Navy application/MEPS/Security Clearance

[Cycoticpenguin]

Here is a recruiter that won't fib to ya and only takes recruits that can pass PRT

Chest i fala !!

im utterly speechless.


where in gods name did you find this haha

[HydroDave63]

but did you click the link to read the thread behind it? 

[Cycoticpenguin]

but did you click the link to read the thread behind it? 

no. The creepy dude singing threw me off. That was enough for me

but since you insist...

[MM1 subnuke]

Everybody lies, the only difference is knowing when to lie and when not to.  If you say you don't ever lie, you are just lying to yourself.

[Styrofoam]

Everybody lies, the only difference is knowing when to lie and when not to.  If you say you don't ever lie, you are just lying to yourself.

While I do get a kick out of watching you try to justify your behavior, it makes me sad knowing you'll never accomplish this feat.

The difference is I don't encourage you to lie so I don't take the chance of having to sign up someone else and end up wrecking your career in the Navy, eventually. Not to mention, if you withhold something and get in, you could get yourself or someone else killed. But you'd never encourage someone to lie about something that might get them hurt or killed, right? I bet you're a doctor and you know all about what it would take for some past affliction that's no longer in any medical records to come back and bite someone in the butt. Right?

Anyway, I realize the getting killed scenario is extreme, but I think it makes my point and I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.

[Captain America]

Everybody lies, the only difference is knowing when to lie and when not to.  If you say you don't ever lie, you are just lying to yourself.

Speak for yourself.

[andrewnavy]

For the almost 3 decades I have "graced" the earth with my presence , I have learned that you will get yourself in way more hot water if you always tell the truth.  Saying that, I tell the truth unless my wife asks me a fat question or something like that and even then my lying in that case is more of a less blunt truth.  It also makes life more interesting when someone asks you a question and they expect you to tell them what they want to hear and then you tell them the truth. 

MM1 SUBNUKE
I find it really upsetting that the recruiter advocates lying from the onset of a kid making the decision to want to join the service (my recruiter advocated lying also).  News flash, if you cant find people to fill the requirements don't encourage others to lie to make your numbers.  If all the recruiters were honest and there were not enough people coming in, then the bigwigs would be forced change the recruiting policies to make the recruiting goal.  It turns out that they will have a retention problem if the recruiting is slumping.  Lying is a way to make that job easier (which I am sure that job is hard and sucks) but by taking the easy way out you prolong the problem.  The navy as we all know is about numbers (metrics), they do not care about anything until the numbers don't add up.  It turns out that if you lie and keep making the numbers then they never get the point of what is happening to get those numbers (IE making recruiters go above and beyond what they should have to do).  They cant fire everyone if all of you guys were being honest.  I will say that your posts do not put your integrity in a very good light. 

Note to all:  I find it hard to believe that everyone has not lied about something at some point, unless there is some written age of accountability that I missed somewhere.

[drayer54]

I've witnessed a lot of integrity problem type stuff and have a resume of first hand experience on how this can be a game changer. I've witnessed my khaki wearing management/leadership in dress uniform to explain themselves and then a whole signifigant chunk of them not return to work shortly thereafter. I have learned that going with the bad trend, no matter how long it has been in place, can knock your feet right out from under you with a quickness. Whats normal and the status quo may not always be right. Andrews post may be a bit ideal, but it is right. What bothers me is the gross lack of respect for these young candidates that is shown by having them tell fibs to get in. I would have to think working in this enviroment and in this manner for a long perdiod of time would be hard to recover from....  Also, do you really think you are going to sway these people??!!?!?!?

[andrewnavy]

I guess it does sound ideal.  I was merely saying that if you insist on putting the actual numbers in front of decision makers and everyone is honest, then the decision makers would be forced to confront the issue thattthey already know exists but choose to turn a blind eye to. (pretty sure that was a run-on sentence)

[Cycoticpenguin]

"Everybody lies" -> House


I am willing to concede everyone will lie at some point. As he stated, if you think you havent lied, you are most likely lying to yourself. However, there's the nature and intent behind the lie....


We have all provided our lip service and stood on our soap boxes, it's time to move on




Andrew -> No one will die if so and so lies on their entrance paper work. The point is, its not up to the recruiters to pick and choose which rules to follow, even if they do, which is erroneous.

[GNowakowski]

Just thought I'd add my current experience.

I was instructed to lie by my recruiter.  *Recruiter* informed me that because I had never been caught using drugs (Marijuana) that I didn't need to admit to having used it while in High-School.  I let *recruiter* know that I can't do that, and that if I'm asked I will tell the truth.   *Recruiter* said not to worry-nobody will ask besides *recruiter*.  

My recruiter made an oops.  *Recruiter*'s apparent leadership visited on a day I was at the office.  *Recruiter* had tried to get me to come by a day later; and now I know why.  *Recruiter*'s leadership is a MM Nuke-and upon meeting me was very excited to talk about several things.  The MM-Nuke leadership asked a few direct questions; which I refused to lie as previously instructed by *recruiter*.  Needless to say, I could definitely feel some tension in the room-accompanied with what I think was much disappointment.  MM Nuke informed me what waivers were needed, and informed me that he had some say-so in getting waivers expedited-and said I had nothing to worry about.

*Recruiter* is being re-stationed to Sparks, NV.  and MM Nuke informed me of several resources to accompany any information presented to me from *recruiter* from now-on.  I very much appreciated this, but it goes to show that the problem is not intolerable-else moving the recruiter to Sparks, NV. wouldn't be an appropriate course of action (I wouldn't think).  

This does however present a lesson to any recruiter who thinks outright lying to your recruits is ok-especially Nuke-Wannabe's.... if we're smart enough to get into the pipeline (hopefully I'm in that category ) we just may be smart enough to know soil from sh!t.
...oh yeah...and your boss might not be happy with you!  - but the most important lesson of all:
I have high expectations of whats coming, so I must toe a line of high expectations.   
...recruiters should uphold this line.

-Glen
Edit:Add:  I have used *recruiter* to ensure I don't supply to much information as to the identity of the person in question (small populated area; wouldn't be hard to discover who is in my region for some of you)

[HydroDave63]

1. Andrew -> No one will die if so and so lies on their entrance paper work.

2. The point is, its not up to the recruiters to pick and choose which rules to follow, even if they do, which is erroneous.

1. Think undisclosed epilepsy during swim test, or undisclosed epi-pen level peanut allergy recruit comes in contact with peanut butter-stained uniform in barracks during laundry sorting. Low odds but still KIA possible. -0.7 

2. Truth! +1.0    upgrade

[Cycoticpenguin]

1. Think undisclosed epilepsy during swim test, or undisclosed epi-pen level peanut allergy recruit comes in contact with peanut butter-stained uniform in barracks during laundry sorting. Low odds but still KIA possible. -0.7 

2. Truth! +1.0    upgrade

touche sir

You know what I meant though! 

[andrewnavy]

CM

I get the point, I was just ruffling feathers.
I had a guy in my boot camp lie about the fact he was terribly allergic to wool.  He bypassed the wool blanket issue but he did not know his dress blues were oh about 100% wool.  Needless to say he put them on, swole up, passed out, and hit his head during the fall.  It was pretty funny but in that case he could have died.  He was subsequently discharged.

[Captain America]

"Everybody lies" -> House


I am willing to concede everyone will lie at some point. As he stated, if you think you havent lied, you are most likely lying to yourself. However, there's the nature and intent behind the lie....

We have all provided our lip service and stood on our soap boxes, it's time to move on




Andrew -> No one will die if so and so lies on their entrance paper work. The point is, its not up to the recruiters to pick and choose which rules to follow, even if they do, which is erroneous.

In a professional capacity, No they/we don't.  So, I do not agree with your or the premise of MM1 subnuke.  If you prescribe to that mode of operation please refer to this post ...

Sure hope you aren't recruitng anymore, and not standing watch in one of my plants ever again.

When guys like you, the first navy person a kid sees, advocates lying, the foundation is laid that lying, when you need to, is A-ok.

And we wonder why we have integrity problems in the fleet.  The picture is becoming more clear.

Cheers,
GC
Suck it up and do the job that you chose to do.

If you are still operating a nuclear reactor and subscribe to the "everyone lies" premise then please exit stage left.

[Cycoticpenguin]

In a professional capacity, No they/we don't.  So, I do not agree with your or the premise of MM1 subnuke.  If you prescribe to that mode of operation please refer to this post ...

If you are still operating a nuclear reactor and subscribe to the "everyone lies" premise then please exit stage left.

I would appreciate it if you would read my posts before making bold assumptions about me.

[GNowakowski]

Gentlemen,

lets remember that our words here will last - unless we are so profane that they must be swept aside.  With this in mind we should be aware that what we say here is not for ourselves alone.  Perhaps whats missing is outside perspective, although I think you both can see this yourselves.  Its time to concede the accuracy of one another's thoughts.

Charlie Murphy and others have a very good point.  Those who are not ready to admit there mistakes, especially past dishonesty-don't belong in any situation where the utmost safety is demanded.  As such, not answering to these mistakes is dangerous and unacceptable.  We each have our flaws, and thats why growth is so important-we must bear down on these flaws with strength and disallow them from effecting our behavior.

Captain America has a very good point.  Those who discount the honesty of others are also dangerous to any operation demanding safety.  If you can't, or refuse to trust those working around you, then you weaken the entire group.  A chain is made strong because each link trusts the next link, it doesn't believe that the next link might just break under the pressure-that it might not make it-that it might not be valuable.  This would be a very weak chain.  Dependency on one another is of course absolutely mandatory for success. 

Refusing to admit our mistakes-makes us weak. 
Refusing to trust one another-makes us weak.
As a group, neither are acceptable.

I believe that each of you fully understand both of these principles.  Its time to concede that each of you have a point-battle lines need not be drawn in the hopes of separating an issue which is interdependent.  Having the strength to admit your mistakes is almost always met with respect.  Some will try to dodge this for the discomfort of it.  Having the strength to trust one another builds a team-and is the only way that strong links become an unbreakable chain.

I appreciate both of you outlining these mandatory principles of behavior.

Back to the topic at hand:
Today I was asked to write up a hand-written report on my drug use, and my traffic tickets.  I haven't begun writing my finished copies, but have started outlining why these things occurred.  In these writings I've had to do both of the things mentioned above.  I'm doing some research on writing waivers on this site now...
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,22421.0.html
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,17857.0.html
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,14764.0.html
and many more... 
What I haven't found is any information regarding the acceptable position in this.  Should it be a 10 pager?  A thesis?
Or a short "I was bad...I wish I wasn't, but I was...I'm over it-the past was a great learning experience that will never be repeated" 

Any response is greatly appreciated in this regard. 


-Glen

[Styrofoam]

My nuke waivers were academic, but I did the "Yes, I did something dumb, here's what I learned." thing and they loved it.

Oh, and mine were pretty short. One was even on just one of those pages they give you. I figure they have enough crap to read and if you can tell your story without dragging it out, they'll appreciate it. However, this is all just speculation.

[MM1 subnuke]

To the OP, when all is said and done and you get in, congrats.  This will be my last post on this topic since every time I try and give my 2 cents it seems to be met with, well, lets call it discouragement by others.  I will say this, regardless of what I did or what others do in the tour as a recruiter I will say this for them, without the decision's they make (as a whole) there would not be able bodies to give those out on patrols the much needed breaks in tour.  With that said, basing on others logic, if all recruiters went by the recruitman, tours of duty would be longer, more people would be getting out at the end of their first tour, and the requirements (asvab and so forth) would have to be lowered just like in the army for the more abled bodies to get in.  Think about that the next time you want to get on your soap box and tell a recruiter (past or present) how to do their jobs the "right" way.

[HydroDave63]

if all recruiters went by the recruitman, tours of duty would be longer, more people would be getting out at the end of their first tour, and the requirements (asvab and so forth) would have to be lowered just like in the army for the more abled bodies to get in.  Think about that the next time you want to get on your soap box and tell a recruiter (past or present) how to do their jobs the "right" way.

Or NAVSEA would only recruit Nukes and SpecOps, and washouts would then go to all the other topsider/coner rating A schools, and the fleet IQ would go up. Or NAVSEA would rethink the staffing vs. Big Navy collateral duties. Or maybe it would be turned into a CWO program like Army helicopters. All you accomplish by recruiting future lying washouts is to suppress recruitment bonuses and increase overall entropy of the pipeline.

Think about that the next time you want to get on your soap box and tell us nuke vets and officers here how to do post the "complacency" way  

[andrewnavy]

MM! SUBNUKE: Read all your posts and see if you agree with what you are saying.  You seem to be doing a lot of justifying for your actions for a company that will burn you if you get caught.  Why are you risking your reputation for them?

I am pretty sure that I already said what you repeated:

MM1 SUBNUKE[/color]
...News flash, if you cant find people to fill the requirements don't encourage others to lie to make your numbers.  If all the recruiters were honest and there were not enough people coming in, then the bigwigs would be forced change the recruiting policies to make the recruiting goal.  It turns out that they will have a retention problem if the recruiting is slumping.  Lying is a way to make that job easier (which I am sure that job is hard and sucks) but by taking the easy way out you prolong the problem.  The navy as we all know is about numbers (metrics), they do not care about anything until the numbers don't add up.  It turns out that if you lie and keep making the numbers then they never get the point of what is happening to get those numbers (IE making recruiters go above and beyond what they should have to do).  They cant fire everyone if all of you guys were being honest.   

I for one would have rather had a longer sea duty with people who I was relatively sure would not kill me while I was sleeping.  If you never force the issue that there is a problem, then how will it ever get solved?  If higher bonuses wont do it which is proving correct, then what will unless you up the program quality.  You do not do that by hiring liars.

Or NAVSEA would only recruit Nukes and SpecOps, and washouts would then go to all the other topsider/coner rating A schools, and the fleet IQ would go up. Or NAVSEA would rethink the staffing vs. Big Navy collateral duties. Or maybe it would be turned into a CWO program like Army helicopters. All you accomplish by recruiting future lying washouts is to suppress recruitment bonuses and increase overall entropy of the pipeline.

Think about that the next time you want to get on your soap box and tell us nuke vets and officers here how to do post the "complacency" way 

Great point with the CWO program.

[navynukedoc]

 


I have done quite a few screenings for power school, but never for a comissioning, but let me tell you something from personal experience,

#1 Depression is not a DQ'ing factor for nuke service, HOWEVER, time and condition of your discharge from your mental health provider will dictate this.

#2 Honor, Courage, Commitment - Navy Motto - emphasized in this part is the HONOR

#3 If you comission, and are found out later to have falsified your entrance papers I know some JAG officers who are going to try to put you in Levenworth for a while especially if you have access to confidential items.

[shocker]

GNowakowski -

Keep them short and sweet.  Elegant prose is not needed for a short "This happened in my past.  I learned from it, and have not done it since." letter.  My waiver was 1 written page long, about 3 paragraphs 3 sentences each.

[OldHP]

#2 Honor, Courage, Commitment - Navy Motto - emphasized in this part is the HONOR[/b

Particularly after going back and reading the whole thread again (actually I'd forgotten how this thing got started).

[drayer54]

GNowakowski -

Keep them short and sweet.  Elegant prose is not needed for a short "This happened in my past.  I learned from it, and have not done it since." letter.  My waiver was 1 written page long, about 3 paragraphs 3 sentences each.

Good idea, mine was short, sweet, and to the point. I didn't offer any extra information or opinions/apologies/ anything. It was a statement of what happened and what happened after, won't pee a sax again. In and out..... I wouldn't write anything that could lead to more questions or reasons to investigate.

Or NAVSEA would only recruit Nukes and SpecOps, and washouts would then go to all the other topsider/coner rating A schools, and the fleet IQ would go up. Or NAVSEA would rethink the staffing vs. Big Navy collateral duties. Or All you accomplish by recruiting future lying washouts is to suppress recruitment bonuses and increase overall entropy of the pipeline

BRILLIANT!Excellent application of the word entropy and great point. Have you considered CNO? SECNAV?