Why are nukes de-nuked?

[MoreHooyah]

I'm at NNPTC with hopefully a long career ahead of me. I already know that a lot of sailors fall out of the pipeline, and I was wondering why. So far, I know that NJP and grades are career-killers, but what else causes people to be reclassified? Can people who want to reclass do it if they get the chits signed? It seems like a lot of people leave, and I was wondering how and why.

[Higgs]

Because they're stupid.

[Starkist]

Because they're stupid.

Or medical reasons....

I'm at NNPTC with hopefully a long career ahead of me. I already know that a lot of sailors fall out of the pipeline, and I was wondering why. So far, I know that NJP and grades are career-killers, but what else causes people to be reclassified? Can people who want to reclass do it if they get the chits signed? It seems like a lot of people leave, and I was wondering how and why.

No. You cant just "get a chit" to reclassify. 

[Smart People]

Posting as a "de-nuked"

Because they're stupid.

not a class answer.

[Higgs]

Posting as a "de-nuked"

not a class answer.

You're right, I was being a smart ass..., for a reason. I apologize if I've offended anyone.

[drayer54]

For some, it's because they do something stupid.

For others it can be medical reasons.

Some do things to try and get de-nuked, like the sad thing .

Failing training tests at sea can do it if you fail enough.

The new big one is losing your clearance from too much debt. Lots of sea returnees with no tld and allotments set up for them. Nothing like giving rank and responsibility to those who can't handle their own affairs.

You should be worried about being a nuke, not getting de-nuked.

[Smart People]

You're right, I was being a smart ass..., for a reason. I apologize if I've offended anyone.

Forgiven

[Chimera]

I'm at NNPTC with hopefully a long career ahead of me. I already know that a lot of sailors fall out of the pipeline, and I was wondering why. So far, I know that NJP and grades are career-killers, but what else causes people to be reclassified? Can people who want to reclass do it if they get the chits signed? It seems like a lot of people leave, and I was wondering how and why.

Speaking only for myself, way back once upon a time while attending Nuke School at Mare Island, I wanted out of the program.  I had talked to some of the sailors on board the nuke fast attacks at the sub piers while I was stationed on the USS Sperry.  I was also newly married.  I wasn't looking forward to long deployments and all the other apparent hassles that seemed to be looming on my personal horizon.  I was pretty much convinced that I had made a bad career move by entering the nuke program but I wasn't willing to do anything that would harm the remainder of my time in the Navy.  As an ET, I was in for six years regardless.  While my section Chief sort of understood what I was trying to do, he thought I was nuts for over-reacting to something that had not yet happened.

When I arrived at the S5G prototype and started actually applying all that "garbage" I had been force-fed at MINSY, my attitude changed.  As one of the hot-runner RO's, I probably had more to digest in a shorter period of time than the average nuke, but it was now interesting - not just the knowledge but the application of that knowledge.

So speaking only for myself, I wanted out because of what I thought I knew but had not yet experienced.  The later experiences more than offset those earlier fears.  And, yes, my marriage lasted.  I was lucky there, too.

[HalfHazzard]

To the OP:  A lot of your shipmates are probably leaving for test scores (they're stupid) or they do bad things on liberty (they make stupid decisions).

When you hit the fleet and operate, don't forget integrity issues.  Make a stupid decision on watch, like blazing logs, blazing maintenance, didn't perform an operation you said you did perform, are all valid reasons to leave the NNPP.

In addition, don't cheat on the seemingly endless tests you'll encounter in your six years.  Pick up an issue of the Navy Times any given month and you'll understand why.  Your boat may have a different approach to testing, just do your best to prepare and write as much as you know, and you almost can't fail.

Higgs, in a sense, covered a majority of the reasons.

[Fermi2]

You're right, I was being a smart ass..., for a reason. I apologize if I've offended anyone.

Don't apologize, you hit it dead on.

[IPREGEN]

Some folks just think it's too much effort to apply themselves and don't make it.
They would be slackers.

[HeavyD]

Why do nukes get de-nuked? 

Why do people snort glue fumes, flip off cops, pee on electric fences, drive 120 mph on a residential street on a motorcycle, etc.?  Seemingly good, smart young people do things that make others go "What the f*&^ is wrong with you?".  Their parents didn't teach them right and wrong, they are lazy, they are stupid, they had some medical reason, they got "sad" (seen that one played too many times, personally), they made a poor decision regarding alcohol and/or a woman (or man), etc, etc, etc. 

We, the Nukes of the world, tend to be a pack type of animal.  Observing those around us, learning from them.  What I mean here is that we watch galactically stupid and dumb thing our shipmate does and tell ourselves, "I will NEVER do that!".   As teenagers growing up, you are supposed to develop that same strategy in life.  I am teaching my 14 year old son to not do the same thing stupid stuff he sees kids in school do.  He comes home and tells us about something a kid did and I ask him "Have you thought about doing that?" to which he responds, without blinking an eye, "No way, that was stupid.".  Now, he could just be blowing smoke up my butt, absolutely, but I also see better judgment everyday from him.

So, kiddies, take this advice.  Use your brain BEFORE you take action, any action.  Take about 10 seconds and ask yourself if this a great idea or not.  Look forward and see how being lazy will get you booted from what you told a recruiter you wanted.  If you aren't 21, wait for the beer (tough one, I know).  Learn from the mistakes of those around you.  Following these simple things will help you, not only in the Nuke world, but in life in general.

Just my 2 cents for this discussion.

[My Moratorium]

    First off, NJP is not always a career killer. You can rebound from what will be a minor dent in your illustrious naval career. Failing grades through the Nuke Pipeline are. Also, I think NNPTC still had the high-retention pennant, so relatively speaking most sailors make it through the NNPP.
I could think of 5 ways sailors left the program: Medical, Psychological, Academic, Disciplinary, and failing FEP.

   If you get "de-nuked", reclassification may not be an option. And if you do get re-classed, it depends on the needs of the Navy. A lot of individuals at DTP were assigned BM. If you failed out of A school, they knocked you down to E-1 or E-2 and could send you to the fleet UNDESIGNATED. (Unless you made E-3 due to Eagle scout, ROTC, or College credits)

  Also, most nuclear waste who opted to separate via 1306 or involuntary got a General Discharge for admin separation. Something to consider if you even think failure is an option.

[Starkist]

Navy hasn't been reclassifying nukes (NEC holders) for a couple years now. 

[HeavyD]

About five or six years ago, if you were a MM you were almost guaranteed to become a conventional MM.  As an EM or ET, if your background was reasonable, you may have been able to pick a new rate.

Fast forward to about two years ago.  Still a good chance to cross over as a MM.  However, if you were an ET or an EM, you were going home.  Conventional EM was overmanned.  Nuke ET in no way, shape or form even comes close to resembling a conventional ET, except for the same uniform.

Now we come to the last twelve months.  If you are de-nuked, you are going home, regardless of your rate.  I've seen a twelve year EM senior chief get the boot, a 10 year ET1 and a 7 year MM1.  Your past performance is irrelevant. 

The Navy is trying (emphasis on trying) to get its end strength where it needs to be.  Overmanned rates are going to be shrunk.  Undermanned rates are not really that many, with Nukes being among that list.  Training a sailor again is expensive, an expense the Navy would rather spend on a new sailor.  Add into this the reason that someone gets de-nuked in the first place (because that will probably rule out the other undermanned rates) and that individual has now painted themselves into a corner (or been forced, for those with medical issues) from which there is no escape.

[Starkist]

Fast forward to about two years ago.  Still a good chance to cross over as a MM. 

Negative.

[Cleaver6]

Nuke ET in no way, shape or form even comes close to resembling a conventional ET, except for the same uniform.

Does this apply in the pipeline, too? Say, for example, a nuke ET finishes A school and de-nukes academically in power school or prototype.

[HeavyD]

Just to clarify and amplify my previous post.

Personal experience, i.e. seeing several guys on my last ship, was that as an MM (roughly two years ago) you still had a decent chance to go be a conventional MM.  Now, that was on that particular ship about 2 years ago.  Things are changing rapidly with the Navy and its "right sizing" and more recent events I have not personally been privy to.  So, grain of salt kind of thing. 

As for Cleaver6's question, if doesn't matter when you get de-nuked.  As recently as November, when I went on terminal leave to retire, no matter what your rate, you were going home.

Just to add something to this discussion that hasn't popped up yet.  Why does the Navy get rid of these folks?  Wouldn't they, the Navy, want what would seem to be bright, semi-intelligent individuals?

Well, if one were to read their initial and subsequent reenlistment contracts, it is spelled out there.  If through an individual's own actions or because of circumstances beyond their control (i.e. medical), an individual becomes ineligible for the Nuclear Program, they will be separated from Naval service.  Right or wrong, for the most part, is irrelevant.

As has been stated before, medical issues aside, don't be stupid.  Let's face the truth here.  Being stupid is why the vast majority of Nukes get de-nuked in the first place.  They get in trouble with alcohol (stupid), they get in trouble with law enforcement (stupid), they don't apply themselves academically (stupid), they fail to maintain minimum physical fitness requirements (stupid), etc., etc., etc.

[Starkist]

Does this apply in the pipeline, too? Say, for example, a nuke ET finishes A school and de-nukes academically in power school or prototype.

If you denuke academically, (generally) you keep E-4, and you go do another A-school then join the fleet as a conventional of whatever your base rating is.  I think ET's get to choose a different rating.  MM's and EM's transpose pretty well. One of my good friends (MM) was dropped academically, but he was busting his butt. They cut him some slack, and he was able to choose to become a GSM, AND keep his rate.  

Sounds like you are nervous? Are you not doing well in school? If so, you need to be asking for help on all avenues, and focusing on your future. If you bust your butt, and simply can't do it, you are generally well taken care of. On the other hand, if you just "Give up" and say "F--k it!" you will enjoy those consequences..

One thing I've always enjoyed about the navy.... you reap what you sow... most of the time anyway.

[MoreHooyah]

If you denuke academically, (generally) you keep E-4, and you go do another A-school then join the fleet as a conventional of whatever your base rating is.  I think ET's get to choose a different rating.  MM's and EM's transpose pretty well. One of my good friends (MM) was dropped academically, but he was busting his butt. They cut him some slack, and he was able to choose to become a GSM, AND keep his rate.  

Sounds like you are nervous? Are you not doing well in school? If so, you need to be asking for help on all avenues, and focusing on your future. If you bust your butt, and simply can't do it, you are generally well taken care of. On the other hand, if you just "Give up" and say "F--k it!" you will enjoy those consequences..

One thing I've always enjoyed about the navy.... you reap what you sow... most of the time anyway.

Sorry I haven't been on to reply to everyone. Been busy. You know how it is.

You pretty much got it. It's hard. Not gonna lie. I'm there late, studying. Not one of those guys dicking around talking to people or anything. Not worried about PFA. I can do that. Not worried about NJP. Not a problem here. Not a drinker or drug user or anything. Just struggling academically.

You know, I want to be successful here, but I'm worried about what I keep being told. They say "you can't get promoted unless you teach here, and you can't teach here unless you get a good GPA." Well that's a problem isnt it? They said they'll consider if you do well in prototype, but I have to get there first.

I don't know if you guys got this, but they gave me a packet to figure out how my brain works. I answered some questions and found out I'm the kind of guy who learns from hands on stuff. How do you study diagrams hands on? How do you study definitions hands on? I can tell you and show you how the equipment works all day long, but I keep losing a lot of points because I can't use buzzwords they force fed me to answer test questions.

So here I am, struggling. I have no problem with inspection, being on time, or behaving myself. Its just school. I don't want to come off as a bad sailor. I even feel like I understand the material. I'm just worried about what happens to me if I don't make it here. Are they going to throw me in with the people who get into bar fights and can't do pushups? I'll take a chief yelling at me for failing if I can still be in the Navy afterwords. And what's the difference before and after A school? If I make it to E-4, do I keep it even if I fail? Is there like an OPNAVINSTmorelettersandnumbers???

Thanks for bearing with me. I understand you guys are maybe years away from me in terms of being experienced and working. I respect that a lot, and I want to get to where you are. It just looks like I might not be on your level in school. 

[Starkist]

Incorrect on the promotions bit.

My boat seemed to spit out 4-5 year first classes like they grew on trees....

[MMM]

As a nuke you can easily make E-6 without being an instructor. I did it in 7 years, with having my recommendation removed for about a year (being immature). Making Chief on the other hand, usually requires being an instructor or showing you're the best thing to happen to the navy since boats, and requires (now in writing) being qualified EWS/PPWS.

[shocker]

As a fellow hands-on learner, standby power school and the beginning of prototype will suck. The best advice I can give you is to get a white board, and write those key-words, tricky phrases over and over and over again. It takes a while to get hands-on in the pipeline, A-school and the labs are one of the best chances you have for a while. Try to learn how to visualize the systems you learn, make them relate to something physical you can easily imagine so you can "follow" along with a process.  For example, in power school I imagined the reactor as a ball pit full of popcorn, is that what it is? Hell no, but it worked for me during RP :-P

To the promotion part - the GPA part is being able to come back to NNPTC. You can still be successful, and when you get to prototype you will quickly realize how small of a representation NNPTC instructors make up of the normal first tour sea-returnees.

[MoreHooyah]

Much much appreciated. I have the time to try just about anything to study since I'm pretty much on base all the time. I don't know how all those guys in my class just d**k around. There's a lot of talking and hanging out during study time, and they barely get their homework done. I wish there was some sort of credit for putting forth the effort while everyone else coasts to some really good grades. Meanwhile, I'm at NDI trying to figure stuff out. I'm sick of putting out twice the effort for twice the hours and getting by.

[Marlin]

Much much appreciated. I have the time to try just about anything to study since I'm pretty much on base all the time. I don't know how all those guys in my class just d**k around. There's a lot of talking and hanging out during study time, and they barely get their homework done. I wish there was some sort of credit for putting forth the effort while everyone else coasts to some really good grades. Meanwhile, I'm at NDI trying to figure stuff out. I'm sick of putting out twice the effort for twice the hours and getting by.

   Many moons ago there was a sign over the entrance to Nuke school (Mare Island) that stated the "The smartest must try as hard" the sections were separated by test scores and previous education. The lowest section got what it needed and the top section was maxed out. I would think that the school would benefit from re-instituting this practice as many good operators are probably lost unnecessarily and a lot of high end academics do not get the full load they should be carrying. Of course there was an academic washout of the bottom third of the A school class whether you passed or not prior to Nuke School.

   If you are like many of us you probably did not have to apply yourself to coast through school and need to develope study habits. There is also such a thing as too much study or misdirected study, check to see if there is any guidance for study protocols, you would not be there if you did not have the capacity. Check into a Nuke "Sylvan Learning Center"    a kick start may be all you need. Also listen closely in class many instructors consciously or unconsciously give clues to what is important for the test, that may be part of the reason why your peers do not have to study as much.