Why so hard for JR RP?

[mkruse]

I have been in the business since 1991,i started out doing Eddie current on the primary side steam generators.after 2 years of not working very much,i rolled over to become a deconner.i spent almost 18 years as a deconner..i received ARW quals,meter quals,done RP related work since i been deconning.I finally took the NUF when the opportunity was available to me some years back,and when i tried rolling over i would get the same answer...how much RP experience do you have...well to me the only thing i didn't have was a title RP!! not saying I'm a master RP just saying after being in the business for 20yrs and working in the RP decon field,i feel i have alot of RP related experience.So after years of trying to roll over,i finally received my first 2 jobs as a JR RP tech..BUT.... now that i rolled over as a RP tech it seems theres no work available!! When i was a SR deconner i allways had work!! and now that i have rolled over and trust me i hound all the recruiters every day for outages,its like...they don't ever have anything available!! i get...well were waiting on numbers to come back..or their only taking returnees...which i have been to over 22 diffrent plants over the years.So i have been calling about Calvert and limerick since November of last year,since my last RP job was peach and oyster...and yet the only thing i get is..we don't have numbers back yet and or their only taken returnees first.which i understand,however even after calling relentlessly for these outages the only thing that was available in the end was a decon position.IM NOT SAYING i deserve special preference,I'm saying why so difficult after being in this business for so long and with tons of RP related experience is it so difficult to get in? and when i do get in i see so many new people who say this is their first outage ever!! anyhow..maybe I'm just venting!! but i really need some help with keeping my JR RP status any help is welcome.

[btkeele]

Look at the number of schools that currently have RP/HP programs...EITC, Linn St., CBC, Entergy program, just to list a few... there are at least
4 or 5 others..many have agreements with utilities to supply interns and/or JrHP's.  Now that the DOE hiring has tapered off, there is a lot
of competition for the few commercial JrHp spots.  This is also making it harder for JrHP's to get time in to be a Sr creating a backlog/glut of Jr's. 
My nephew finished a program last summer and only 3 have found any meaningful employment as Jr HP's.

[Eric_Bartlett]

"Why so hard for a JR RP?"

Great question. A question that I have been answering for the past 2 months.  Along with that one should also be "Why so hard for a Decon Tech"

there are a couple of factors that form the answer to both questions. 

1st of all this season, Spring 2013, and in fact this year is overall a bad year in that there aren't as many outages going on as normal.  Most realize every few years there is a peak season where there are 40-46 outages in a season, likewise every few years the exact opposite happens where there is a small number of outages - 2013 happens to be one of those years.  To put in context I am looking to fill roughly 30% LESS JHP positions this Spring than I had this past Fall.  Decon is even worse with 40% less positions than this past fall.  Its not that I have lost any contracts, it just happens that not as many sites are going down this season as compared to the spring 2012 or fall 2012 seasons.   

2nd we are looking at a huge influx of JHP's as compared to the past several years.  With natural progression from Decon to JHP, interns from the internship programs that have been set up and the graduates from those same programs we are looking at an over abundance of JHP techs as compared to what the industry actually needs at this time.   

Now don't get me wrong, it's not an ongoing story of doom & gloom for JHP & Decon.  Will the fall be better than the spring?  Right now, looking at he information that I have to this point, I don't think so, but 2014 is looking real good as far as the number of outages tentatively scheduled for both the Spring and the Fall.

I hope I have shed some light and help y'all understand what is going on the industry.   

Feel free to contact me should you have any questions.

As always,
Eric

[BetaAnt]

@ Eric,

With these bad years, the industry is losing more and more SHPs. As I stated in the dwindling wages forum, the corporations don't care until the regulators bust their b@lls.
It will take a serious accident or incident that radioactivity escapes to the public and the media gets a hold of it. How much do you expect to lose (tech pool wise) by the end of the year? 5-10% SHP loss. I know a lot of juniors eyes lit up with the fewer seniors. But they are in the same boat. Fewer HP slots overall.
However, if Iran or some other terrorist government or entity sets off a nuke in the US, that would mean a lot of D&D work at home. Just as the Fukushima accident has become a Japanese job boom for cleanup.

I just hope I am still around at the end of this year for another round of outages.

BA

[mkruse]

I understand that having a formal education can be beneficial.However in my opinion nothing beats having actual  in the field hands on experience.The utility's are actually overlooking the abundant experienced Sr deconners available,ones who have been in the field have been literally knee deep in contamination,or have worked in highly radioactive areas and have came out completely clean.These are the ones in the trenches controlling the spread of radioactive materials and keeping themselves from being crapped up.Most of them have been either ARW qualified or have had meter quals.They have worked side by side with RP and have assisted with many of their duties as well.we have monitored other workers exposure and in most cases we coach or warn other work groups of the current radiological hazards that exist in the area we are working in.To me having actual hands on experience is pricless compaired to having just formal education.Now do i agree with the hiring of interns..yes of course.i enjoy seeing new ones coming in and being able to pass on years of experience.All I'm saying is that before the utility's go looking to some college for workers...why not look right in their own back yard for those with valuable hands on experience.

[Marlin]

I understand that having a formal education can be beneficial.However in my opinion nothing beats having actual  in the field hands on experience.

   There is no doubt that experience is important but many unforeseen problems have occurred due to lack of understanding of theory and lack of applicable experience. "Mr Chips" comes to mind, he was very conscientious technician who ran into problems when he did not recognize the difference between actual and indicated dose. He corrected that problem since then and though he was a good technician then from some perspectives he is a better one today. Those who gain their experience as RadTechs tend to gain an understanding of theory whether they can articulate it well or not, and sometimes that experience is related to a facility or type of facility. A PWR would like see more PWR experience than BWR and visa versa. DOE experience does not always translate well and a Sr Tech from DOE with many years may find some difficulty in moving over. There is a reason that very limited decon experience is allowed when reviewing a techs resume, the experience is limited. Reference Jerry Hiatt's guide to acceptable experience that is used by many utilities.


Table 1:Guidelines for Acceptable Experience for Health Physics Technicians in "Responsible" Positions at Nuclear Power Stations
Job/Experience Type   Credit
Navy ELT (non-overhaul)   1:1 up to I year
Navy ELT (overhaul)   1:1 no limit
Shipyard/Tender RadCon    1:1 no limit
National Laboratory   1:1 no limit
Fuel Reprocessing/Plutonium Production   1:1 no limit
NPP Sr. or Jr. HP Tech    1:1 no limit
NPP Dosimetry Tech   1:1 up to 6 months
NPP Respiratory Protection Tech   1:1 up to 6 months
NPP Count Room Tech    1:1 up to 6 months
NPP Control Point Monitor   1:1 up to 3 months
NPP Laundry Monitor    1:1 up to 3 months
NPP Decon (with surveys)   1:1 up to 3 months
NPP General Employee Training HP Instructor   1:1 up to 6 months
NPP HP Tech Instructor    1: 1 up to 1 year
Radioactive Facility Decommissioning   Case-by-case
Miscellaneous HP Work at Other Facilities   Case-by-case

All I'm saying is that before the utility's go looking to some college for workers...why not look right in their own back yard for those with valuable hands on experience.

  I know my answer will not set well and you may have much more valuable experience in some ways but it may not be the experience that a facility values from a practical point of view or from a licensee's point of view to satisfy regulators.

[GLW]

   There is no doubt that experience is important but many unforeseen problems have occurred due to lack of understanding of theory and lack of applicable experience. "Mr Chips" comes to mind, he was very conscientious technician who ran into problems when he did not recognize the difference between actual and indicated dose. He corrected that problem since then and though he was a good technician then from some perspectives he is a better one today. Those who gain their experience as RadTechs tend to gain an understanding of theory whether they can articulate it well or not, and sometimes that experience is related to a facility or type of facility. A PWR would like see more PWR experience than BWR and visa versa. DOE experience does not always translate well and a Sr Tech from DOE with many years may find some difficulty in moving over. There is a reason that very limited decon experience is allowed when reviewing a techs resume, the experience is limited. Reference Jerry Hiatt's guide to acceptable experience that is used by many utilities.


Table 1:Guidelines for Acceptable Experience for Health Physics Technicians in "Responsible" Positions at Nuclear Power Stations
Job/Experience Type   Credit
Navy ELT (non-overhaul)   1:1 up to I year
Navy ELT (overhaul)   1:1 no limit
Shipyard/Tender RadCon    1:1 no limit
National Laboratory   1:1 no limit
Fuel Reprocessing/Plutonium Production   1:1 no limit
NPP Sr. or Jr. HP Tech    1:1 no limit
NPP Dosimetry Tech   1:1 up to 6 months
NPP Respiratory Protection Tech   1:1 up to 6 months
NPP Count Room Tech    1:1 up to 6 months
NPP Control Point Monitor   1:1 up to 3 months
NPP Laundry Monitor    1:1 up to 3 months
NPP Decon (with surveys)   1:1 up to 3 months
NPP General Employee Training HP Instructor   1:1 up to 6 months
NPP HP Tech Instructor    1: 1 up to 1 year
Radioactive Facility Decommissioning   Case-by-case
Miscellaneous HP Work at Other Facilities   Case-by-case



  I know my answer will not set well and you may have much more valuable experience in some ways but it may not be the experience that a facility values from a practical point of view or from a licensee's point of view to satisfy regulators.

Things change:

ANSI/ANS-3.1-1993;R1999;W2009 (R=Reaffirmed, W=Withdrawn): Selection, Qualification, and Training of Personnel for Nuclear Power Plants

http://www.new.ans.org/store/i_240188

some things never were what you thought they were:

ANSI/ANS-15.4-2007: Selection and Training of Personnel for Research Reactors

http://www.new.ans.org/store/i_240272/r_a

and the new comes in:

NEI 06-13A [Revision 2]

Template for an Industry Training Program Description

http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML0909/ML090910554.pdf

as always, refer to your NRC license for the requirements where you work,...

[Marlin]

Things change:

ANSI/ANS-3.1-1993;R1999;W2009 (R=Reaffirmed, W=Withdrawn): Selection, Qualification, and Training of Personnel for Nuclear Power Plants

http://www.new.ans.org/store/i_240188

some things never were what you thought they were:

ANSI/ANS-15.4-2007: Selection and Training of Personnel for Research Reactors

http://www.new.ans.org/store/i_240272/r_a

and the new comes in:

NEI 06-13A [Revision 2]

Template for an Industry Training Program Description

http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML0909/ML090910554.pdf

as always, refer to your NRC license for the requirements where you work,...

I think you missed it. ANSI standards are vague and the interpretation I cited is an unofficial recommendation of equivalent experience that is used to one extent or another by utilities for contractors.

ANS Issues Clarification on ANSI/ANS-3.1-1993;R1999, "Selection,
Qualification, and Training of Personnel for Nuclear Power Plants."
(Nuclear News, October 2005)
Inquiry:
ANSI/ANS-3.1-1993;R1999 provides guidelines for the selection of personnel at
nuclear power plants. What are the criteria for the person(s) making the selection of the
personnel being hired and determining the accrued time for an individual being
promoted, such as from junior technician to senior technician?
Response:
ANSI/ANS-3.1-1993;R1999 does not address explicitly the qualifications of those
personnel hiring, selecting, or promoting individuals for particular positions at a nuclear
power plant. Nor does it address details such as types of technicians. The working group
believed it was important to permit those making these appointments to be able to
exercise flexibility and management judgment.
In developing the standard, it was assumed that the education and the accrued
time for personnel under consideration would be available from the plant's human
resources function (or verified by that function in the case of a new hire).
This standard sets forth criteria for all supervisory and management personnel at
a plant (except for corporate officers). It was assumed in preparing the standard that one
of these individuals would perform the hiring, selection, or promotion of all other
personnel at the plant. Therefore, the qualifications of personnel making the selection
are established by the standard.

http://www.new.ans.org/store/i_240188

   If you notice there is no mention of HP techs, ANSI 3.1 is more broad and each facility can be different  in it's interpretation. Licenses frequently reference the standards that are later fleshed out by procedure. The issue being discussed is the standard for contract HP personnel and the 1999 ANSI standard is not withdrawn only the 2009 version. But all of this is not new to these forums.

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,4395.0.html

[Marlin]

some things never were what you thought they were:

ANSI/ANS-15.4-2007: Selection and Training of Personnel for Research Reactors

http://www.new.ans.org/store/i_240272/r_a

If he goes to a research reactor this may be important.

Template for an Industry Training Program Description

http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML0909/ML090910554.pdf

In case you missed it ANSI 3.1 is referenced in this publication.

[GLW]

I think you missed it. ANSI standards are vague and the interpretation I cited is an unofficial recommendation of equivalent experience that is used to one extent or another by utilities for contractors.......

I missed nothing,...

Newer entries into the RP discipline are often looking for a regimented this equals that, coast to coast standard for what is an 18.1 or 3.1 or 3.1/5/7, etc.,....

In only the vaguest of terms,....there isn't one,.....

Which is why a dirt pounder at a DnD can get paid and termed to be a senior and get pretty sold on himself only to be devastated after six years or so when the DnD is over and the best job he can land is Jr. RP at a utility outage making a third to half what he thought he was worth,....

In the last three or four posts the less experienced should be getting the idea that until you have enough time and enough varied experiences it's a loosely defined crap shoot of supply and demand,....

The oft quoted "Jerry Hiatt" guidelines are one of the better guidelines referred to by arguably the largest RP staff augmentation companies in this country,...

A couple of TMI Unit 2's and everybody's a senior, as allowed by the license and tech specs,...

And you're right, this topic of quals for RP has been beat to death for years in these forums,...

The puzzling part is that nearly every other discipline seems to get it that the licensee determines who is qualified and the criteria may vary from licensee to licensee,...

But RP's are just, well,..................RP's,...

(do the emoticons help you out there old buddy? )

[Marlin]

I missed nothing,...

  Then perhaps a little off topic I responded to a specific post by mkruse on why his experience was not viewed in a better light for an ex-deconner looking for an HP job as a contractor in a commercial power plant.

 

The oft quoted "Jerry Hiatt" guidelines are one of the better guidelines referred to by arguably the largest RP staff augmentation companies in this country,...

As you pointed out the licensee sets the standard, the contractor delivers the contractual requirements.

But RP's are just, well,..................RP's,...

Each according to his or her own talents.    Spock on new trainees (and Karl Marx on everyone)

[mkruse]

Again,I'm not knocking the value of having a formal education on theory or fundamentals.It would be a benefit for many even in the RP Field to have some sort of training,as far as training or theory as mentioned earlier..well one of the requirements is a successfully passing of the NUF,and most plants dont require a JR to do so.However i took the opportunity to take and successfully passing the test with a modest 92% And again I'm not saying I'm a super tech or have years of being a tech under my belt.But what i do offer is many years of both PWR and BWR experience.. in the RP related Field.I have done surveys as a decon tech,monitored my own exposure with the instruments for reading  dose rates.i have a good understanding of how to control the spread of contamination no matter what form it may be.i have counted smears,understand beta readings,gamma exposure,alpha emitters.radon daughters,etc etc.and again I'm not saying I'm a super tech nor have years of actual being a RP tech under my belt.Again what i do have is a little more than just basic understanding on RP techniques and theory.it would be nice however if they the utility and requiters would take that into consideration when passing you up for jobs that I may actually be a asset.

[fiveeleven]

If you were to be viewed on an equal playing field as a more experienced RPT, you will definitely need to either explain or rethink the whole "exposer" thing as this covers a fairly large spectrum of applications, some of which are illegal in most states. Also the instruments that were used for "reading dose" may need to be looked into, unless of course you were looking into the pocket of you PCs. Good Luck.

[mkruse]

my mistake didn't mean to say dose!! and what is there to explain about exposure?? i dint understand what your asking?? once again I'm not saying I'm a super tech..i was making a point,that i have a little more than just basic RP fundamental knowledge on RP techniques..the basic concept of ALARA effects every worker out there,and we as RP group are there to communicate radiological hazards that exist or potentially exist.So again I'm not understanding what you were referring to by explaining exposure???

[retired nuke]

my mistake didn't mean to say dose!! and what is there to explain about exposer?? i dint understand what your asking?? once again I'm not saying I'm a super tech..i was making a point,that i have a little more than just basic RP fundamental knowledge on RP techniques..the basic concept of ALARA effects every worker out there,and we as RP group are there to communicate radiological hazards that exist or potentially exist.So again I'm not understanding what you were referring to by explaining exposer???

Exposer - that guy on the corner in the trench coat.
Exposure - Radiation recieved by worker.

Expectations for proper use of English are high on this board.

[mkruse]

my bad!! exposure..i hope this sets things straight!!

[GLW]

Exposer - that guy on the corner in the trench coat.
Exposure - Radiation recieved by worker.

Expectations for proper use of English are high on this board.

Technically, that would be occupational exposure,......

[retired nuke]

Technically, that would be occupational exposure,......

was trying to keep it simple... 

[Chimera]

Which is why a dirt pounder at a DnD can get paid and termed to be a senior and get pretty sold on himself only to be devastated after six years or so when the DnD is over and the best job he can land is Jr. RP at a utility outage making a third to half what he thought he was worth,....

And, just to play "devil's advocate", that is also why someone who has only worked commercial nukes and termed to be a senior and pretty sold on himself is devastated after six years or so when the D&D world considers him to be a novice with little to no relavant experience.  While the basics of the craft are the same regardless of the environment, the environments are sufficiently different that the Techs "experience" doesn't always roll into the new environment.

[GLW]

And, just to play "devil's advocate", that is also why someone who has only worked commercial nukes and termed to be a senior and pretty sold on himself is devastated after six years or so when the D&D world considers him to be a novice with little to no relavant experience.  While the basics of the craft are the same regardless of the environment, the environments are sufficiently different that the Techs "experience" doesn't always roll into the new environment.

yeah, mebbe so, I think the transition is easier from power plants to DnD,....

[Eric_Bartlett]

And, just to play "devil's advocate", that is also why someone who has only worked commercial nukes and termed to be a senior and pretty sold on himself is devastated after six years or so when the D&D world considers him to be a novice with little to no relavant experience.  While the basics of the craft are the same regardless of the environment, the environments are sufficiently different that the Techs "experience" doesn't always roll into the new environment.

To be honest with ya, in the 24 yrs I've been do'n this I've never seen a non-commercial or D&D site take a commercial qualified SHP as anything less than a SHP whereas the commercial world is not to keen on taking a non-commercial or D&D SHP as a SHP until said tech has at least 6-12 mo's commercial under his/her belt.   Not saying it doesnt happen, just never seen it.  

[twinturbo427]

Exposer - that guy on the corner in the trench coat.
Exposure - Radiation recieved by worker.

Expectations for proper use of English are high on this board.

and that whole "I" before "E" except after "C"rule...

Sorry Dad...I couldn't help myself.

[ranbo66]

Eric, In response to comment about 2013 being a rough year for all RP's, what would you recommend as additional measures one could take to get maximum employment as a Jr. RP this year. I don't mind short term assignments and I am open to all suggestions. Five kids eat a lot of food!

Thanks.

[gravy58]

A Jr is a Jr. is a Jr. When you make Sr and do your time, then the industry will call you a Sr.
Non co and D&D Techs are not working around a running Reactors, Humm, makes a difference, just ask anyone in Japan.
In the mean time if you need money, go D.O.E. Other wise take as many outages as you can and get over it.   

[mkruse]

I believe you missed my point...if i could work as many outages as i want i would do so..yes i understand...Jr's are not in high demand..which is the reason why i made this post!!