Rent a tech Union debate

[Camella Black]

It's my forum, i started this thread, and gee , It's been a little bit popular. if you don't see, why do you continue to post? Is it really " I don't agree with you, you should view things my way because I'm right and you're wrong" Well this is an open forum, and you're still welcome to post, even if you don't agree.  some clarification seems to be necessary once again. The "Union" being proposed would be for the traveling contract technicians, and decon techs at commercial nuclear power plants. Not DOE, or D & D, or any kinky little cleanup or such. Just commercial! Got it? i see lots of postings about all of this money being made, supposedly being paid, I'm throwing the BS flag! As I've just said if someone in commercial was paying $45.00 an hour. My site would be a ghost town! i hope all of the readers can see through all of the smoke. there are a lot of readers, and i wish they would alll take abot 5 minutes, register and tellus your feelings on the issue. I will be talking to CJ and others from the IBEW the 26th through the 28th, and will see if they think there is enough interest to pursue a campaign. This will be rather costly to the IBEW, (that's where some of your dues money goes! To help others organize. You selfish little s**ts!) OOps did I say that? Yes I did, lots of you only think of yourselves, and that's wrong. together we can make it better for all The slugs and the heavy hitters. It's not the unions job to sort out the non productive, that's managements job. If they don't want to do it, get used to working with people who do les than you. I've accepeted that fact long ago. they blame the union for this too, thats where you get it from, you beleive them. They are lazier than the slugs you speak of, thats why they went into management in the first place. They don't like to work and get dirty! The unions job is to protect the workers rights! All workers rights. Get your facts straight. I've worked with non productive workers too, non union, so that makes me think we need a union, because being non union breeds laziness. It's all over the south! Come on get real!
JJ

JJ can you tell me how if we rent a techs join the union it is going to help us? We depend upon Bartlett and the other companies to submit our names for outages. What impact do you think it would have on us working? What will prevent them from hiring non union techs?

We already have to put up with the b.s. of being turned away because we aren't returnees to a plant, whats going to keep them our a non union utility from turning away a union tech?

[thenukeman]

Camella, Thats exactly what I am saying. Lets say that even if 50 percent of the techs sign a card and the others are non union. Then I would believe that the non union techs would get first picks.  The other union techs who could not hold out or were borderline supporters of a union,  but more supporters of their family or life style would bail leaving the left over union techs in the cold.  I know the pro union will try to fluff this up, but most companies do not want to deal with a union, they will not tell you that but it is the truth. therefore the nonunion techs win. I say if you want to form a union go for it. I will then get to cherry pick my jobs if I want as nonunion, and laugh while I said I told you so to the others out in the cold.  Hate to be cold blooded but I am keeping it real and hope that I can help the rent a techs from falling into a Union trap and make a good decision.

[SloGlo]

Camella, Thats exactly what I am saying. Lets say that even if 50 percent of the techs sign a card and the others are non union. Then I would believe that the non union techs would get first picks.  The other union techs who could not hold out or were borderline supporters of a union,  but more supporters of their family or life style would bail leaving the left over union techs in the cold. 


I know the pro union will try to fluff this up, but most companies do not want to deal with a union, they will not tell you that but it is the truth.

first point.... iffen half join a union 'n alla udder techs take da jobs da union techs woodent git a job.  ok, let's go back to sum udder knowledge of the biz.  prime consideration, there ain't enuff techs.  so da non-union techs suk up alla first jobs.  den the union techs get their demands met for higher wages.  this has been posted before and is known as waiting for an offer you want.  it is also a prime method of getting more cash for da road techs.  so, what you are alluding to is dat doz nasty union techs will consistently get bigger bux because they don't take the first package offered.  hmmmmmm.....sounds like a winner to me, and a praktise i use. 

second point.  bartlett uses union techs.  i have worked for them in this capacity last millenium.  since they are the 800 pound gorilla in da biz 'n they don't care, who are yew talking about?  a rinky dink company?  most of your major suppliers of skilled labor (not hp techs, ok?) ina nuke biz do it with union craft labor.  of coors, not all but yer heavy hitters are.  'n da ones who come in when things are totally crunched (think underwater workers) are even more heavily weighted toward union shops.  nuff said.

[jjordan]

JJ can you tell me how if we rent a techs join the union it is going to help us? We depend upon Bartlett and the other companies to submit our names for outages. What impact do you think it would have on us working? What will prevent them from hiring non union techs?

We already have to put up with the b.s. of being turned away because we aren't returnees to a plant, whats going to keep them our a non union utility from turning away a union tech?

Camella, I don't have all of the answers, but I'll tell you a few things I do know. You depend on Bartlett, corect? Which Bartlett? Bartlett Services or Bartlett Nuclear? They are fairly interchangeable, but one is union, and one is not. Now here at Brunswick, we don't have to hire through Bartlett. We can hire direct through Comensra (SP?) Most but not all of our retirees work through them. Lets do a little math here. Lets say the techs do choose to bargin collectively. This requires a vote of the population, with > 50% in favor of a union. OK so we get the right to bargin collectively, and we have eased the fear of reprocussions from the companies. As we try to put together a contract proposal, a few more people will get involved. Lots are fearfull of loosing their jobs, remove the threat, and a lot will participate. You still don't have to, but why wouldn't you? If you don't join you have no say. You still have the benefit, but you get it my way. This aint Burger King. Even in a right to work state CR3 has well over a 90% membership. Yeah you have a few "Cherry Pickers" like nukeman. (I'll address that later), but a good percentage will opt for the union when it becomes available.You depend on Bartlett to submitt your resume? Have you ever wondered why you didn't get accepted at a site you wanted to go to. Lots of times the utility never sees all of the resumes they would like to see. We sometimes have to ask for particular resumes, that never arrived. Ah the returnee curse! It impacted me earlier in my career. The union can neither kill nor cure this. I said that I feel the utility should be able to choose who they offer employment to first, and only go to the hirring hall to fill the slots they can't themselves. I understand, wanting returnees. They know your system a little bit, and the utility knows there preformance. Why take a chance on an unknown. Later in life, when I got good at remote monitoring, I got requested by utilities that I had never been to, because they heard about me through the grapevine. (very small industry) If you're good ,word gets out, and some utilities actually develope refferences, and check things out. Now as to the term "Cherry Picker" Back when Ii was a youth playing basketball(Peach Baskets) This was a derogatory name for someone who didn't play much deffense. They usually hung out around mid court and deppended on their teamates to get the ball back, and pass it to them for an easy layup. This sometimes worked if you had a strong team, but a lot of times it didn't because it was 5 on 4 when you might need the 5th man. The "Cherry Picker" might run up some impressive stats at the expense of his teamates. This is exactly the reason the 1500 attempt failed. You had "Cherry Pickers" cross your lines. If you would have all stuck together until EVERYONE settled, you would have succeeded. With or without the IBEW. I still don't understand who authorized a walkout, I don't even beleive there was a NLRB hearing. But do the math again. Say you had 150  techs at a site, and they all walked. The 30 or so house techs managed to keep things going, but prooduction fell to 50% for about 2 weeks. Relacement power I've heard in round figures is about a million / day. @ weeks at 50%, your out 7 million. Divide that by 150. You think there might be a little pressure to give the 150 the real pittance they were asking for? Do you think the other utilities would ask for everyone to settle if they all were being impacted? You bet! oversimplification i realize, but you should get the picture. Oh by the way, if you strike you don't get paid, or collect UC. So for the IBEW to let you go across coutry and incurr double expense would be very foolish. Why not just everyone stay home and collect UC until you get what you need. The State can't force you to travel, only seek suitable employment. Not enough money = unsuitable. Problem is too many people like nukeman! This is why there are agreements you sign to abide by the constitution, too many cherry pickers! Look back at some of the other posts, most was already adressed somewhere, there is a lot though. Hope I've answered you adequately. Oh there are agreement for utilities to use union help when available, effectively locking out non union bids if there is an agreement. I'm sure the IBEW will have their members try to include this in further negotiations.
JJ

[jjordan]

Gee, I'm setting here this weekend waiting to start my Non-Union outage at a Non-Union plant and loving it!  Love the weather here in Southport,NC.  Oh, I'm sorry, that's your Non-Union plant isn't it........

That's correct, and I'm working at fixing that too. Not just laying there waiting for someone to do it for me! Oh get up and look out the window. It's raining! The weather aint so good! Oh BTW go to the Comfort Inn for the next 3 nights and meet with some of the IBEW reps out of DC that will be helping you get some rights.  I'll be there too. I'll bet you didn't even click on the link I provided, just fired back on me. Too bad, might learn a little. I do everytime I read something. Some good, some bad. But I educate myself. Why don't you work Brunswick if you live in Southport?
JJ

[cjking5406]

That's correct, and I'm working at fixing that too. Not just laying there waiting for someone to do it for me! Oh get up and look out the window. It's raining! The weather aint so good! Oh BTW go to the Comfort Inn for the next 3 nights and meet with some of the IBEW reps out of DC that will be helping you get some rights.  I'll be there too. I'll bet you didn't even click on the link I provided, just fired back on me. Too bad, might learn a little. I do everytime I read something. Some good, some bad. But I educate myself. Why don't you work Brunswick if you live in Southport?
JJ

I'm here in Southport waiting to meet with anyone who's interested in finding out more about the IBEW.  As for the weather, I left a snowstorm in Nebraska so I can't complain!

As far as whether or not a Union company can get work or if it will be priced out of the market, I ask you to look around the plants that you have been to.  Are the in-house workers able to get contracts with good pay and beni's?  Are the maintenance contractors able to get the outage work at many of these plants?  Is it because contractors like Bechtel can hire Union for less?  Hell no, they can get the qualified workers.  That is the only concern of the utility and that concern will continue to be more difficult as the work force shrinks through retirement of older workers with little replacement coming out of the non-utility employers.  I've attended several conferences with utility management and consultants that rail about the aging workforce in this industry.  If you consider the impact of the aging workforce and the impact of new construction of nuclear plants (as soon as it gets here and I've been hearing the same rumors as everyone else for years) the qualified contract nuclear worker should have significant leverage.  The question is how to best use that leverage.  I personally believe that it is best utilized through collective bargaining.  I believe that if enough contract techs stand together, the contract companies (Bartlett) and the utilities that have the actual need will be willing to up the pay and beni's to maintain that qualified workforce.  I also believe that the IBEW's relationship with the Utilities (we represent workers in 2/3 of the existing commercial plants) will be helpful in getting the recognition of the Union contractors.  Look at what has happened to the Union wages in the Lineworkers in the recent past.  There is a critical shortage of Lineman and the increases that we are negotiating are way above market.  In many areas, we are seeing not only increases in wages, but contributions to retirement packages that are at record highs.  In the KC market, employers contribute 25% of wages into the Linemans retirement.  That is to say, the Lineman earns his wages AND gets a 25% payment into his retirement account.  This can be achieved because of the shortage and the collective bargaining process.  Utilities and contractors know that they can't call a temp labor company for qualified lineman.  The same is true in our field. 

I read another thread about the decon contract at Comed.  I don't know all the details, but I believe the concern is that IBEW Local 15 has an agreement with ComEd (Exelon now?) that all workers who come into the plant must be represented and the pay can't undercut that which IBEW has negotiated.  Eric Bartlett participated in the discussion and said that the job would be Union and that as of Jan 26th they were "tweaking the contract".  I'll bet that the pay for this job will be higher than most, and that Exelon will still be an extremely profitable company and Bartlett will likely show a profit on this job, too.  It shows the power of having a place at the table when it comes to negotiations.  Even if in this case, the representation is by proxy with Local 15 negotiting for workers it does not yet represent.

I welcome any questions or ideas on what changes you would like to see IF the IBEW were able to get an effective organizing campaign moving.  I haven't worked as a road tech since 89 and I have been outside the fence since 99.  However, I still believe that Contract RP Techs are more valuable than the typical compensation packages reflect and if it's the will of the workers to stand up and ask for more, I want to be part of that group.

CJ King

[RDTroja]

There are obviously many people that are thorughly committed to making a union happen and many that are (for a variety of reasons) very set on not being a part of it. There are a lot of good reasons for us to organize and some very valid points that have been made against the idea. There is also a great deal of repetition of viewpoints here (some have repeated their own viewpoints ad nauseum) and I have purposely avoided repeating myself, but here I go anyway.

I am currently in a position that would not be included in a union, but I fully expect to be back in a position someday that would be. I am having a very hard time weighing the pros and cons because they are mostly conjecture. Would our pay go up? Probably. How much? Nobody knows. Would we lose some flexibility? Probably. How much? Nobody knows. Would our benefits increase? Most probably. How much? Well, you all know the answer. And that is the only answer that ANYONE knows. I personally find it difficult to make a firm commitment to unknowns. And please don't tell me it is up to us. If it was, we would all be making $100 an hour and all the perdiem we could eat. It would be up to people that most of don't know making NEGOTIATED (read: trade-off) agreements with utilities. Would we get something? Yes. Would it be enough to make the trade-off worthwhile? (Fill in answer here.)

The only way I am going to get fully behind any change is if I at least have a good idea what the other side of the change looks like. Please don't anyone try to tell me that they know what it will be like because you will only hurt your credibility. Is it worth the risk? Maybe, but nobody... there I go again. If you feel that things are so bad that they have to change and are willing to risk the cost, then by all means tell the people that you work for (and quoting one of my favorite philosophers) "That's all I can stands and I can't stands no more." I do not feel quite that way yet, but several people have told me in other topics that I get treated better (for whatever reason) than most rent-a-techs do (I am not sure that is true, but reading some of the posts here, it must be.)

BUT -- the biggest hurdle for me to get over is that this is the same organization that promised us (and I was there in the meetings and signed the card) that they would make this work, would not abandon us, would take care of the organization, and would do everything except part the Red Sea to make this dream come true. You can say 'This time will be different' but I want proof. And I am not foolish enough to believe that I can get that proof and therein lies the problem. Nothing that anyone has said here (and I have a lot of respect for some of the people that have made theire opinions known) can provide one ounce of assurance that we will not be discussing this again in another 5 or 10 years and saying this time it will be different. Call me a sceptic (I have been called much worse, many things that are true.)

Again, I am not anti-union and I am not saying no (I am one of the people voicing his opinion that has not voted in this poll) but neither am I saying yes. I think the IBEW has a lot of explaining to do and I have not heard any of it yet. Why did we get NO support last time? What happened to all the plans? Why is it different now? Can you offer any proof? Hopefully they are answering these questions in their meetings and have some solid reassurances, but until it happens, there is no way to prove it and until you can prove it, there is always going to be a decided lack of trust.

That's some catch that Catch-22. No?

[doctormoo]

ive been both union and a road tech
and if i had not been represented by the ibew id be flat out on the street without pay or insurance
i became disabled in july last year and with all the dues ive paid the last 20 years came into play
i had disability insurance that was one of my negotiated benefits
so im for all of the bussiness to be union
too bad we dont have a co-op of sorts that is we all are part of a company and we are the stockholders
sounds to me like some company would realize this potential and monopolize on this
ive been part of a family of union brothers and sisters for a long time and would not trade it for anything
we all have the same goal to what would benefit us and our families the best
bartlett ge excelon entergy etc........sure do care for us

so why cant we all just get along!!!!!!

God Bless all
and the ibew

doctor mooooooo!!!!!!!

[Shawnee Man]

In addition I did some more calculations comparing the 1990 work schedule to 2007 work schedule with adjustments for 3% raises. Note that I considered from previous calculation the positive and negative cash flows. See my calculations below:

(30wks)(72 hrs/wk) ($13.50/hr) = ($34,098)


(21wks)(72 hrs/wk) (x) = ($34,098) =>

X = $18.45

With the reduced outage time at 1990 pay standard, to make up for lost hours you would have to boost hourly wage to $18.45.

Now add in inflation for cost of living of 3% per year. Note this is a HP Tech 3.1 Senior. 5 year, 7 year, and NRRPT would be higher hourly rates.

Year   HP Tech Pay
1990   $13.50
1991   $13.91
1992   $14.33
1993   $14.76
1994   $15.20
1995   $15.66
1996   $16.13
1997   $16.61
1998   $17.11
1999   $17.62
2000   $18.15
2001   $18.69
2002   $19.25
2003   $19.83
2004   $20.42
2005   $21.03
2006   $21.66
2007   $22.31

 
For example:

(30wks)(72 hrs/wk) ($22.31/hr) = ($50,454): Commercial HP Tech Work Year 1990

(21wks)(72 hrs/wk) (x) = ($50,454): Commercial HP Tech Work Year 2007

X = $27.30/hr: for a HP Tech 3.1 Senior (Most plants pay an additional $5 per hour completion bonus of current $22.50 non-NRRPT Tech=> $27.50/hr. If adjusted to the reduction of outage time, then the hourly would be $27.30 + $5.00 completion bonus.)

With all bonus money included:

$22.30 for Junior HP
$27.30 for 18.1 Senior HP
$32.30 for 3.1 Senior HP
$33.30 for 5 Year Senior HP
$34.30 for 7 Year Senior HP
$35.30 for NRRPT HP
$37.30 for HP Supervisor
$40.30 for ALARA HP

Remember for those who think this is high; this is without any benefits of a permanent employee.

Comments

There sure is alot of interest in extra positions for many companies at the same plants! I bet an increase far above the $25 per hour range gets those positions filled pretty darn quick.

[jjordan]

I'm wondering who is having problems staffing? We are fully staffed, at BNP, but not a lot of returnees! Any big money being offered yet?
JJ

[craps7]

Hey JJ, do they all speak fluent english at brunswick?

[SloGlo]

Hey JJ, do they all speak fluent english at brunswick?

fergehdabout ainglish.... yinz got moor'n too peeple dat speek pittsburghese?

[jjordan]

craps 7 Everyone speaks English. Some a little better than others, but they do OK. SloGlo, yes we have at least 2 people here that speak pittsburgese. Mah nue sooporvizor wares a Stillers shurt evry dae!
JJ

[SloGlo]

SloGlo, yes we have at least 2 people here that speak pittsburgese. Mah nue sooporvizor wares a Stillers shurt evry dae!
JJ

wail, hail!  yinz tale hymn 'go stillers!' fer me, 'k?

[alphadude]

as a note of interest read the recent events under Bartlett..

FYI
An interesting article in the Feb nuke news sheds some light on the demand for techs. In the article it is stated that in the next 5 years a +57% loss of techs will occur and 1000 techs are needed to fill the void. Under the partnering aspects, 100 grads will come out of tech schools by 2008, then about 100 annually from then on out.

So again, if some actions are not taken, within about 6 years there will be another glut in the tech market and cost will drop (your pay).

[Shawnee Man]

We are doing our part to help this situation.

[UncaBuffalo]

An interesting article in the Feb nuke news sheds some light on the demand for techs. In the article it is stated that in the next 5 years a +57% loss of techs will occur and 1000 techs are needed to fill the void. Under the partnering aspects, 100 grads will come out of tech schools by 2008, then about 100 annually from then on out.

So again, if some actions are not taken, within about 6 years there will be another glut in the tech market and cost will drop (your pay).

I definitely agree with your comment...but are you saying that unionizing will solve the glut?

[alphadude]

I ain't sayin nuthin 

[Shawnee Man]

Training new techs. Ok you pulled it out of me.

[Camella Black]

as a note of interest read the recent events under Bartlett..

FYI
An interesting article in the Feb nuke news sheds some light on the demand for techs. In the article it is stated that in the next 5 years a +57% loss of techs will occur and 1000 techs are needed to fill the void. Under the partnering aspects, 100 grads will come out of tech schools by 2008, then about 100 annually from then on out.

So again, if some actions are not taken, within about 6 years there will be another glut in the tech market and cost will drop (your pay).

I attempted to research this article but its not available online. But I do have a question concerning the above information. If it is going to take 1000 techs to fill the void and only 100 per year will be coming out of school how can you say there will be a glut in 6 years? Seems to me that there would still be a shortage.

[SloGlo]

jjordan..... lookey hear at watt eye found looking fer udder stuff.....

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30616FA3E540C748EDDAA0894D8494D81

[Camella Black]

jjordan..... lookey hear at watt eye found looking fer udder stuff.....

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30616FA3E540C748EDDAA0894D8494D81

SloGlo, I actually paid 4.95 to read this blip from the times. Heck the local tv station WRDW Channel 12 out of Augusta GA did a better job of covering the strike. I actually shot the footage for their coverage as an amatuer photographer. I attempted to get the AP to pick up the story but was told that due to wire contraints they could not do it.

It's hard t believe that so much time has flown, 17 years???

[jjordan]

SloGlo, I actually paid 4.95 to read this blip from the times. Heck the local tv station WRDW Channel 12 out of Augusta GA did a better job of covering the strike. I actually shot the footage for their coverage as an amatuer photographer. I attempted to get the AP to pick up the story but was told that due to wire contraints they could not do it.

It's hard t believe that so much time has flown, 17 years???

Camella, was it an informative article? I was at Davis Besse when this happened.I don't remember that much, not much went on there. We didn't walk, because we were union then. was the article worth the money?
JJ

[jjordan]

I definitely agree with your comment...but are you saying that unionizing will solve the glut?

May not solve it entirely. But may be able to help control it better. I think there will be a glut sometime, but I don't follow the math here either.
JJ

[SloGlo]

SloGlo, I actually paid 4.95 to read this blip from the times. Heck the local tv station WRDW Channel 12 out of Augusta GA did a better job of covering the strike. I actually shot the footage for their coverage as an amatuer photographer. I attempted to get the AP to pick up the story but was told that due to wire contraints they could not do it.

maybe tv stations don't save news articles on line.  cood it be due to residuals?  ennyweigh, i wuz at besse during da strike, in wuz calling every national news tv network for info.  they all told me there wasn't any strike.  they had no local stations at any nuke plant vicinity that had reported anything on the strike.