Rent a tech Union debate

[alphadude]

the union is not really the way of the future-its an option for power plant workers.  If you treat HP tech as a craft-then union should be the option, if you treat it as a professional status- then education is the option, for it is a well known fact that education and professional employment go hand in hand. So, as you can see the camp is well divided-those with "field experience" tend to look at this as a craft, while those that get trained, educated, "signed off" go the professional route.

In some places technical staff are "quasi-professionals" in others its a craft.. so which side do you go with? craft or professional- 

[alphadude]

hmmm maybe we need Triple A teams to go with the semi pro status... this is taking form ....ITS ALIVE!!

[Laning]

AlphaDude,

My message was to treat your job as a profession. Meaning approach it from a professional standpoint. Be on time, do what your told,keep your mouth shut, don't complain about every little change, take pride in your product, continue to learn and improve, speak intelligently, represent yourself, family, and organization with a modicum of class, etc.

I dont think being professional has anything at all to do with your education level.

[alphadude]

sure it does ask a teen ager 

while I do agree with most of what you say, there are ethics of the professional- keeping your mouth shut and doing what you are told may in fact be considered criminal activity in some cases and against professional ethics. If you mean avoid the rumor mill, gossip etc I agree. Doing what you are told if it is the wrong thing to do has its draw backs if the activity is illegal, hazardous to the environment and personnel etc... but you know all of this 

As for professional, I took it to mean professional status as detailed for employment..

Behaving in a  professional manner is always a good thing.

[SloGlo]

the excellent craft workers are diligently professional in their approach to the work.  lousy management types are dilettante in there approach two work.  neither has much to do with education, but commitment. 

[Old HP]

JJ
You hit on a VERY sore subject when you mentioned the powers that be would get rid of the older (higher priced techs) once the influx of new techs are up to speed (around 10 years).
However the problem is that most at most sites (yours included) there is no pay differential, 3.1 with 3 years is the same as 3.1 with 25 years.
The system has evolved to us serving as just warm bodies with little regard or recognition for what you know or do.

[alphadude]

so I guess education is limited to brick structures?   What is being discussed now is really ethics- which has a lot to do with your education and what mama taught you. Ethics are learned behaviors associated with accepted standards- hmm learning and education wonder if there is a connection?

Slogo the same can be said about technical staff also..lousy technical types are dilettante in there approach two work.  We all know of a few "Uber Techs" dont we?

Old HP this is a sore subject-( age -I guess me and you worked the volcano outage at Trojan?) anyway the standard calls for 3 years and you are qualified.. dont matter what you did or what plant you saved or how many gennies you jumped-(its good to have pride in your skills) but industry has "binned" HP techs nicely into a craft - there is no pay differential, 3.1 with 3 years is the same as 3.1 with 25 years. 

Again, Union or Professional status.. what will it be.. if you work technician you will be held against the ANSI standard and somebody with 4 years experience will still get about the same or the same money as those with 25 years.  My feelings are with a professional status you can move beyond technical and bring in mo money. If I wanted to stay technical-which has its advantages- I would want some protection with a union as I get older.

A demographics survey would be interesting- technicians age vs desire for union. Anybody that has worked management is excluded (the dark side never forgets!)

 

[Marlin]

Ok I'm going to stick my nose in here again. Both sides of the "professional" debate have merit. Keep in mind that a professional my have no education over a High School diploma but hold a position of responsibility and a heavily degreed person with no position is not normally considered a professional. The Plant Manager at Clinton Power Station at one time (80's) had only an associates degree and a VP at Fernald (90's) also had only an associates. When staffing the term professional does have the meaning of a person in a responsible position and who is normally degreed or possesses a certification. But then all of us are expected to perform our jobs in a professional manner no matter what our position. Union employees are not hired under the heading of "Professional" is a true statment in the HR world (or IR) they are considered skilled labor.

Returning to a neutral corner yet again.

[alphadude]

exactly one is a behavior (in a professional manner) the other is a classification for employment...

SEE Wild Hogs Mar 2.  It was very very good to me! (highest paid pool boy in New Mexico)

[jjordan]

Ok lets see "How will implamenting a union hault/or slow down this addtion to the work forse"  It seems to me that they can sign union cards too .... and its sounds like their no different from the DOE techs that come over to power house work .... escept their quals are accepted where DOE Core Cards are "meaningless" ..... 

Tina,
It can't controll anything until it exhists. when you get a contract, a lot of theese issues are points of bargining. pay grades, qualifications, training, and apprenticship programs can be implemented, if you choose. right now, anyone that the NLRB would deem eligible to be included in the bargining unit can sign a card. And as long as the door is open, the numbers will grow, perhaps a little to rapidly. Have to wait and see. As we grow older our perception of time changes radically, it'll be over before we know it!
JJ

[jjordan]

the union is not really the way of the future-its an option for power plant workers.  If you treat HP tech as a craft-then union should be the option, if you treat it as a professional status- then education is the option, for it is a well known fact that education and professional employment go hand in hand. So, as you can see the camp is well divided-those with "field experience" tend to look at this as a craft, while those that get trained, educated, "signed off" go the professional route.

In some places technical staff are "quasi-professionals" in others its a craft.. so which side do you go with? craft or professional- 

I understand this dilema. What's in a name or a lable? A lot of the issues here come from our age of political correctness. We aren't allowed to call them "Garbage Men" anymore. They are "Sanatation Engineers" Well what about "Rad Engineers"? Thats garbage too! Most are not true engineers, it's just a lable some self promoting individuals decided to adopt. Engineers are degreed individuals, that have the option of joining a proffesional organization, or being represented by a union. There are both in this worl, because it's their choice! Wait, I thought engineers ran the train? Just another name!
JJ

[jjordan]

JJ
You hit on a VERY sore subject when you mentioned the powers that be would get rid of the older (higher priced techs) once the influx of new techs are up to speed (around 10 years).
However the problem is that most at most sites (yours included) there is no pay differential, 3.1 with 3 years is the same as 3.1 with 25 years.
The system has evolved to us serving as just warm bodies with little regard or recognition for what you know or do.

All you old guys are always sore! Try some Ben Gay! You are correct about my site not having much of a pay structure, but not all are like this. I've been to a few that have entry level, > 1yr Jr, 18.1, 3yr 3.1, 5 yr.3.1, 7 yr 3.1, with a NRRPT bonus. It's not going to take 10 years, 3-5, and according to RadGhost, the clock has already started ticking, and I agree, things are already in the works How much thought do you think my site puts in to the selection process? If I had any input, you'ld have been here for 2 or 3 weeks already. You kept comming back, worked hard, didn't make waves, did as you were told. What did it get you? We don't even get you shirts anymore! Sorry, I wish you were here!
JJ

[jjordan]

Ok I'm going to stick my nose in here again. Both sides of the "professional" debate have merit. Keep in mind that a professional my have no education over a High School diploma but hold a position of responsibility and a heavily degreed person with no position is not normally considered a professional. The Plant Manager at Clinton Power Station at one time (80's) had only an associates degree and a VP at Fernald (90's) also had only an associates. When staffing the term professional does have the meaning of a person in a responsible position and who is normally degreed or possesses a certification. But then all of us are expected to perform our jobs in a professional manner no matter what our position. Union employees are not hired under the heading of "Professional" is a true statment in the HR world (or IR) they are considered skilled labor.

Returning to a neutral corner yet again.

Marlin,
Just cause you're a moderator doesn't mean you can't have an opinion! You're doing a good job!
Jj

[RAD-GHOST]

Actually JJ, the information I shared was feed back from a couple of Human Resource types.   

I'm trying to stay on topic:

Clarification on some Myths of the DOE technician world:

First of all, there are quite a number of DOE technicians with a background in the commercial industry.  A lot of the old timers chose the DOE world for a stable environment, (family, economic and sleeping in their own bed each night).  Working a 4/10, or 5/8 schedule, paid government holidays, paid sick/personal time, paid vacation time and cash back in your pocket for unused benefits, is very appealing.  Combine that with a packaged salary of $50K to $65K a year, (without overtime), and your looking at the real picture.   

Another hilarious misconception of the DOE world; is the number of technicians supposedly eliminated from commercial opportunities due to 10 CFR 26 standards.  It's not a matter of they couldn't work the commercial facilities; it's just that they didn't want to!  I think the number of DOE techs entering the commercial market will eliminate this myth completely! 

How do they fit into the industry as far as training and qualifications; below the majority of house technicians and above the majority of the commercial technicians.  Some may take that as an insult, but the DOE world requires an INITIAL academic and performance qualification, followed by some form of a continuous proficiency program.  If a similar program exists for the commercial technician, (other than NEU test), in the last decade and excluding house technicians, I'm not aware of it!  It's extremely easy to convert 10 CFR 835 to 10 CFR 20, but there seems to be somewhat of a challenge doing the opposite!  Obviously this season will have some speed bumps, due to the hands on experience level associated with the commercial industry, but that situation will rectify itself in a matter of days! 

Like many have posted on this thread, they have a family to feed, bills to pay and make whatever independent opportunities they can.  This situation may cause problems for some of the existing commercial technicians, who had their previously established circuit, (more techs, less opportunities).  Then again it opens a window of resources to the commercial industry for trained manpower; that meet, or exceed the ANSI standards straight out of the gate!  I figure it will take a couple of seasons to weed out the "who's, who"!   

Another interesting aspect to the increased work force volume, is the over abundance of technicians.  You heard right, more technicians then jobs!   I know for a fact JJ, that you have individuals showing up at your facility that are trained and qualified ANSI 3.1 technicians and they are performing services in other disciplines!  I'll bet nobody ever thought of this business plan, backup technicians already on site, badge and can change hardhats and pay grades in a moments notice!  Especially if someone fails a test, or is disliked by management!  Don't be surprised when you find out their background and level of knowledge!

One of my main focuses, of any organization, was TRAINING!  Diversified and complete in the entire science of Health Physics.  Some thought that to be a worthless cause, don't need it because I'm make a decent living right now!  Looks like this season may start testing that theory, technicians trained and qualified in the DOE and Commercial world, vs. Commercial only!

Scary, don't you think!

RG

[alphadude]

actually Rad Engineering comes out of DOE work and tends to be CHP or equivalent experience and legally you can only sell your services as an engineer if you are registered.  The title you are talking about is a job postion and anybody that meets the job description for that title may fill it regardless of education. Companies are allowed to do that.  So don't split hairs..
like you said an engineer is somebody that runs a train... (apples and oranges)

So JJ you are not getting OLD?? wow this is a first an imortal UBER TECH, not aging... well dude if you are past 40 you are in the bucket.. and if you are under 32 -they dont trust you..and dont have a lot of experience.  The 32 to 42 age bracket is what utilities love- somewhat stable, no emotional crisis on a daily basis, experienced etc. 

[Mike_Koehler]

Actually JJ, the information I shared was feed back from a couple of Human Resource types.   

I'm trying to stay on topic:

Clarification on some Myths of the DOE technician world:

First of all, there are quite a number of DOE technicians with a background in the commercial industry.  A lot of the old timers chose the DOE world for a stable environment, (family, economic and sleeping in their own bed each night).  Working a 4/10, or 5/8 schedule, paid government holidays, paid sick/personal time, paid vacation time and cash back in your pocket for unused benefits, is very appealing.  Combine that with a packaged salary of $50K to $65K a year, (without overtime), and your looking at the real picture.   

Another hilarious misconception of the DOE world; is the number of technicians supposedly eliminated from commercial opportunities due to 10 CFR 26 standards.  It's not a matter of they couldn't work the commercial facilities; it's just that they didn't want to!  I think the number of DOE techs entering the commercial market will eliminate this myth completely! 

Very True RG....... I currently work at a "national lab" and it is not a stretch to include most of us in the group of former commercial (both house and road) techs lured over to the dark side for many varying reasons. The FFD element does not apply here as we have a random program here and are almost all cleared with some variation of a DOE or DOD clearance (depending on which places we work). There is a significant concern in the national lab complex that sees a reduction in budget as a potential for less techs...... Therefore many of us "keep our ears to the ground" so to speak....

Very well put.

Mike

[jjordan]

alphadude,
i'm aging very rapidly! Right now  I'm experiencing a union afilliated correction factor, I think it's somewhere around 2.5 to 1! I'm over 50, But don't look a day over 60! Guess what, they still don't trust me! but I've got their full attention right now. They are laying awake at nights after reading this (yes they read this), trying to figure out a way to either shut me up, or make me go away. I feel There is a very big need for some structure and security here, and I think the IBEW is the best alternative available.
JJ

[alphadude]

yikes an old union dude- dangerous stuff- next he will be saying how he used to wash his face in PCB,brush his teeth with asbestos from the cable spreading room and paint his nipples with radium... give em hell JJ

fortunately you have union protection- me being in the mangement arena felt the age discrimination begin around 48 or so.. and it gets more every day, industry wants younger workers-why? they work for less money, they will swallow, they cant say "the last time this was tried it didnt work then" , they dont know about the directors preg girl friend, who latter became his second wife, and they tend to follow the alpha dog ... but we all know that story

[Dave Warren]

Let's not kid ourselves here, with all this debating.
Most outage workers are seasonal workers, who want alot of time off in the summer.
Most DOE workers are happy right where they are.

Is the IBEW ready to back a HP that works 4 or 5 months out of the year?
Is the IBEW ready to accept that HP telling them "No, I don't want to work Indian Point from June-August"?
Is the IBEW ready to accept that HP telling them that they don't get along with the RPM at Waterford?
Is the IBEW ready to accept that HP telling them that they are happy with doing routines 52 weeks a year at a lab, and doesn't want to travel anywhere?

Aren't there too many unknowns in the entire transformation to a union? Just wondering....

[Already Gone]

Let's not kid ourselves here, with all this debating.
Most outage workers are seasonal workers, who want alot of time off in the summer.
Most DOE workers are happy right where they are.

Is the IBEW ready to back a HP that works 4 or 5 months out of the year?
Is the IBEW ready to accept that HP telling them "No, I don't want to work Indian Point from June-August"?
Is the IBEW ready to accept that HP telling them that they don't get along with the RPM at Waterford?
Is the IBEW ready to accept that HP telling them that they are happy with doing routines 52 weeks a year at a lab, and doesn't want to travel anywhere?

Aren't there too many unknowns in the entire transformation to a union? Just wondering....

The cure for the unknown is knowing.  Knowing comes from learning.  Learning comes from the asking of questions and listening to the answers.  Since you asked the questions, here are some answers.

1. If work is more available only 4 or 5 months a year, they're perfectly happy to leave you alone until they need you.
2. They will never force you to work at a particular plant.  When your name comes up to the top of the list, they call you.  If you turn it down, you go to the bottom of the list.  However, many unions have agreements with employers which allow them to "call by name".  That means that you can get hired as a returnee to your favorite plant even though you just went to the bottom of the list for refusing IP.  If the job was in June-August, there are a LOT of names on that list.  Chances are that they will get the number of people they need.
3. If you don't want to go to Waterford, refer to answer 2, above.
4. If you are working, your name will not come up for another job.  As long as you keep doing those routines, drawing a paycheck, and paying your assessments to the union, they are QUITE happy with you.  Since you are happy, working, and paying, there is no need for the business agent to do anything more for you - such as getting you work.  They are too busy getting work for the other members to waste time finding a job for somebody who already has one.

The IBEW isn't Bartlett, and doesn't share Bartlett's problems.  Bartlett has a duty to the customers who pay them to supply techs.  They are most successful when their contracts are staffed with people who are qualified and keep the customer happy.  The IBEW has a duty to get work for their members.  They are most successful when all their members work as much as they want to.  Sometimes, these duties mesh very well together, and sometimes they are totally unrelated.

[thenukeman]

Who uses your union dues for their own gain or to support people for office you may not want.  I will never be union. My grandfather was union, alwaysvoted like union said and still lived in a crap house and died of black lung, Thank you very much union.  I will take my chances on my own by working hard and working well with others. I do not need a union to tell me what to do andwho to vote for and waste mymoney on Mafia people. In Oak ridge TN the union is used to keep losers employed while the hard working newer workers get laid off. The companies finally got smart and laid off everybody and rehired other people at diffrent titles to get the job done!!!

[jjordan]

BeerCourt,
Most excellent post! Couldn't have said it any better myself. Dave, remember if we pull this IBEW organization off, and you choose to participate. You are the IBEW. You make the rules that apply to your bargining unit. I think what will be the goal is for all traveling contract technicians, and deconners. The DOE sites are already represented in part, and if not, they would try to keep them separate, because they have different issues and needs. They would be appropriate units all individually. Travelers have similar wants and needs. The whole concept is untried, so yes there are a lot of unknowns. Sign a card, vote yes, and draft a proposal of knowns, then ratify a contract.
thenukeman, sorry about your grandfather, but the whole reason unions came about was to try and stop things like that from happening. I think that maybe the company he was working for would be more of the responsible party. Unions can't get you on easy street, they will try to negotiate a better wage, but can only get what the market will bear. The union doesn't tell you what to do. You agree to do what the contact you vote on stipulates. Now mind you , you won't get it all your way, because we all vote on it, and whatever the majority wants, is what becomes the contract. Who are the Mafia guys you know? I haven't met any yet. None of the people I've been in contact with are even Italian.Turn off the Sapranos, and go do something educational. Go to the NLRB site and read a little about your rights as a worker. Try looking at the IBEW's site as well, it's got an english version if you're still on the Mafia thing. (just kidding) Knowledge is power and strength, Oh and I learned a long time ago, to never say never!
JJ

[SloGlo]

Who uses your union dues for their own gain or to support people for office you may not want. 

iffen yer ina union, you do.  iffen ya wanna.  iffen ya dont, ya don't.  this ain't the country where people are telling ya how to vote 'n standing there watching you any more.  iffen ya don't like how yer dues monies are being sent into the political pipe line, vote out the office holder who are doing it.  just like voting out the people you don't like in political office.  this is kansas, not oz.  unions are in a state of affairs now to do the membership bidding.  why?  because, iffen they don't, they won't have any membership.  for every strike you read about any more, there are 10 stories about unions taking down management groups for not living up to legal issues and contract issues.  now, if ya wanna kill the unions, that's fine too.  just remember what your grandpa would say.

[jocro]

It would be good to remember that what's good for the group is what gets done in a union, and if ya don't like what most of the group wants, ya might be less than happy.  Also, where a union is part of a larger union or conglomerate, (read "International" here) it not uncommon for the international office to ignore or downplay the needs of a particular local or group of locals under the intenational umbrella.  Haven't seen this sort of thing with the IBEW but it was common with the Steelworkers and OCAW.

[RAD-GHOST]

Mafia People, Way to Funny!   

YO....Fugedaboudit,

RG!