heat. At some point you need a larger heat rejection volume.

[Cycoticpenguin]

Suppression pool (Torus) is at too high of a pressure?  Venting to atm to help reduce the amount of water in the Torus?    

Im really waiting for mr smarty pants to come and explain everything. To my understanding, the suppression pool is designed to accomodate all SRV's lifting, as well as provide LPCS and HPCS source water, with backups from condensate storage if need be. Wondering if their plant doesnt have a RCIC....?

some peice this together for me, im getting a headache from using cryptic information from media. So far I've seen wild ranges from simple failure of EDG's to massive piping failures in the coolant system.

Another plant you didn't license on?

Think about it, volume of torus vs. BTUs from decay heat. At some point you need a larger heat rejection volume.

No thats why its giving me a headache From system design stuff on our BWR 6, the suppression pool accomodates all those things, and we run the RCIC pump off it as well.

edit: and couldnt you just use the massive CST to use as a surge volume for expansion???

[Pman52]

Where's our BWR master when we need him?  Broadzilla, we need your assistance please!

[HydroDave63]

No thats why its giving me a headache From system design stuff on our BWR 6, the suppression pool accomodates all those things, and we run the RCIC pump off it as well.

So much for the subtle hints then....they just had a frickin' 8.9...think they have offsite power? Would the drive-by media be able to accurately describe "one diesel generator failed to start"? Maybe some failed snubbers and pipe supports allowing piping failures in suppression pool cooling? All we have are a few ephemeral wisps of half-wrong information coming from an anti-nuclear press that worships Twitterbaters and Facebook stalkers. Since the Japanese don't have either of those quantities on-site, the media has to resort to:

" GAH-ZIRRRAH !!! "

[Cycoticpenguin]

So much for the subtle hints then....they just had a frickin' 8.9...think they have offsite power? Would the drive-by media be able to accurately describe "one diesel generator failed to start"? Maybe some failed snubbers and pipe supports allowing piping failures in suppression pool cooling? All we have are a few ephemeral wisps of half-wrong information coming from an anti-nuclear press that worships Twitterbaters and Facebook stalkers. Since the Japanese don't have either of those quantities on-site, the media has to resort to:

" GAH-ZIRRRAH !!! "

hahaha

RCIC doesnt use electrical power. they have their bat-trees runnin, and I dont see why they need to vent to atmosphere yet. Piping failures would be the only real explanation that I can think of. Waiting for the licensees to chime in.

[Frankie Love]

The United State is rushing coolant to a Japanese nuclear reactor whose cooling system failed after a power outage caused by Friday's massive earthquake off northeastern Japan.

Speaking at the White House Friday, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said U.S. Air Force planes were carrying "some really important coolant" to the Fukushima Daiichi plant.

Japan's nuclear safety agency said pressure inside one of six boiling water reactors at the plant had risen to 1.5 times the level considered normal.

To reduce the pressure, Japanese authorizes will release slightly radioactive vapor. The agency said the radioactive element in the vapor will not affect the environment or human health.

The nuclear reactor failure triggered evacuation orders for about 3,000 residents as the government declared its first-ever state of emergency at a nuclear plant.

Neil Sheehan, a spokesman for the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, said staff were trying to collect more information on what was happening.

"They are busy trying to get coolant to the core area," Sheehan said. "The big thing is trying to get power to the cooling systems."

President Obama said he asked Energy Secretary Steven Chu to provide any assistance necessary.

Speaking at a news conference Friday, he added that he told Chu to "also to make sure that if in fact there have been breaches in this safety system on these nuclear plants that they're dealt with right away."

David Albright, a former weapons inspector for the United Nations, told Fox News that when a nuclear reactor is safely shut down, there is still a lot of radioactive material in the core that produces heat.

"If you don't extract that heat with cool water, it can reach a point where it can melt the fuel," he said. "It's an urgent matter to get the cool water flowing through the reactor."

After the quake triggered a power outage, a backup generator also failed and the cooling system was unable to supply water to cool the 460-megawatt No. 1 reactor, though at least one backup cooling system is being used. The reactor core remains hot even after a shutdown.

The agency said plant workers are scrambling to restore cooling water supply at the plant but there is no prospect for immediate success.

If the outage in the cooling system persists, eventually radiation could leak out into the environment, and, in the worst case, could cause a reactor meltdown, a nuclear safety agency official said on condition of anonymity, citing sensitivity of the issue.

But Albright said that risk appeared to be "very small from the available reporting."

"But nonetheless, you can still have a buildup of radioactive gas, and you can have a buildup of pressure," he said. "Sometimes they want to release that pressure by venting, perhaps a containment dome."

Another official at the nuclear safety agency, Yuji Kakizaki, said that plant workers were cooling the reactor with a secondary cooling system, which is not as effective as the regular cooling method.

Kakizaki said officials have confirmed that the emergency cooling system -- the last-ditch cooling measure to prevent the reactor from the meltdown -- is intact and could kick in if needed.

"That's as a last resort, and we have not reached that stage yet," Kakizaki added.

He said both the state of emergency and evacuation order are meant to be a precaution.

"We launched the measure so we can be fully prepared for the worst scenario," he said. "We are using all our might to deal with the situation."

Defense Ministry official Ippo Maeyama said the ministry has dispatched dozens of troops trained for chemical disasters to the Fukushima plant in case of a radiation leak, along with four vehicles designed for use in atomic, biological and chemical warfare.

High-pressure pumps can temporarily cool a reactor in this state with battery power, even when electricity is down, according to Arnold Gundersen, a nuclear engineer who used to work in the U.S. nuclear industry. Batteries would go dead within hours but could be replaced.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

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[War Eagle]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/11/AR2011031103673.html

[JustinHEMI05]

If they lost all power, and the ability to use hpci/rcic, then they would have blown down the reactor to the suppression pool by now. Assuming they also lost power to containment cooling and sprays, is the only reason I could see them venting to atmosphere.

Since it appears they've lost all power, they are no doubt into the T-200s for venting. The reactor should be 2/3rds covered, at least, and down near 50-150 pounds if they are anything like ours... meaning safe. Decay heat is also much less than 1% by now.

Of course, this is also assuming they have TRIPS similar to ours.

A loss of all offsite power was one of my fortes at Peach Bottom, but admittedly, an earthquake throws a wrench into the works that isn't often covered over in my neck of the woods. However, there would have to be A LOT of things go wrong that would prevent them from keeping the reactor depressurized right now. That is why it is my wager that the reactor is fine, and that containment is their concern. Again though, I don't know what they have in the way of say.. diesel driven fire pumps or back up nitrogen to ADS. The media keeps saying reactor pressure though, which means a lot of thing would have to go wrong. Besides a loss of power, they would have had to lose nitrogen to their ADS valves, which require no power to operate. If there is one thing you should be able to always do at a BWR, its blow the reactor down to the suppression feature. So not knowing exactly what they have/don't have, or that what the media is saying is accurate, there really is no way to tell. I am just trying to think about what I'd be doing if I was back at Peach Bottom and this happened.

One thing I do know is that I would love to be in their control room right now.