PTSD

[Scenario03]

I know a lot of people have had NEC removals, but I haven't seen any related to PTSD. I checked.

A little about myself:

5 1/2 years, surface nuke EM, qualified Load Dispatcher, a card signer for all quals, etc...

Back in 2010, I was down where the Chief was electrocuted and died on a 450V breaker. I was traumatized by the experience, and I knew that if I brought it up to the Navy, they would immediately de-nuke me, and I would lose out on a lot of experience, etc... I tried to keep the Navy not involved. After seeing a bunch of social workers, and paying out of pocket for civilian psychologist, and psychiatrist, I was diagnosed very quickly with PTSD. I was advised that I really should bring this up to the Navy, but I was trying to handle it without them knowing. I ended up having a flashback at work (due to an open system, and the plant looking like it did when everything happened...shipyard, everything tagged out, all the temp systems), and immediately was taken to the Psych. I was put on meds, was diagnosed by the Navy with PTSD and Depression, and put on limited duty. Since I was placed on de-nuking meds (Celexa, Prazosin, and Trazadone), they pulled my NEC (as per my contract). They initially said that I had to pay back my bonus, but I challenged it, as it was a military related event, and they are awaiting my med-board to decide to recoup or not. Not too worried about this.

My question:

I qualified everything I could up to my position, never had any NJP's, no negative counseling chits, never went dinq a qualification, kept my nose clean the entire time. I honestly have no problems standing watch. I'm still uncomfortable being in open electrical systems, but I am working on it. I still did maintenance the two years after it happened, but I mainly took as many extra duties as I could to avoid being around too much. I'm finishing up the nuclear engineering technology degree via Excelsior in my downtime, and it's looking like I'll be getting out early next year after my med board. I have proof of all my quals, my orders to show my timeline, and all documentation about my diagnosis. I will get an honorable discharge, but on my DD-214, my NEC will not be the 3384 I had. When I interview for a job (looking for a job in operations), should I just leave it at that I was discharged medically, or is this something I should explain? I'm not going to go out and immediately jump into something until I've come to terms with everything, and know that I won't be a liability. I'm taking my treatment seriously. I love Nuclear Power, I love standing watch, I really wish things didn't happen the way they did, but I just want to know the best way of approaching this in my interviews, or is this going to be something that will probably keep me from getting into the civilian side of the nuke field?

I appreciate all responses, and thank you!

[IPREGEN]

You, like everyone else would have the please of taking the MMPI (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory) test. Depending on how you do with that you may or may not have an interview with a psychologist to determine your ability to work at that particular station. As for the drugs, that would be up to the local site medical review officer.

[GLW]

................I was diagnosed very quickly with PTSD. I was advised that I really should bring this up to the Navy, but I was trying to handle it without them knowing. I ended up having a flashback at work (due to an open system, and the plant looking like it did when everything happened......

.....I'm still uncomfortable being in open electrical systems, but I am working on it. I still did maintenance the two years after it happened, but I mainly took as many extra duties as I could to avoid being around too much.......

Before anyone jumps down my throat for being unsympathetic, I will state that my empathy stops at the time your supervisor is clueless to the fact that your PTSD and the inherent flashbacks can kill the guy who has been working with and for that supervisor for six years, and that supervisor will have to tell the dead man's wife and children that their husband and father will never come home from a job that the same supervisor assigned him to. Regardless of all the CBOT training and FFD protections the supervisor failed, the supervisor failed to be the last, best link in the chain that makes sure everybody goes home breathing just as well as when they came to work.

Sorry Scenario03 but one of the potential pitfalls of the NNPP is puffing folks up into believing they are smarter than anybody else in the room.

Did it ever occur to you your PTSD could kill someone else?

That during your quest to gain as much as you could out of the Navy before EAOS or your condition caught up to you, that the price tag could be someone else's life?

Of course it occured to you, if you deny it I label you liar and dam me if I am wrong!!

It occured to you because you were smart enough to make it through Navy Nuclear Power School, smart enough to successfully hide your condition from the Navy for years as you completed the qualification routine, performed maintenance, stood watch, performed through the stress of ORSE and workups and the general rigamaroll of life in the US Navy enlisted NNPP.

You are a smart cookie, and very good at deceit and covering your tracks to achieve your ends.

Anybody that smart knows the results of their duplicity could be someone else's life during a maintenance evolution gone wrong because of a flashback.

Your duty was to let your supervisor's know of this, for the protection of everybody involved, your duty was to protect the lives of those around you as best as you could within the place where your condition could affect them profoundly.

Not to "self-medicate" as you deemed best to achieve your goals and aspirations.

But,....you got what most of what you wanted out of the Navy, your quals, your HD, your veterans benefits, the whole ride sans the NEC.

And now you come here trying to figure the best way to gloss through the ugly unspoken truth of your duplicity when applying for a job in commercial nuclear power?!?!?

Here's my advice,....

Don't ask us, don't make us complicit in your deceit with well meaning but misplaced empathy for the tragedy of watching your chief cook and sizzle before your eyes.

Be prepared to explain this thread (social media search), because this thread is going to be a wake up call to somebody to be watching for a certain resume with certain key bits of information to come through the system, to wit;

USS Ronald Reagan

2010

5 1/2 years, surface nuke EM, qualified Load Dispatcher

Nuclear engineering technology degree via Excelsior

I qualified everything I could up to my position, never had any NJP's, no negative counseling chits, never went dinq a qualification, kept my nose clean the entire time.

I have proof of all my quals, my orders to show my timeline, and all documentation about my diagnosis. I will get an honorable discharge, but on my DD-214, my NEC will not be the 3384 I had.

I tried to keep the Navy not involved. After seeing a bunch of social workers, and paying out of pocket for civilian psychologist, and psychiatrist, I was diagnosed very quickly with PTSD. I was advised that I really should bring this up to the Navy, but I was trying to handle it without them knowing.


Can you get employment?!?!?

Probably.

Should you be trusted with the lives of your co-workers?!?

I'm not qualified to delve that far into your current standard of ethics to know you would rather inconvenience yourself before putting others around you at risk.

My assessment of your past ethics is that you and your desires come first.

(sic)

[Fermi2]

I agree, this guy has lied to himself, lied to others, and continues to lie to himself. Obviously he doesn't realize that commercial plants have even more electricity than Naval plants and the voltages are 10 to hundreds of times higher. He'll get someone killed. I wouldn't want him around.

[RDTroja]

I am going to disagree with GLW on this one.

Not his assessment, but his conclusion that the OP realizes the potential consequences of his lies. There is plenty of evidence that no thoughts of any kind regarding other people's well being have even glanced across his (or her) neurons. There is not even any evidence the OP has read (or at least understood) anything on this site concerning ethics, lies and integrity. Unfortunately, the ability to learn is not related to the ability to make moralistic decisions.

If I was a defense attorney I would say that his ability to make sound decisions was hampered by the PTSD. Someone might even believe that.

[GLW]

I am going to disagree with GLW on this one.

Not his assessment, but his conclusion that the OP realizes the potential consequences of his lies. There is plenty of evidence that no thoughts of any kind regarding other people's well being have even glanced across his (or her) neurons. There is not even any evidence the OP has read (or at least understood) anything on this site concerning ethics, lies and integrity. Unfortunately, the ability to learn is not related to the ability to make moralistic decisions.

If I was a defense attorney I would say that his ability to make sound decisions was hampered by the PTSD. Someone might even believe that.

I get your excursion into semantics, but,.....

As a friend of the court I would enter that the OP was completely cognizant of potential consequences, to wit;

Back in 2010, I was down where the Chief was electrocuted and died on a 450V breaker. I was traumatized by the experience, and I knew that if I brought it up to the Navy, they would immediately de-nuke me, and I would lose out on a lot of experience, etc... I tried to keep the Navy not involved.

The OP demonstrates cognitive ability to discern cause and effect, and demonstrates the ability to compartmentalize ethics as demonstrated by performing to the standard necessary to acquire an honourable discharge, complete a rigorous qualification program all the while maintaining the personal financial and legal comportment to maintain a security clearance, and all the while intentionally failing to disclose to his/her employer a condition he/her knew to be detrimental to the safe execution of the employers daily tasks. The OP was involved in maintenance, including the permits and safety evaluations of pre-maintenance evaluation, LO/TO and pre-job briefs.

Arguements to the contrary are substantiated by less demonstrated fact than arguements in support.

The OP realizes the potential consequences, the OP is also in the position of being able to place him/herself outside the immediate zone of danger to those consequences as the OP continues to further his/her own ambitions.

The OP thinks and acts in terms of I and the ambition of I as opposed to us,...so do most criminals, criminals know others can be hurt or killed as result of their actions, I would even entertain the notion many criminals suffer PTSD from something in their past,....it excuses nothing, it alleviates accountability not one whit.

Sound decisions on your own behalf may not be sound for others around you, the ability to make moralistic decisions divides the two former.

Why should anyone on these boards help the OP skirt that paradigm?

[GLW]

Short form,....

The OP gamed the system as long as possible to achieve the goals the OP desired, all the while witholding safety related information from his/her supervision and never allowing that supervision to determine if the OP's condition could be accomodated within the system, or if the OP could continue to honourably serve the OP's commitment in some other capacity.

The fact the USN is bestowing an honourable discharge in light of the OP's admission of holding back the truth is a godsend to the OP as it is,.....

Perhaps the OP is just a troll knowing which buttons to push with a good story,.....ah well,...

[RDTroja]

I get your excursion into semantics, but,.....

As a friend of the court I would enter that the OP was completely cognizant of potential consequences, to wit;

The OP demonstrates cognitive ability to discern cause and effect, and demonstrates the ability to compartmentalize ethics as demonstrated by performing to the standard necessary to acquire an honourable discharge, complete a rigorous qualification program all the while maintaining the personal financial and legal comportment to maintain a security clearance, and all the while intentionally failing to disclose to his/her employer a condition he/her knew to be detrimental to the safe execution of the employers daily tasks. The OP was involved in maintenance, including the permits and safety evaluations of pre-maintenance evaluation, LO/TO and pre-job briefs.

Arguements to the contrary are substantiated by less demonstrated fact than arguements in support.

The OP realizes the potential consequences, the OP is also in the position of being able to place him/herself outside the immediate zone of danger to those consequences as the OP continues to further his/her own ambitions.

The OP thinks and acts in terms of I and the ambition of I as opposed to us,...so do most criminals, criminals know others can be hurt or killed as result of their actions, I would even entertain the notion many criminals suffer PTSD from something in their past,....it excuses nothing, it alleviates accountability not one whit.

Sound decisions on your own behalf may not be sound for others around you, the ability to make moralistic decisions divides the two former.

Why should anyone on these boards help the OP skirt that paradigm?

That is exactly my point. He thinks only in the 'I' and ignores his responsibility to others to the point that he may not be capable of recognizing it. The only consequences he recognizes are those to his career and comfort. He probably has not figured out what kind of issues he would have if, instead of just watching someone die, he had caused it.

We should not help. I hope I did not give that impression in my first post.

[Higgs]

OP,

I'm sorry for what happened to you, but what makes you think you belong anywhere near a commercial ELECTRIC power plant? As an NLO, you WILL be in high energy electrical systems and racking out breakers and buckets from 480v, 4KV, 13KV and other similar systems. You'll work near transformers so large and with so much energy passing through them that if they exploded, you'd be vaporized.

Like GLW said, you can probably find employment, and if you go into ops you will be talking to a psychiatrist or psychologist by default. All medications must be reported and documented.

Justin

[bradley535]

There is a lot of good response to Scenario03's, and I do not disagree with any of them. On the other hand, none of these responses answer the question asked.

I just want to know the best way of approaching this in my interviews, or is this going to be something that will probably keep me from getting into the civilian side of the nuke field?

To answer your question, I can only tell you what approach I took with my interviews. I was 100% honest with the people across the table. They didn't want perfection, they wanted someone who could learn from their mistakes and the mistakes of others. If you go in to the interview and present who you are with no lies, the determination of IF you should have the job will fall on their shoulders. Besides, if you try to hide who you are and then get a job, you'll only find out that you can't handle what you've been given.

[fiveeleven]

Wow. Too bad this ~ 23-25 yr. old was not on the wall with Colonel Jessep, a code red would have been a god send compared to the tribunal he now faces from the NW sea-lawyer team. Was there something mentioned about potential pitfalls of the nuke squid program ? Mistakes are made in life and we hope we learn from them, and dont repeat ourselves. Fear is also a part of life that sometimes elicits the self preservation response,whether right or wrong, especially when under a regime that has a history of making its members scapegoats and fault bearers to divert attention away from programmatic and/or equipment failures. Does a love triangle in a 16" gun turret sound familiar? How many USMC riflemen were in the field armed to the teeth, had the dark thoughts,and were scared to fess up.Let the system and the young man try to work things out without the holier than thou diatribe to confuse him even more. Fess up to the potential employer as well as yourself, if the man in the mirror cannot work around the flow of electrons at whatever rate or amount, then dont do it. There is plenty to do if you can be trained to do it. You are not a failure in life because you made a potentially bad decision. It did not turn out bad this time, so dont do it again. As we have seen here - puffhards abound and blowhards around. I eagerly await the beating, it is coveted.

[drayer54]

What's done is done. Going forward you should be open and honest. Good job working on the degree and keeping your nose clean.

As an ex nuke, you can get many jobs that won't put you in the room with breakers and high voltages. Your RMC isn't a bad one to get time off for interviews or job fairs.

Good luck

[Starkist]

Im not even gonna bother reading the other posts...

Scenario ->  first and foremost, allow me to explain the nature of this forum. For starters, self loathing and sycophants do not bode well here. No one here is going to tell you what you WANT to hear, but pretty much everyone is going to tell you what you NEED to hear (in some fashion or another, it's up to you to decipher), and everyone here really does mean well in some form. Even broadzilla is a marshmallow, you just need to stroke his former ELT-Shift Manager ego (still not sure which he's more proud of )

Lets start with your navy stuff ->

1) You will not have to pay your bonus back. Not sure who is telling you that B.S..
2) Ignore 99.99% of what anyone in rx dept has to say about your situation. I learned the hard way that not too many of them really have a clue. Stick to medical, legal, and your higher ups (not your divisional people for sure).
3) Prepare for the "great suck". Its the time between here and now while you don't have an NEC. It's not overly your fault, but others will make it seem that way. Ignore the BS. I've seen it take over a year for this stuff to "process" for whatever reason.
4) PTSD should get you some disability, I'd check into that stuff if I were you.


Now lets go over employment ->

1) If you are having flashback's of people dying, the industrial electrical world is probably a place I would stay away from. You ARE employable, NOT just in a nuclear setting.
2) Your GI Bill is quite awesome, I highly recommend you take some time to get your degree in whatever field you choose. This will lot you time to "Get your mind right" as well.  Navy + engineering degree makes you VERY VERY WANTED.
3) Employers are NOT allowed to ask you certain questions regarding health unless its completely applicable to the job.

Let me tell you a true story, tailored to yours :
Lets pretend you got out today. You waste no time and start applying for a job.  You apply all over the country to various nuclear plants, and you get a lot of callbacks! You go interview at a few different places, and you get offered a job. You take said job without any considerations, and you go in guns blazing. You kick butt at school, you get along well with management and instructors, everything seems to be shining on you. One day, several months later, you have a flashback while roaming the plant. You have a security incident, and can't function. You go see the doctor, and your clearance gets pulled.  A few months down the road, they  realize you are not worth the risk, and decide to terminate you....


Bottom line -> Its gonna suck until you get discharged, keep your head up; You really need to consider going to school instead of jumping on employment asap; and you REALLY need to do whatever it takes to get your mind right.

[Starkist]

OK I caved in and decided to read these things.

I fear you guys are misreading this kids intentions. I see someone that tried in vain to handle it by himself. The absolute ridiculous pressure put on people to "Support the watchbill" is beyond absurd.

You guys ever get death threats for not having a TLD? I have. You guys ever get your lockers broken into and having all your valuables stolen because you dont have a TLD? I have.  You guys ever been woken up every 15 minutes by people sneaking out the plant to wake you up because you dont have a TLD? I have.  You guys ever have to clean a toilet at 2-4am because you don't have a TLD and someone literally crapped on the floor because they knew you have to clean it up? I have.

If you guys feel im being "over sensitive" or "exaggerating" I shall merely point you to Drayer.

Life's not very fun on the boat when everyone in your division hates you, even (especially) though its not your fault.

As Five-Eleven seemed to hint to, Nukes "Code Red" each other on a daily basis.

[GLW]

Hmmmm, where to begin,...

All the references to "A Few Good Men", all the focus on Code Reds and hard ass Col. Jessup types and no focus on the salient point of the entire movie, among the last words uttered by Sergeant Dawson,"We were supposed to fight for Willy." ergo, "We were supposed to do the right thing, even if it costs us."

I suffer from two problems with the scenario.

First, integrity.

5/8 of the respondents to the OP reinforce the notion that if you can got away with it, it was okay, nobody got hurt, the pressure to do the wrong thing is immense compared to the reward for doing the right thing, just do not try the same game on the outside because you will not get away with it out here.

If I am a member of the general public reading this thread with a nuclear reactor in my backyard I might have to worry about 5/8 of the personnel in that power plant equivocating the rewards versus disincentives when it comes down to doing the right thing.

5/8 of those persons equivocate should I do it with will I get caught, not reassuring.

The oddball part of it all is that the OP is in a more compromised position now than before the OP made the wrong decision. The Navy jacked the OP for years of watches, field days, and all the other Navy stuff and the OP still has no NEC to show for it. Worse yet, the OP will have to explain to those very congenial and sympathetic security types why the OP lied to the Navy for years. Lied for years, hid the truth for years, and now wants to have unescorted access to Spent Fuel Pools.

The OP would have been better served having to explain that losing an NEC to PTSD was the hardest thing that ever happened to them, but they persevered, completed their enlistment as the Navy best saw fit, earned a degree and would like a chance to work in the industry in whatever capacity the commercial world could make use of the OP's talents and demonstrated integrity.

5/8 of the respondents send the message to any other Navy kid contemplating gaming the system to get it over if you can because the pressures in the Navy are great, just don't try the same BS out here.

As for all the grumpy old blowhards and puffhards around here who insist on doing the right thing well, 5/8 would counsel that you are not a failure in life because you make a potentially bad decision. If it does not turn out bad over time, take your advantage and run with it, just don't do it again later and push your luck.

Second, safety.

If it's acceptable to game the system as long as no one got hurt and we are counseled later that gaming the system is forgivable unless we are caught just sits poorly with me.

23 to 25 year olds almost never believe they can get caught, almost never believe they can get killed, almost never believe they can get someone else killed. Older folks owe it to them to not reinforce or equivocate that mindset,....even if they come off as a blowhard.

[Fermi2]

Hmmmm, where to begin,...

All the references to "A Few Good Men", all the focus on Code Reds and hard ass Col. Jessup types and no focus on the salient point of the entire movie, among the last words uttered by Sergeant Dawson,"We were supposed to fight for Willy." ergo, "We were supposed to do the right thing, even if it costs us."

I suffer from two problems with the scenario.

First, integrity.

5/8 of the respondents to the OP reinforce the notion that if you can got away with it, it was okay, nobody got hurt, the pressure to do the wrong thing is immense compared to the reward for doing the right thing, just do not try the same game on the outside because you will not get away with it out here.

If I am a member of the general public reading this thread with a nuclear reactor in my backyard I might have to worry about 5/8 of the personnel in that power plant equivocating the rewards versus disincentives when it comes down to doing the right thing.

5/8 of those persons equivocate should I do it with will I get caught, not reassuring.

The oddball part of it all is that the OP is in a more compromised position now than before the OP made the wrong decision. The Navy jacked the OP for years of watches, field days, and all the other Navy stuff and the OP still has no NEC to show for it. Worse yet, the OP will have to explain to those very congenial and sympathetic security types why the OP lied to the Navy for years. Lied for years, hid the truth for years, and now wants to have unescorted access to Spent Fuel Pools.

The OP would have been better served having to explain that losing an NEC to PTSD was the hardest thing that ever happened to them, but they persevered, completed their enlistment as the Navy best saw fit, earned a degree and would like a chance to work in the industry in whatever capacity the commercial world could make use of the OP's talents and demonstrated integrity.

5/8 of the respondents send the message to any other Navy kid contemplating gaming the system to get it over if you can because the pressures in the Navy are great, just don't try the same BS out here.

As for all the grumpy old blowhards and puffhards around here who insist on doing the right thing well, 5/8 would counsel that you are not a failure in life because you make a potentially bad decision. If it does not turn out bad over time, take your advantage and run with it, just don't do it again later and push your luck.

Second, safety.

If it's acceptable to game the system as long as no one got hurt and we are counseled later that gaming the system is forgivable unless we are caught just sits poorly with me.

23 to 25 year olds almost never believe they can get caught, almost never believe they can get killed, almost never believe they can get someone else killed. Older folks owe it to them to not reinforce or equivocate that mindset,....even if they come off as a blowhard.

Well said, also let's face it. No one in the fleet is getting a Code Red.

[Starkist]

Allow me to say, I did not (do not) condone his actions. All I'm saying is I feel that there may have been more of a "self preservation" aspect vs "deceit".  

I'm simply playing devil's advocate based on the complete and utter #%^-fest I had to deal with when I was in the navy. 

"Apparently" there's some concern about why I am bothering to post this stuff. This is not meant to be an attack on anyone, a pity party for myself, or any way to "engage" any of you. I'm pointing out that the Navy isn't so "black and white" as you guys are making it out to be, and that some really bad things happen to you when you lose your TLD.  Enough, as such, to cause someone to try to go around the system instead of through it.

No one in the fleet is getting a Code Red.

Disagree. "Nukes eat their own" remember?  At least that's how it was on my ship....

[hamsamich]

The Navy was a game, and you were always getting gamed.  So I don't blame anyone who did what they had to do to  survive in the Navy.  You can talk all you want about people "lying" to the Navy being such terrible people, but the Navy treated me with such disrespect and threw so much BS my way I wouldn't know where to begin to talk about it all.  Life is unfair you say, yeah, but when it goes in the other direction it seems this board is always ready to blame the individual.  In the Navy you fought fire with fire.  The Navy taught me to survive an unfair world and taught me a trade worth mucho dinero so I am greatful for the Navy.  But I'm not going to lie on this board about how the Navy did business in alot of people's cases, including my own.  Just one for instance is all the talk about watchstanding excellence but most of us operated a nuclear reactor's engine room a half step away from falling asleep, with some Ahole EDEA or MMCM ready to write us up for falling asleep on watch.  Another case was my buddy with brian cancer who was denied proper medical care because he was deemed too important to not be on the underway.  I could go on and on with gray areas and baldfaced lies I was told and friends of mine were told but I won't.  The Navy did eat its own in more ways than one, which ended up being the "whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger" for me.  Thanks Navy.  The Navy put people in plenty of situations where people could get killed, hurt, reputation destroyed etc and most of us saw this.  I would like it if the holier than thou attitude on this board could get dialed down some.

[Scenario03]

Well, I guess if that's the mentality of most people in the industry, I probably shouldn't look into going in. I did state that I wouldn't come in until I knew I wouldn't be a liability, but I guess I never could judge that myself. When this happened, I had been on board barely over a year, and I listened to some bad advice from an EM1 that told me to just "ignore it, don't get involved." So I didn't. I didn't say anything, and of course I regret that now. I honestly felt super lost in my junior state, and I saw RE division go from over 100 people to a little over 40 blue shirts in about a 6 month period. I can understand alot of what you guys said, but deceit was hardly something I was doing. Why would I want to live like that? Why would I want to stay for 9 hours installing 6 fuses due to the work controls put in place? Why should load center clean and inspects take 3 months of staying at work every night til 9 (surface guys)? I tell you, it was great when RE disqualified all but about 10 of us maintenance, and the 10 of us (with 5 of us out of plant) had to do both plants maintenance, oh and according to the good ol USS RONNIE RAE, HANGING TAGS is considered maintenance. I don't give a crap about the miniscule amount of disability the Navy would give me for my condition (I'm assuming) compared to what I would make on the outside, seeing as mental health issues aren't recognized by the Navy, AND they would do anything to NOT give it to me. Why even bother? I HATE being on limited duty, but I do want to get better. Integrity is something that, as much as the Navy nuke program preaches, don't practice. It is honestly refreshing to see people actually care about that in the civilian sector. Where you guys are saying, "No, this isn't the place for you." my doctors told me that NR was going to waive all the medication I was on to get me back to the ship (but the docs said I couldn't go back). Things have changed since a lot of you guys have been in. I hear it from all the guys that have been in a long time. Anyways, thank you for giving me an idea of what I need to do. I really appreciate your feedback, and I'm honestly ENVIOUS I didn't have an environment like what you guys have/had around me coming up. 

Thanks.

[GLW]

Well, I guess.....

Let me give you the big clue in all this,...

Honour is never about what the other guy or the institution or the state or your spouse does to you,...

It's about you,....

Did the Navy ever jack me over twenty plus years ago?!?!?

Yup, plenty,....

Did I ever jack the Navy over?

Never,...

Did the Navy CCC's act like simpering fools when they came to the realization that one of the poster boys for the NNPP was actually not going to re-enlist?

Yup, promised me the moon, promised checks their anchors and stars could never cash, I still left.

Did they then get juvenile when my EAOS was only three days away and the outprocessing folks ordered them to take me off the duty roster and send me over to get my mustering out paperwork done?

Yup, it was a sorry display from some very senior enlisted types, but then again, not all of them.

That's how it was in the USN, there were some really great superiors, and a lot of less than desireable.

After you get out, the whole world is that way,....

After you get out you will still have to make choices, is honour about you or is it relative to your situation?

Because you will always run into that guy who tells you to do the wrong thing, when you're 23, 33, 44, 55, 63 and so on till you are dirt napping.

Hiding behind his advice is a choice you will have to make again and again.

And from my count on this thread it is not the mentality of most people in this industry, by my count relativistic honour and honesty is about 2/3 of the people in this industry.

[Fermi2]

Well, I guess if that's the mentality of most people in the industry, I probably shouldn't look into going in. I did state that I wouldn't come in until I knew I wouldn't be a liability, but I guess I never could judge that myself. When this happened, I had been on board barely over a year, and I listened to some bad advice from an EM1 that told me to just "ignore it, don't get involved." So I didn't. I didn't say anything, and of course I regret that now. I honestly felt super lost in my junior state, and I saw RE division go from over 100 people to a little over 40 blue shirts in about a 6 month period. I can understand alot of what you guys said, but deceit was hardly something I was doing. Why would I want to live like that? Why would I want to stay for 9 hours installing 6 fuses due to the work controls put in place? Why should load center clean and inspects take 3 months of staying at work every night til 9 (surface guys)? I tell you, it was great when RE disqualified all but about 10 of us maintenance, and the 10 of us (with 5 of us out of plant) had to do both plants maintenance, oh and according to the good ol USS RONNIE RAE, HANGING TAGS is considered maintenance. I don't give a crap about the miniscule amount of disability the Navy would give me for my condition (I'm assuming) compared to what I would make on the outside, seeing as mental health issues aren't recognized by the Navy, AND they would do anything to NOT give it to me. Why even bother? I HATE being on limited duty, but I do want to get better. Integrity is something that, as much as the Navy nuke program preaches, don't practice. It is honestly refreshing to see people actually care about that in the civilian sector. Where you guys are saying, "No, this isn't the place for you." my doctors told me that NR was going to waive all the medication I was on to get me back to the ship (but the docs said I couldn't go back). Things have changed since a lot of you guys have been in. I hear it from all the guys that have been in a long time. Anyways, thank you for giving me an idea of what I need to do. I really appreciate your feedback, and I'm honestly ENVIOUS I didn't have an environment like what you guys have/had around me coming up. 

Thanks.

Denying whiner. Oh why should I have to hang that tagout, oh why should I have to turn that valve, oh if the company hired more people I wouldn't have to work as hard...

Our attitude is geared toward safety, GIVEN you already made the choice to hide when you were a liability you have no credibility determining when you are a liability or not.

[hamsamich]

My point is the navy forced you into making decisions when BOTH answers were wrong.  So either one you picked means anybody on this board could point a finger at you and say you are an unreliable.  Do you stand the watch after 41 hours of no sleep or do you tell the s&itbag EDEA to get another watchstander in so you can go to sleep, knowing that guy probably had less sleep.  Nope, you just stand the watch knowing you aren't fit for duty due to sleep deprivation.  2 wrong answers, no right answers, bingo you are the unreliable jerk the perfect people on this board love to point a finger at if they knew the real story.  The captain should never have let that situation come to be, but he was too busy thinking about the stars that might get onto his collar if only he could score an above average on his next 2 ORSEs....etc.

I'm sure there are some people out there who stood up and made all the right decisions and were super-navy-dudes.  I've just never met any of them face to face, and there were NONE on my submarine or tender unless I missed something.  They were all better or worse but they had to deal with what the Navy dealt them in the best way they could.  Kinda like dealing with an insurance company....

[Fermi2]

The difference being when you have a known physical condition you know can be disqualifying and you with hold it. In the commercial world that can put you in jail...

Speaking of insurance companies: Some moron rear ends my wife's vehicle WHILE SHE IS STILL MOVING, his insurance takes care of it but my insurance wants to raise our rates because a person who has never been in an accident in 25 years is all of a sudden an at risk driver.

[GLW]

My point is the navy forced you into making decisions when BOTH answers were wrong.  So either one you picked means anybody on this board could point a finger at you and say you are an unreliable.  Do you stand the watch after 41 hours of no sleep or do you tell the s&itbag EDEA to get another watchstander in so you can go to sleep, knowing that guy probably had less sleep.  Nope, you just stand the watch knowing you aren't fit for duty due to sleep deprivation.....

Forcing people into decisions when both answers are wrong is not exclusive to the Navy,...

No different than driving your car while talking on a cell phone because your father just had a stroke on the way to the ball game and you're rushing him to the hospital,...

That is not your father's fault, it is not the no cell phone while driving laws fault, it is not the guy you just side swiped fault, hopefully the judge may take things into consideration, but he does not have to, you may just have to pay your dues from being in a no win situation and move on,....

The OP's dilemma has nothing to do with no right answers,...

[Scenario03]

The propulsion electrician couldn't get the locking bolts to align, the Chief stepped in, being a 450 volt inspector at his prior shore command, to try and help get them engaged. The load center wasn't tagged out, and he wrapped his hands around the breaker, and it happened. I was down there, not apart of this at all, just returning some cleared tags to EOS. Wrong place at the wrong time, and I saw this. I really don't know where some of this is coming from. I never said I was just going to expect I'm fine, and ready to go. I know I'm not. I'm getting treatment, I have a long ways to go. I sought out help from people not in the Navy. Is that a bad thing? How is me not telling the Navy that I had problems with what happened covering it up? Just how great were the Navy docs you have all seen?

I specifically said I WAS NOT GOING TO JUMP INTO ANYTHING UNTIL I'VE COME TO GRIPS WITH EVERYTHING BECAUSE I WASN'T GOING TO BE A LIABILITY. Now, assuming I did, and I passed all the physicals I'm required to do as mentioned in this thread, if I showed that I had a medical discharge, how is it deceiving or scamming to leave it at that or be forced to bring it up? I was told they can't ask you what it was for. That was all I wanted to know. All I am reading is I'm never going to get better, and I'm asking on the basis I do. If I'm deemed cured, do I report something I don't have?

Some of you read way too into it.