Question on denial, and getting another job

[NEnukeGuy]

In Dec. 2012 I went to try a different position, at a different plant.  I imagined that gaining access shouldn't be a big deal, after all I already had access somewhere else.  However, in the process of attempting to gain access, I was denied.  They didn't say a word, they just took me to a room and told me to sign a piece of paper.  I asked why was I denied and she said that she didn't know the details.  All she knew was what was written on the sheet which was "Psychologist recommendation".  She wouldn't tell me anything, she just said "sign the paper".

I was stunned.  I had worked at two different plants, in Ops and Engineering, never was I questioned.  My ethics were never questioned.  I never failed a FFD test.  I've never had a problem with the law, or drugs, alcohol, anything like that.

I was only told that you can't work here, nor any of their other plants for a year.  And I could request a review.  You can bet I did but the guy never spoke with me.  All he did was look at the notes she took and the conclusions she made and went along with them.  Who knows what else was said between the two.

Well I went to look for a new job but the problem that I kept running into is that the new plant was going to honor that dismissal, and I would have to wait for a year to work for them as well.
I've had managers who sounded like they were happy to talk to me only to cut the conversation short after they find out that I was denied access from somewhere.  I never hear from them again.
That happens a lot with recruters.  I've even had one recruter start yelling at me when he found out I had been denied.  It seems like no one wants to deal with it.

My questions:  Is getting denied really that big of a deal?  I understand that its definitely something that needs to be discussed but come on.  Other people have been denied, yes?

It's been a year.  Do I even have to mention the denial?  I am eligible for hire.

If I have to (and I do imagine that I have to) how do you go about speaking about it?  I'm not all about "denial", I've done a lot of good things the last five years.

Thank you.

[Fermi2]

Yes it means that much.

[NEnukeGuy]

Okay, I can see that it means that much.  Although I do not see how it means as much as getting yelled at by strangers.

People come back from this.  They must.

Or am I done?  My degree is tailored to the nuclear industry.  I would lose a lot of time/money obtaining something else.  I love the nuclear industry and I really don't want to leave.
It seems a shame.

[Fermi2]

In todays day and age with nukes out of work due to plant closings I doubt it can be overcome.

[NEnukeGuy]

Great, thank you for the input.  I was worried as much.
Time to go back to school.  What a waste of time this all was.

[BuddyThePug]

Great, thank you for the input.  I was worried as much.
Time to go back to school.  What a waste of time this all was.

There are plenty of places that will hire a nuclear engineer to do other than nuclear work. Why not invest some time checking around first?

[NEnukeGuy]

I really wanted to go back to a plant, as I really enjoy that work.  I will admit that most of my applications have been towards plants and not vendors or other engineering.

What applications I have sent to "other" engineering I've been told that my experience and their work are just too far apart.  But I'll send much more away from Nuke and go to Nuke vendors.  A paycheck is better than no paycheck, I believe.  It just really sounds silly to throw out all that education and experience due to a 10 minute conversation.  If I were an employer I would at least say "well let's see if he can pass". 

[Marlin]

I asked why was I denied and she said that she didn't know the details.  All she knew was what was written on the sheet which was "Psychologist recommendation".  She wouldn't tell me anything, she just said "sign the paper".

   Did you take the MMPI and/or see the Psychologist in person? Perhaps Graphic, one of our Subject Matter Experts who posts here, will weigh in on this. If it was just MMPI you may have an out. I don't know what your options are to challenge this but something does not sound right here.

[NEnukeGuy]

I've spoken with him a few times on the matter and he's been very helpful.  I've sent him another PM with more questions, I'm sure he'll be a big help.
I took the MMPI and then spoke with the psychologist in person.  I thought it would be a 'no nevermind' considering all I've done the last five years was go to work and then go home.  She certainly didn't raise an eyebrow..

Considering 'something not sounding right', when I called the NRC about it they told me that I shouldn't have signed the document.  But she told me that she didn't know anything, and told me to sign it and leave.  What could I do?  I hadn't/havn't done anything wrong.  I thought it would all be sorted in the next few days.  Foolish me.  And that's why I'm asking the questions.  I want to make the right decisions now.  If I knew someone could do that to your career I would've just stayed at my old job.

[Dinerp]

 I had a similar situation in 1986. I was employed at a Fossil Plant and I bid on position at a Nuke Plant with the same company. I went through the testing, interview and I was awarded the job. I filled all background check forms, had my physical exam, and took the MMPI. I kept waiting for 8 months and I got a letter that says I was denied access for one of the 3 areas I mentioned. I questioned and I was told we are not allowed to tell you the specific reason. I was not satisfied with that answer and I went to my HR Rep. to find out if I can ever work at a Nuke Plant. The HR rep was able to find out that it was the MMPI and I was told I can try to apply for security clearance again after 2 years. 2 years later I bid on a different position and I got access. After I got to the site, people were taking the MMPI multiple times without passing. That's a whole another story.

[Fermi2]

Rules have changed a bit. As has the environment.

[Graphic]

Sounds like you were denied based off of your MMPI. It isn't something that really happens a lot but I have seen it before. However, I don't understand why you had to take the MMPI if you had current/recent access at another plant? The only way you would be required to take the MMPI is if you have never been badged or if it was over a year since your last access. They also do 5 year re-investigations for people who have had continuous access and you would be required to take the MMPI then as well.

It isn't something that will get you from a nuclear plant forever. When you fill out your phq it will ask if you have ever been denied and you will need to list it. This information will be in PADS anyways, but if you don't list it then look for another year denial.

I certainly wouldn't give up my whole nuclear career over a denial from an MMPI

[NEnukeGuy]

Right, this is what I'd expect.  I did have five years continous access but I believe I was told that this was for the "critical group", as I was going into a SRO class.

I'm not looking to deceive anyone or skirt any requirements, I was only curious on the real life view on this so I can decide what to do next.
It's logical to me that it would be a strong negative considering all the nuke workers who are fresh off a plant closure (another shame), but it's also logical (to me) that it shouldn't be a death sentence.

Thanks everyone for their input/help.

[Graphic]

I left out the critical group as they are typically given a mandatory interview with the psych regardless of anything else due to the nature of the work.

Either way, it isn't a death sentence.

[jams723]

What company?

[Fermi2]

Until now I have never heard of anyone losing his access due to the MMPI or Psyche Appointment,

I think, his biggest issue will not be whether he can get it back or not. The biggest issue will be getting past the hiring manager.

[Graphic]

Until now I have never heard of anyone losing his access due to the MMPI or Psyche Appointment,

I think, his biggest issue will not be whether he can get it back or not. The biggest issue will be getting past the hiring manager.

It's definitely rare. I don't think I've ever seen anyone who worked for the utility get denied -- seems like it was always a contractor.

You are right though his biggest hurdle might be the hiring manager. I still feel like he should be able to find work again.. I've seen much worse get rehired.

[61nomad]

That T/F question "my sex life is satisfactory" is a tough one. If you answer TRUE, you are either a liar or a deviant, so I would go with FALSE.    The question "I am sometimes possessed by evil spirits" should always be answered FALSE

[Marlin]

That T/F question "my sex life is satisfactory" is a tough one. If you answer TRUE, you are either a liar or a deviant, so I would go with FALSE.

When grading the MMPI there are "good lies" and "bad lies". I don't think this one hurts you that much

The question "I am sometimes possessed by evil spirits" should always be answered FALSE

This one could be hard stop.



   In the 80s at an outage a young ex-Navy Nuke showed up too happy on the MMPI. When he went to the Psych he explained that he just got out of the Navy was making three times as much money, loved his new job and was going to marry his High School sweetheart in the near future. The Psych told him to get to work.
   This is part of the reason I am a little bewildered with OPs predicament denying him access on the test alone. If you do a little research you can see that much of the test is linked to the takers age, environment, and history. I am not questioning the test it has proven itself and has been upgraded several times, I just don't understand a denial without the followup.

   No it was not me. 

[Fermi2]

My last MMPI the Shrink at first thought I was an introverted paranoid.
He based this on the following. I indicated when I was making big decisions I preferred to be alone.
And that I answered someone is talking aboit me right now in an affirmative fashion.
And that I answered someone is probably angry at me in the affirmative.

I explained, I like to think alone as I am the best thinker I know.

That I have a family and I am an SM at work so year probably someone is talking about me.

And that I have a wife and I am an SM so yeah I probably pissed someone off.

He then said you certainly don't seem introverted or paranoid. Then suggested I start a Licensed Operator Support group.

I told him I'd get laughed out of the control room.

Oh yeah I'm not afraid of dirt!

[Ksheed]

The only way you would be required to take the MMPI is if you have never been badged or if it was over a year since your last access. They also do 5 year re-investigations for people who have had continuous access and you would be required to take the MMPI then as well.

I just did my 5-year last calendar year and was not required to retake the MMPI.

[Fermi2]

I was an SRO.  I had to take an MMPI every 5 years. I only saw the shrink once. I'm pretty certain they made that mandatory in the mid 2000-2010 Time frame.

Still I have yet to see anyone lose access because of the shrink. Very strange.

[Smart People]

One told me to join MENSA. then he told me I had an addictive personality. I said "take a good look Doc, it's probably food."

[Graphic]

I just did my 5-year last calendar year and was not required to retake the MMPI.

You are right, procedure wise it technically isn't required unless you fall in one of the categories below. Not every utility is going to be the same of course but some require it for whatever reason it may be. Like I've said before they can always go above and beyond any required procedures if they feel fit to do so. For whatever reason a lot of people tend to like to retake it after they haven't in a while or just want to get out of work for a little while because the MMPI isn't timed it just has to be finished in one day. Some utilities are talking about switching to the PAI which is a different test with about 350 questions.. but I'm not sure how far that has gotten.  



(1) Individuals who have extensive knowledge of defensive strategies and design and/or implementation of the plant's defense strategies, including—

(i) Site security supervisors;

(ii) Site security managers;

(iii) Security training instructors; and

(iv) Corporate security managers;

(2) Individuals in a position to grant an applicant unescorted access or unescorted access authorization, including site access authorization managers;

(3) Individuals assigned a duty to search for contraband or other items that could be used to commit radiological sabotage ( i.e., weapons, explosives, incendiary devices);

(4) Individuals who have access, extensive knowledge, or administrative control over plant digital computer and communication systems and networks as identified in § 73.54, including—

(i) Plant network systems administrators;

(ii) IT personnel who are responsible for securing plant networks; or

(5) Individuals qualified for and assigned duties as: armed security officers, armed responders, alarm station operators, response team leaders, and armorers as defined in the licensee's or applicant's Physical Security Plan; and reactor operators, senior reactor operators and non-licensed operators. Non-licensed operators include those individuals responsible for the operation of plant systems and components, as directed by a reactor operator or senior reactor operator. A non-licensed operator also includes individuals who monitor plant instrumentation and equipment and principally perform their duties outside of the control room.

[Ksheed]

You are right, procedure wise it technically isn't required unless you fall in one of the categories below. Not every utility is going to be the same of course but some require it for whatever reason it may be. Like I've said before they can always go above and beyond any required procedures if they feel fit to do so. For whatever reason a lot of people tend to like to retake it after they haven't in a while or just want to get out of work for a little while because the MMPI isn't timed it just has to be finished in one day. Some utilities are talking about switching to the PAI which is a different test with about 350 questions.. but I'm not sure how far that has gotten. 



(1) Individuals who have extensive knowledge of defensive strategies and design and/or implementation of the plant’s defense strategies, including—

(i) Site security supervisors;

(ii) Site security managers;

(iii) Security training instructors; and

(iv) Corporate security managers;

(2) Individuals in a position to grant an applicant unescorted access or unescorted access authorization, including site access authorization managers;

(3) Individuals assigned a duty to search for contraband or other items that could be used to commit radiological sabotage ( i.e., weapons, explosives, incendiary devices);

(4) Individuals who have access, extensive knowledge, or administrative control over plant digital computer and communication systems and networks as identified in § 73.54, including—

(i) Plant network systems administrators;

(ii) IT personnel who are responsible for securing plant networks; or

(5) Individuals qualified for and assigned duties as: armed security officers, armed responders, alarm station operators, response team leaders, and armorers as defined in the licensee’s or applicant’s Physical Security Plan; and reactor operators, senior reactor operators and non-licensed operators. Non-licensed operators include those individuals responsible for the operation of plant systems and components, as directed by a reactor operator or senior reactor operator. A non-licensed operator also includes individuals who monitor plant instrumentation and equipment and principally perform their duties outside of the control room.

I don't fit into any of those categories, so that explains why. Thanks for the clarification on the requirements.