Budget Cuts Threaten Training Reactor at Knolls Atomic Power Lab

[HeavyD]

http://nuclearstreet.com/nuclear_power_industry_news/b/nuclear_power_news/archive/2014/03/25/budget-cuts-threaten-training-reactor-at-knolls-atomic-power-lab-032502.aspx#.UzKd4vldUuc

[spekkio]

If they're planning on keeping the current NNP training program model, I sure hope that this doesn't go through. The fleet was having a hard enough time getting new nukes with 4 prototypes.

If this does go through, could it be a sign that the training pipeline is eventually in for significant changes?

[GLW]

meh,...

thrashed this out almost two years ago and quite a bit before that too,...

it was a good thread that ran a very long time,....

Then again, the current anecdote is the fleet is thinning them out as much as the pipeline nowadays.

Is this an inaccurate observation?

It is mostly acquired from the number of posters here being booted for medical, and sad panda, and etc., etc.,

To the point though, if the fleet can train pilots without a CVT why do the nukes need prototypes and MTS's?

We're talking about cracking up multimillion dollar aircraft on billion dollar flight decks as opposed to turning the wrong valve, paralleling out of phase or touching the shim switch without performing a repeat back first,...

Do I (Joe taxpayer) really need multimillion dollar investments year after year just so you (Joe sailor) don't feel a little intimidated with your first real life TG startup?

I mean really, I qualified on the D1G with a D2W core and a nifty thing called a DFT all of which was slave to a demon known as the HAGAN cabinet and none of which were to be found anywhere on a 637 or 616 class with an S5W/S3GC3 propulsion plant where I spent 1293 days underway on nuclear power.

I did enjoy the working vacation in upstate New York though, prototype was one of my top three stints during my adventure in the USN.

I'm not thinking so,...

[BuddyThePug]

If they're planning on keeping the current NNP training program model, I sure hope that this doesn't go through. The fleet was having a hard enough time getting new nukes with 4 prototypes.

If this does go through, could it be a sign that the training pipeline is eventually in for significant changes?

OJT in the fleet. Cuts six months of eating for free, DUIs, failed romance failout, etc. from pipeline. Allows fleet to ADSEP the sad pandas and BNEQ non-quals before the all-important 3 years Active Duty served benchmark.

As the bald dude in the background would say, "make it so!"

[spekkio]

I am out of the loop on shore duty whether there are plans to do it or not, but if there was a guy who would be willing to revamp the training pipeline given a compelling reason to do so, ADM Richardson is that guy.

@GLW, I agree with the gist of your post but just a slight correction: Aviators have training aircraft that are substantially cheaper than the real thing to learn the basics and do land-based takeoffs and landings before attempting any of that on a carrier. Think of it as learning to drive grandma's Civic before your Uncle hands you the keys to take his Porsche for a test drive.

I also wouldn't refer to training at prototype as a 'vacation.' Call me a diggit but it was hands down the worst time in the Navy for me.

[DLGN25]

Saratoga Springs is a nice place.  It is not necessarily the best place to train nukes.  If the plants in NY have no meaningful research contribution, shut them down.

Plenty of old submarines that no longer meet tactical needs yet can train nukes and can be put in any port to do the task.  Screw the land locked prototyopes, call the new training plants 'Reserve Fleet' and go for it. 

So screw upstate NY and go where it is less expensive to operate.  Hell, get Bechtel out of it and staff the boat with real Navy engineering crews.  All ahead full and no place to go.  The wives would love it.

Skip prototype and just send the surface guys to the bird farms and let the ships crew filter our the chaff.  They have room for the dead wood.  Heck, if nothing else, the newbees are great for field day.  Use what is left of land based plants to train for the boats.

I say this because in looking back, going from D1G to Bainbridge was a step that was not needed.  Bainbridge had plenty of space to train new guys as I think do the carriers.

Just a thought from an old nuke who drank way to much, yet qualified in the top of the class and now just a tax payer.

[GLW]

@GLW, I agree with the gist of your post but just a slight correction: Aviators have training aircraft that are substantially cheaper than the real thing to learn the basics and do land-based takeoffs and landings before attempting any of that on a carrier. Think of it as learning to drive grandma's Civic before your Uncle hands you the keys to take his Porsche for a test drive.

I know those things, I was conventional before I was nuke,...

There used to be a carrier known as Lexington and a destroyer known as Robert A. Owens,...

And the Navy gets by without either nowadays, heck they get by without me, more amazingly, they get by without Broadzilla,...  

The Navy can get by without NPTUs or whatever they are called nowadays,...

We've waxed on this before, just type "Big Navy" (currently known as ADM Richardson I suppose) in the search box and mine plus others two cents are all over the posts and threads,...

I also wouldn't refer to training at prototype as a 'vacation.' Call me a diggit but it was hands down the worst time in the Navy for me.

Everybody has a different experience,...

The USN was the easiest job I have ever had, show up when you're told, do what you're told, don't leave without somebody saying it's okay to,...

It's all laid out: the expectations, the criteria, the resources, the time, the means and the methods,...

just show up and hit it,...

all that and a paycheck too,...

but then there's that thing about family,...

not so easy on them,....

so, when it's time to go it's time to go,...

no ill will, no regrets, no looking back; sayonara, see you around, and wish you the best,...

I thank you for your service, and all the others standing the watch with you,...

[GLW]

Saratoga Springs is a nice place.  It is not necessarily the best place to train nukes.  If the plants in NY have no meaningful research contribution, shut them down.

Plenty of old submarines that no longer meet tactical needs yet can train nukes and can be put in any port to do the task.  Screw the land locked prototyopes, call the new training plants 'Reserve Fleet' and go for it. 

So screw upstate NY and go where it is less expensive to operate.  Hell, get Bechtel out of it and staff the boat with real Navy engineering crews.  All ahead full and no place to go.  The wives would love it.

Skip prototype and just send the surface guys to the bird farms and let the ships crew filter our the chaff.  They have room for the dead wood.  Heck, if nothing else, the newbees are great for field day.  Use what is left of land based plants to train for the boats.

I say this because in looking back, going from D1G to Bainbridge was a step that was not needed.  Bainbridge had plenty of space to train new guys as I think do the carriers.

Just a thought from an old nuke who drank way to much, yet qualified in the top of the class and now just a tax payer.

Based on the lucid, grammatically proper examples of your past posts to these threads, I surmise the "drinking way to much" aspect of the old nuke may have revisited the "just a tax payer" aspect recently,....

[BetaAnt]

proto-
a combining form meaning "first," "foremost," "earliest form of," used in the formation of compound words.

You guys seem to miss the main point of PROTOtype. It's mission was not only to train NUBs but, to test new components or systems.

1983 Idaho Falls NPTU, A1W prototype was testing the SSN 21 Seawolf advanced core (S6W).

S8G core at Ballston Spa, NY was the test bed for the USS Ohio. We had to run 100% to stay ahead of the operational hours (EFPH) of the boat. NR did not want to run into any unknown condition for an operational core.

Then there was MARF, S1G, S3G core 3, S6G, old Seawolf (SSN 575) S2G core, and others.

It's not about you, it's about the new stuff NNPP comes up with.

Would you rather have a problem with a new reactor at sea where everyone dies?
Or, on land, where you can walk away and have a beer later?

Aviators have the luxury of training on simulated carrier landings (on land at Pensacola NAS) than being tossed onto real landings at sea.

[Marlin]

Skip prototype and just send the surface guys to the bird farms and let the ships crew filter our the chaff.  They have room for the dead wood.  Heck, if nothing else, the newbees are great for field day.  Use what is left of land based plants to train for the boats.

  Mission creep comes to mind, the carrier's mission is readiness and prototypes mission is training. Even your suggestion hints at mission creep by suggesting the trainees become "nuclear janitors". As for the land based prototypes at one time they served a research role. S1W had a number of modifications not on the Nautilus to facilitate testing, I took my first mRad smear in the sample room built above the reactor compartment though I recorded it in uuCi's by cutting the wipe in two until it came on scale then I added the number times I cut it as a multiplier (the Navy way). S5G the USS Narwhal prototype in Idaho was a submarine hull built into a pool to study reactor natural convection in various sea states. Unless we are going to transition to new technology the land based prototypes are too expensive for the benefit they provide.
  The Navy has the best safety record of any nuclear program in the world I would be hesitant to change the formula.

[GLW]

proto-

You guys seem to miss the main point of PROTOtype. It's mission was not only to train NUBs but, to test new components or systems.

testing which could be performed by specifically educated, intensively trained, extensively experienced civilian staff more efficiently than continuously rotating inexperienced classes of nubs,...

civilians which would not need a 100 acre plus Naval Support Activity complete with housing, security forces, security fencing, security gates, medical, dental, dependent services, et al,...

civilians who could make sure there was no operational problem with new reactors before they are put to sea,...

nubs are trained at the MTS also, not cutting edge technology as I understand it, but there is an economy of scale realized vis a vis personnel support requirements,...

Then there was MARF, S1G, S3G core 3, S6G, old Seawolf (SSN 575) S2G core, and others.

as stated earlier, no sailor who trained for six months on MARF operated MARF at sea for six years,...

numerous sailors who trained on D1G for six months never saw a HAGAN cabinet for the remainder of their time in the sea going Navy,...

far too many nubs who trained on S3G SGWLCC found themselves trying to figure out the dance of HAGAN and MFP control for the first time in their lives on a pitching DLGN in the North Pacific,...

which means you're right, prototype was not about you (the nubs), if it was those nubs would have been trained on the equipment they would be expected to operate at sea,...

[GLW]

....The Navy has the best safety record of any nuclear program in the world I would be hesitant to change the formula.

the formula has already changed Marlin,...

the window dressing still looks the same but the contents are very different,...

perhaps it's time for the window dressing to change as well,...

[spekkio]

Which prototype tested DC SS electrical distribution? Which one tested maglev bearings? Which one tested the new VA SGs?

The ohio replacement is due to be built in 3-5 years. Where is the prototype for its plant and components?

[GLW]

Which prototype tested DC SS electrical distribution? Which one tested maglev bearings? Which one tested the new VA SGs?

The ohio replacement is due to be built in 3-5 years. Where is the prototype for its plant and components?

just guessing,...

the CS-1 (ComputerSimulator-1) prototype?!?!?!?



and just to keep it real here, we're focused on KSO in this thread, not KAPL, there's more to KAPL than might be inferred by the OP and it's referenced article....

[Marlin]

the formula has already changed Marlin,...

the window dressing still looks the same but the contents are very different,...

perhaps it's time for the window dressing to change as well,...

   I can't speak for the current contents but if you are advocating termination of prototype training in favor of OJT on an operating ship I would disagree.

[GLW]

   I can't speak for the current contents but if you are advocating termination of prototype training in favor of OJT on an operating ship I would disagree.

the MTSs seem to fill that training filter adequately,...

the prototype as a sailor trainer may very well have run it's course,...

we'll just have to disagree,...

[Marlin]

the MTSs seem to fill that training filter adequately,...

the prototype as a sailor trainer may very well have run it's course,...

we'll just have to disagree,...

Hmmmm... I think we have a linguistic disconnect, I have been using prototype interchangeably with the training units. The discussion was the usefulness of the land based prototypes, dedicated training ship, and OJT onboard an operational ship. I don't think we have any disagreement.

[GLW]

Hmmmm... I think we have a linguistic disconnect, I have been using prototype interchangeably with the training units. The discussion was the usefulness of the land based prototypes, dedicated training ship, and OJT onboard an operational ship. I don't think we have any disagreement.

ahaaaaaaa!!!!!

then the disconnect is that YOU are off-topic!!!!

Enjoy the Day!!!

I already have,...

[Marlin]

Which prototype tested DC SS electrical distribution? Which one tested maglev bearings? Which one tested the new VA SGs?

The ohio replacement is due to be built in 3-5 years. Where is the prototype for its plant and components?

   If you are implying that there is no need for prototypes for current advances in Navy Nuclear propulsion technology I agree. Building prototypes for "proof of concept" is still in use by the DOE they may call them pilot plants or may simply build a smaller version of the full scale to limit financial risk but the concept is still in use for cutting edge technology which Navy nuclear propulsion no longer is. Navy Prototypes were built in the 50s and 60s in a much different engineering environment than today.

[Marlin]

ahaaaaaaa!!!!!

then the disconnect is that YOU are off-topic!!!!

Enjoy the Day!!!

I already have,...

[HeavyD]

As an aside, I completely understand and am aware that the Kesselring run site in New York is only one portion of what KAPL does as a larger entity.  I posted this simply because I, as a retired Navy Nuke, found it interesting and thought that others may as well. 

There would most likely be a negative impact on the flow of new Nukes to the fleet.  The actual extent of that impact, however, is challenging to predict.  If I recall correctly, the pipeline faced delays in training in the neighborhood of 12 months+ for some trainees several years ago, due to material and personnel issues at both Boston Spa and Goose Creek.

As for an alternative to the current "hands-on" portion of the training pipeline, the FIDE (Fleet Interactive Display Equipment, or the Navy's simulator) is in use in both Norfolk and San Diego for the NIMITZ class carriers.  For EOS watchstanding, these would most likely be more than sufficient.

For in-plant watchstanding experience or training, the alternatives are trending towards few.  Perhaps a 12 month stint on a conventional ship, like a big-deck amphib with it's steam plant? 

The discussions here are very enlightening, I must say      

[spekkio]

  If you are implying that there is no need for prototypes for current advances in Navy Nuclear propulsion technology I agree. Building prototypes for "proof of concept" is still in use by the DOE they may call them pilot plants or may simply build a smaller version of the full scale to limit financial risk but the concept is still in use for cutting edge technology which Navy nuclear propulsion no longer is. Navy Prototypes were built in the 50s and 60s in a much different engineering environment than today.

Yes I was implying that in response to whoever said that NPTU serves a dual purpose. That's no longer true in the modern age.

As to the training part, nubs are already receiving the bulk of their training on their first operational ship by their Chiefs/EDMC or Eng/CO. As it should be. There's no mission creep there - training has been a part of successful operational military units since the dawn of written history.

If prototype solely exists as a pre-qualification practical training platform, it's simply not worth the operating cost and manning cost to the fleet. There are better ways to do it, many already highlighted in previous threads. While NPTU might not be 'broke', if it's bleeding $750 million+ dollars a year to train operators when there's a better way to do it, it's going to get a serious look in today's budget environment.

[Marlin]

As to the training part, nubs are already receiving the bulk of their training on their first operational ship by their Chiefs/EDMC or Eng/CO. As it should be. There's no mission creep there - training has been a part of successful operational military units since the dawn of written history.

   True but we have evolved a military that depends on specialized training for all branches. With complaints about the quality of nukes through the current pipeline handing off that responsibility to someone that has that training responsibility as a collateral duty seems a little dubious. Boot camp was all that was required at one time and we trained tank drivers in wooden tanks, and infantry with broom sticks I don't think we want to go back there. (Yes I am exaggerating a bit  ) 

If prototype solely exists as a pre-qualification practical training platform, it's simply not worth the operating cost and manning cost to the fleet. There are better ways to do it, many already highlighted in previous threads. While NPTU might not be 'broke', if it's bleeding $750 million+ dollars a year to train operators when there's a better way to do it, it's going to get a serious look in today's budget environment.

   Trimming the budget is a very valid point but extending the useful life of a nuclear vessel and compressing the pipeline by consolidating schools to shorten the pipeline extending the sea time of nukes seems more reasonable.

"That's just my opinion I could be wrong." D.M.

[spekkio]

I will counter with:

Every Chief/EDMC I've spoken to would rather get a blank slate to mold than what comes out of prototype. Then at least they won't have to wait forever for the gapped [insert billet] just to get someone who can't shift the electric plant in under 15 minutes.

Training for specialization is also nothing new in modern militaries.

As for the pipeline length, I already think that power school is too short. I'd rather see that lengthened to 8 months with a minimum passing score of 3.2, then send them to the fleet. Use more FIDE sessions and PVO mock-ups to teach them the basics.

5 full years of sea duty for nukes? Do you want ANYONE to reenlist? That decision would cost the Navy a lot more in retention problems than it would save in initial training pipeline costs.

[GLW]

....5 full years of sea duty for nukes?..........

5 & 2 was pretty much standard when I was in,...

had to go do something nuclear to avoid it, plus a Page 13 extension,...

....Do you want ANYONE to reenlist?....

oh yeah, I can count by name and past my ten fingers the number of 8 year, E-7 selectees I watched walk away to CivPac or CivLant from just two submarine M-Divs during my time in,...

I could probably list more but,........... I got out,.....  

same old story,....

OBTW,....

half of that is the Navy's fault from a different tack also,...

it's the USN that keeps telling these guys that if they go nuke there's a guaranteed 6 figure salary waiting for them, no strike that, there's a six figure salary hunting them down with gold paved streets and fuzzy bunny rainbow bonus machines after they EAOS,...

in all honesty I was handed a job right out of the USN without even looking, it came looking for me a full two years before I EAOS'd,...

but I'm just lucky that way,...

but it wasn't six figures either,...

more like Cadillac benefits, no travelling ever, and $33,280.00/year plus all the overtime you could ever want at 1.5 over eight and any hours worked on Saturdays, and 2.0 for any hours worked on Sunday,...

which would be about $67K today before overtime,...

above the median and just about average,...

which is really not too bad considering the GI Bill, VA loan accessibility, et al,...

not for an 18YO following his initial six year commitment without any full on shooting wars happening,...

in these days how many 24 YOs are actually starting out at average salary and moving up from there?!?!?!?!?

and without any college loan debt at that,...

I'm just saying,...