how hot is clean?

[alphadude]

MARSSIM is a guide... the DQO process should drive your plans not MARSSIM which has become  "religion in a box!"

Back to the topic, are u looking for signs of pollution or some thumb rules or risk limits to get the job done.

[Shonkatoys]

Marssissms was intended for  small one radionuclide facilities.  To use it at large facilities with multiple radionuclides is a joke in my opinion.  It is also a joke to use 1940's instrumentation to check facilities when there is 21st century technology  available.  But if you have regulators using 1940's technology to check 1940's technology   I guess then  clean is what you get away with and marssisms has so many loop holes the best bet is to just make up numbers ask for your money and hope you dont get caught.   And if you do  get caught then say I  didnt survey there and help the regulator find a clean space.   If the regulator is still not happy ask your client for more money to tell him the regulator is wanting me to more than marrsisms and get paid twice.  Well eventually someone is going to catch on .   Then  we will all have to use 21st century technology and have to do it  right and be accountable.  Until then party hard and chump the client with the 1940's technology and Marssisms.

[alphadude]

well as you know humans are prone to error, and have an attention span of about 20 minutes on mundane tasks such as frisking.

usually the resistance to modern technology is the body shop mentality. YOU mean this will replace 15 techs? That is less money i can charge the customer if you use 3 techs and one machine!!!  Look again at the cost? Its the same ole same ole...

the technology is high right now due to this body shop mentality.  (horses were cheaper than cars if u remember and people were afraid of gasoline.) so, shonkatoys is right, its a statistical crap shoot. but as with MARSSIM and pigs, even a blind pig finds an acorn sometimes!

[Shonkatoys]

Having been a senior tech before, the problem with surveys not being logged somehow as you do them is a human factor one.  You have some techs who try to do the right thing and do accurate surveys.  They usually work together because they take some pride in what they do.  Then you  have the dirt balls who  are the lazy, stupid, latenight drunken party people, alcoholics,  don't give a damn techs etc.  They usually work together.  Thats why I kept my own note book at work to write down exactly where I was,  If you turned these people in  you were the one punished not them.  Thats why I kept my mouth shut and kept a log book.  I have seen the so called snitches run off, not the ones that needed to  be. I have found hot stuff on the 1940's technology when I went back to survey the scum tech areas. I never  heard of one instance where the 21st century technology was found in error. There fore Marssisms is  useless without 21st century technology in my opinion to log and map everything.   The body shops have a hard time filling spots sometimes and will bring back people they know messed up before. Marssims and a Blind squirrel like alpha dude says will find a nut every   once in a while.  I  myself trust in 21st century technology.  So  to answer the question how hot is clean?   You have a few answers,
1. With dirtball techs with 1940's technology instruments that do not log data then it is what you can get away with with a straight face.
2. With good techs with 1940's technology instruments that do not log data it is pretty close to  the set limits.  However with this technology you can not survey as quick   or  get the good data of 21st century technology. You  may  get  a  few hundred  readings a shift .
3. Dirtball techs with 21st century technology,  As Donald Trump says, Your FIRED.
These instruments time stamps, photographs what you survey, calculates the background, etc. If this looks wrong you will probably work one more shift to document this and then>   YOUR FIRED   This is good for Marssisms and the whole nuclear industry!!!!!
4.Good techs with good up to date 21st century equipment take pride in what they do, and do not have to deal with dirtballs for long. They  get great information and  can get right at the limits set forth by the project.  They get  about 100 thousand or more readings a shift.

Well  these  are my answers, feel free to  write more!!!

[raymcginnis]

Cool!  This topic took off! 

I agree with some of this and disagree with other parts of the postings.  I agree that you need people who care about their jobs.  I worked a site once where I was supervising people who had never done HP work ever.  They could care less about what they were measuring and we, the supervising HPs, could not make them care.  It was frustrating.

I worked a job in the 1980s where all I did was frisk walls, floors and ceilings for months, 7days, 12 hours a day.  I guarantee that I found way more than one acorn or one nut.  I must be a special nut case myself, LOL.

We have all 20+ year people who all love their job and they are all good at it, including our contractor technicians.  MARSSIM works fine for us.  The NUREG calculations include the surveyor MDC factor to account for standard Human error.  Nothing can account for people not caring about what they are doing though. 

We have pretty decent equipment, but we still sometimes use 1" NaI detectors to back up our soil sample data (along with a modern GPS large detector system).  But it works!  The confirmatory regulator groups rarely find anything behind us.

As far as small one isotope facilities, I disagree.  You can choose a surrogate isotope.  If you base you scan MDC on that isotope and can do your calculations to prove that you can detect that isotope, then whole site is clean, you are set.  The calculations for surrogates are in MARSSIM to tell you how to do this.  I recently proved that all you have to do is the sum of fractions based on individual isotope MDCs.  You come up with the same surrogate isotope MDC to do if you use calculations with the MARSSIM equations.  We have about 16 isotopes for a given facility, but I alway pick the predominate gamma emitter.  It works every time.

We also use our old pre-MARSSIM statistical method as a backup.  We created this program before most people even knew what D&D was.  It uses a statitical method called cumulative probability.  We created software and it is recently improved.  You can get it as freeware from my website: http://www.radprocalculator.com/software.aspx

It is called Cumulative Probabbility Plot

It is a plotting program that uses these statitical methods and is useful not only for releaseing sites, but interpreting large sets of data, whether nuclear or not (building widgets).

[atomicarcheologist]

I have to admit total ignorance when it comes to D&D work, but if 100K/100cm² of Co60 is releasable anywhere, then what the hell are we worried about releasing items and areas that are over 1Kdpm/100cm² in the commercial end of the world? Or for that matter having release limits of 'No detectible activity' even considered if we are just going to release it all later at 100K?

That does not compute...

OK, I may have gone overboard with the 100K Co60.  When we were sitting around (originally, please note starting post) finishing off the meager stash of XX and 1812 in the local tavern, we started messing with numbers.  I believe the we figured we could do at least 50K dpm/100cm2 direct read. 
This exercise did include the assumptions that it would be a single spot of residual, there would be no smearable, and singular isotope.  These were in place to preclude taunting and torment from those whose evening's intake may have adjusted their mentality from the analytical to the subversive.
Anyone care to play with us?  Not that the etheral discussions ongoing through this thread are misguided, quite the contrary as they are most welcome in this exchange of information and ideas and hasten the advancement of the Health Physics disicpline on the street. 

[Shonkatoys]

Forgot to mention when the Job site has numerous HP jobs to include job coverage and survey.  The survey techs are usually the bottom of the barrel techs who can not do anything else.  This also makes surveys suspect if they are not recorded with 21st century instruments.  Half the techs that did primarily surveys that I know I would not want to approve their surveys.  So how does Marssims fit into this equation? How hot is clean. Depends if a drunk even surveyed it or not. seen  over 1 million dpm come back and the tech sweared they surveyed it.  They let him slide cause he was one of the boys. So 1 million or more dpm for dirtballs is the answer. The limits set forth by the facility if it is recorded properly with 21st century technology.  So  like I said party hard because I believe the Marssisms game is about over, unless properly recorded.

[alphadude]

gee shonka toys now everybodies using a CFD (cumulative frequency distribution) imagine that!  ole Joe's preaching is finally sinkin in!!!! Next thing you know they will use a weiner filter. 

survey it all and let god sort it out!

[raymcginnis]

Wow, I was right!  There are no standards, really.  These replies made my head spin.  I had to go back to the original question.  You are all right.  The main thing is to assess every part of your site (facility, soil and groundwater) and then look at who is driving your limits.  Then you negotiate with them based on you analysis using RESRAD (usually) to determine limits.  Yes, if building license termination is the goal, that is a whole different ballgame, but if there is residual contamination left outside the facility, you may only get the building taken off the license.  You'll still have a license for everything else, unless you prove that it is all below your established limits.

We are trying to release our entire 1900 acre site.  We are very close to being finished, but we are going to have to go back and do MARSSIM soil samples under every radiological facility that we demolished in order to get to the end.

[Shonkatoys]

Marssims,I no longer work for a company that puts out a poor and questionable product. This company has been caught before shipping out "Hot Stuff"  Thats where I got my over 1 million DPM 100cm2 from.  They have been caught  doing this and other items. They however still get contracts.  This reminds me of steroids and baseball.  Baseball is now checking and putting out punishments.  However these punishments are  not enough and are laughable.  The company I  use to  work   keeps  getting caught but,  unfortunately nothing is done about it.  I  am glad you work for a decent company as I do now. But as I said before, unless everything is logged then marssims is a joke.  My company now can give you acres of maps in  color of contamination in large buildings or gamma spec with specific radionuclides over large tracts of land.  This is the best data logger.  Yes this may have existed before 2000, However I doubt it was anywhere close to what it is now and surely 1940's geiger muellers can not even compete against it. The question is do the regulators really want to  protect the public,  The company I worked for never was found out by a regulator to be wrong to my knowledge, but in fact was found out by people who were sent their product.
How many people just assumed they were given a good product and just took it?  One wonders!!!!

[raymcginnis]

Shonkatoys

I can feel your pain, but man I can never be as anti-nuclear as you are.  I once worked at an x-ray machine manufacturer where I had a tld, but no instrument to even check to see if the test box was leaking.  I have heard from old friends who just went back on the road.  They are trying to turn HP techs into robots, so everyone takes a smear the exact same way. 

All of the cool old techs, like me, took house jobs at places that they liked.  The rent-a-tech pool has been diluted, but there are still good ones out there.  I did a road job just a few years ago.  I can relate to you cynicism, but there were some really good young techs out there too.

Look at the bright side of life!  You are still doing it, even if you have to cover tracks for others not as bright as you!  That speaks for itself!

[alphadude]

shonak toys anti nuke thats a hoot! 

[Shonkatoys]

Alphadude is right!! I am not antinuke.  I  am for doing things right. We can run everything electrical in the United States for the next 700 years at current consumption with just the uranium at Oak Ridge, Paducah and Porthsmouth without digging any more up.  This would be worth 4 Quadrillion dollars.  However this is not going to happen if we reward incompetence and do no check properly.  I believe one way to start is to industry wide have a higher pay scale for NRRPT's as Senior HP's.  Most NRRPT's I work with  take pride in what they do and are far more knowledgeable than a  non NRRPT.  5 dollar differential should be a start.  I know some non NRRPTs would howl about this, but frankly half the seniors that I  have known or more can not pass it in my opinion.  That is why we all have to suffer because standards are not enforced through out or encouraged. The companies that do it right suffer because they do it right. Dirtball companies can bring in dirtballs and just blame it on human factors when they get caught. Hopefully We can generate most of our electrical power with Nuclear.  However this is not going to happen when dirtball HP is an acceptable practice.

[Phurst]

I agree about NRRPT $$$$ (cause I am one) but it doesn't' detract from some of the excellent seniors I have known that weren't mathematical enough to pass the test but could cover a job like a lead blanket and protect the workers better than an egg head that could pass the CHP but couldn't find a hot spot or understand the work flow for an outage. People are people and you can't test ethics and job coverage. 90% of the NRRPT test had nothing to do with power plant outage health physics. Maybe if the pool of technicians were all interconnected so each 'dirtbag' identified at one plant could be noted at another and soon wouldn't be hired by any, it would help. But it won't happen. We're stuck, so just do your best, teach the best, accept only the best, encourage the best, and hope for the best.

[radgal]

I agree about NRRPT $$$$ (cause I am one) but it doesn't' detract from some of the excellent seniors I have known that weren't mathematical enough to pass the test but could cover a job like a lead blanket and protect the workers better than an egg head that could pass the CHP but couldn't find a hot spot or understand the work flow for an outage. People are people and you can't test ethics and job coverage. 90% of the NRRPT test had nothing to do with power plant outage health physics. Maybe if the pool of technicians were all interconnected so each 'dirtbag' identified at one plant could be noted at another and soon wouldn't be hired by any, it would help. But it won't happen. We're stuck, so just do your best, teach the best, accept only the best, encourage the best, and hope for the best.

I agree that smarts doesn't make one ethical or a good HP.  More money for passing the exam is good.  Hard work should be rewarded(I know I'm NRRPT).  But if you do your best and lead by example maybe you'll rub off on the new ones and eventually the dirtballs will retire(hopefully they don't train newbies)

[atomicarcheologist]

If you work with bad techs, that's the fault of the facility management where you are sited.  Bad, dirtball, drunk, whatever, techs should be fired.  Not laid off, fired.  I applaud your attempt to make an extra $5/hr for NRRPT but business dictates that you already make what you are worth and those who are bad should be terminated.  That way, the pool of technicians shirnks and the wages rise, or the really gone tech-heads will flood the market with 21st century technology that requires no human interaction outside of an operator.  But these instruments are coming rapidly, so you might as well get all the $5/hr that you can.
However, since you are all so very much more qualified and technically competent that the average HP technician, would you mind getting back on the track of this thread?  I am looking for ideas exchanging regarding the maximum that you can have intact and have the building released.  All this smoke that's being blown is covering up the mirrors, or is it the glass walls of your career domicile?

[Phurst]

You're right.. Thanks for redirecting us back to the thread. Or perhaps it's dead.

[alphadude]

hey atomic the question has been answered several times.  its nudlide dependent, agency dependent, statistically dependent, politically dependent, and instrument dependent.  now back to the question i asked, are you looking for pollution indications or to apease the regulators?

if you want us to design your DQOs and determine your DCGLs ya got to give up da green$$$$$$$$$$$$$ cha-ching

[Shonkatoys]

Renhack is right, 5,000 and 15,000 for Uranium at DOE facilities,However if this is not good  then  Alpha dude is right also, It is mainly what you can convince the regulator what is right. Renhack and I are working at a facility where they started out with the DOE limit, However they have changed readings above 2 meters to be more than DOE limits.  But DOE has bought off on it.  So therefore it is cool and clean with over 100K at above 2 meters for spots. Below is the official DOE word!!!   But as I have seen it can be changed.

APPENDIX D TO PART 835—SURFACE
CONTAMINATION VALUES
The data presented in appendix D are to be
used in identifying the need for posting of
contamination and high contamination areas
in accordance with § 835.603(e) and (f) and
identifying the need for surface contamination
monitoring and control in accordance
with §§ 835.1101 and 835.1102.
SURFACE CONTAMINATION VALUES 1 IN DPM/100 CM 2
Radionuclide Removable 2 4
Total (Fixed +
Removable) 2,
3
U-nat, U-235, U-238, and associated decay products .........................................................1,000 5,000
Transuranics, Ra-226, Ra-228, Th-230, Th-228, Pa-231, Ac-227, I-125, I-129 .......................... 20 500
Th-nat, Th-232, Sr-90, Ra-223, Ra-224, U-232, I-126, I-131, I-133 ............................................ 200 1,000
Beta-gamma emitters (nuclides with decay modes other than alpha emission or spontaneous
fission) except Sr-90 and others noted above 5 ........................................................................ 1,000 5,000
Tritium and tritiated compounds 6 ................................................................................................. 10,000 N/A
1 The values in this appendix, with the exception noted in footnote 5, apply to radioactive contamination deposited on, but not
incorporated into the interior or matrix of, the contaminated item. Where surface contamination by both alpha-and beta-gammaemitting
nuclides exists, the limits established for alpha-and beta-gamma-emitting nuclides apply independently.
2 As used in this table, dpm (disintegrations per minute) means the rate of emission by radioactive material as determined by
correcting the counts per minute observed by an appropriate detector for background, efficiency, and geometric factors associated
with the instrumentation.
3 The levels may be averaged over one square meter provided the maximum surface activity in any area of 100 cm 2 is less
than three times the value specified. For purposes of averaging, any square meter of surface shall be considered to be above
the surface contamination value if: (1) From measurements of a representative number of sections it is determined that the average
contamination level exceeds the applicable value; or (2) it is determined that the sum of the activity of all isolated spots or
particles in any 100 cm 2 area exceeds three times the applicable value.

[atomicarcheologist]

hey atomic the question has been answered several times.  its nudlide dependent, agency dependent, statistically dependent, politically dependent, and instrument dependent.  now back to the question i asked, are you looking for pollution indications or to apease the regulators?

if you want us to design your DQOs and determine your DCGLs ya got to give up da green$$$$$$$$$$$$$ cha-ching

Alphadude,
I don't want you to design anything for me.  I was sitting around with friends batting the business breeze and thought I'd bring the conversations here. Now, should I use Co60, I think that 50Kdpm/100cm2 will fly as as delicensed based on the dpm/mR/hr formulae that I have rattling around in dusty sections of the cranium.  But since I see little activity here with posters picking their isotopes then I guess my friends and I will have to find another table to have a few with like minded individuals.

[alphadude]

got to run it through the farmer scenario. the formula you may have from some old 108 card don't apply. use the resrad to run the farmer scenario and 10 mr/yr. I think you are mixing apples and oranges at this point.

[SloGlo]

what do you have to run resrad 'n a resident farmer scenario?  wut iffen yer ona site that ain't never gonna revert to farm material?

[alphadude]

its part of the Mad Max scenario- when ya cant figure it out- do the farmer- or if you plan to sell- disclose to the new potential owner- if it stays part of the license- who cares!! when in doubt send it to tennessee and let them frisk it out!

[RAD-GHOST]

ROF-LMAO! 

Alphadude, seems you know the game when it comes to making things go away!  Maybe RESRAD can adopt the factor?  The heading could be,

" If it doesn't Glow, it can Go "! 

Funny how things work in a self regulated state.....

[alphadude]

well you are exactly right- as a purist - any found is a sign of pollution-

but im paid to be a professional risk taker.. as all HPs are. the degree of risk that the client wishes to accept is always a matter of $$$$. fortunately, im in the less than 10 mr/yr risk zone right now which sets ok with my ethics.