Dangerous Waters ahead for exiting service members!!!!

[MacGyver]

Dangerous Waters ahead for exiting service members!!!!

Veterans Receive Letters From VA Prohibiting Ownership or Purchase of Firearms

Though a little time has passed since I heard about this being the case with just PTSD cases; IT appears now to be broader in scope and reach.

Please read and discuss among your shipmates.

[retired nuke]

Ok... this was a letter to a vet that was in the process of being declared incompetent. Not every vet gets this letter. Being declared incompetent is exactly when posession of firearms is not a good idea, and current law prohibits posession of firearms by people that have documented mental problems. The gun laws currently don't limit mental problems to PTSD - any incompetency - inability to care for oneself, know right from wrong, etc - appears to fit the bill of mental issue.

This letter actually does a pretty good job of describing what is happening, what the vet's rights and responsibilities are, and how to appeal it.

So... what mad conspiracy of Obama's is this??

[Marlin]

I tried to do a search to learn more, I did not find it on a Main Stream outlet yet but what I have found bothers me. I am sure this will be the subject of the talking heads soon.

This is what bothers me most about this.

The letter provides no specifics on the reasons for the proposed finding of incompetency; just that is based on a determination by someone in the VA. In every state in the United States no one can be declared incompetent to administer their own affairs without due process of law and that usually requires a judicial hearing with evidence being offered to prove to a judge that the person is indeed incompetent. This is a requirement of the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that states that no person shall "... be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law...".

[drayer54]

I think this happened for a reason....

It's not like they are giving these out to everyone.

Didn't we cry for more restrictions on the mentally ill anyways?

[HydroDave63]

I think this happened for a reason....

It's not like they are giving these out to everyone.

Didn't we cry for more restrictions on the mentally ill anyways?

Agreed...my only objection was what Marlin pointed out, no due process (apparently)

[Higgs]

I think this happened for a reason....

It's not like they are giving these out to everyone.

Didn't we cry for more restrictions on the mentally ill anyways?

Yes, but as soon as someone wants to do something about it, people cry.

Justin

[drayer54]

To be fair, do we know the reasons why this was done? This seems like a jump to conclusions.

[MacGyver]

My original findings was months and months ago when I heard of returning vets with PTSD being declined the opportunity to access firearms (i.e. legally).  I am sure you have read and / or noticed the articles.

My concern is that now the VA has a BROADER reach than PTSD.  WE ALL know how a quick acting organization the VA is,,, don't we?!?!?!  

My dealings with the VA in the past give me pause due to:
1)  The folks working at the VA
2)  The work load at the VA
3)  The lack of accountability at the VA
4)  The lack of recourse / redress to grievances / error's at the VA (or any government entity in totality)

Other concerns are that typically:
1)  Vets are more likely to own or participate in firearm activities (or just the desire to defend themselves in post military life)
2)  Is this how we treat our wounded warriors'?

It bothered me, before, when I read the articles of returning vets with PTSD.  I thought that they would label everyone with PTSD just to take this type of action against them.  I don't trust my government (though I LOVE My/Our Country).

Now, I can see this is far more expansive than I had originally imagined.  No government agency I am aware of can be labeled "virtuous".  Though that is the job of each citizen it is not the role of government no matter how much you want it to be.

Just be aware that now ALL vets that go through the VA can be subject to any tests or observations they want and make findings without your knowledge or input or grievance on your competence.

In summary:
We get a lot of SAD PANDA's here.  This would/could apply to them as well as the honorable service vet who just went down to the VA to get a check-up.

This is now a bad trend for returning vets.  The very organization that is meant to help you upon your return to civilian life is now the very organization that will take your GOD given (and Constitutional) Rights away from you with the Power and Full-Weight of the US Government.

Thank you for your service.  Watch your back at the VA!

[MacGyver]

To be fair, do we know the reasons why this was done? This seems like a jump to conclusions.

No.

But, it appears to be reported that "veterans" (plural) received the letter.

US veterans are receiving letters from the government informing them that they are disabled and not allowed to own, purchase or possess a firearm. If the veteran does decide to purchase a firearm he will by fined, imprisoned or both.

Page 1


Page 2


Page 3

Source Material:
These pages came from Red Flag.

Disturbing Report: Veterans are receiving letters from VA prohibiting the ownership or purchase of firearms... Developing...

February 20, 2013

Written By Constitutional Attorney Michael Connelly, J.D.

How would you feel if you received a letter from the U.S. Government informing you that because of a physical or mental condition that the government says you have it is proposing to rule that you are incompetent to handle your own financial affairs? Suppose that letter also stated that the government is going to appoint a stranger to handle your affairs for you at your expense? That would certainly be scary enough but it gets worse.

What if that letter also stated: "A determination of incompetency will prohibit you from purchasing, possessing, receiving, or transporting a firearm or ammunition. If you knowingly violate any of these prohibitions, you may be fined, imprisoned, or both pursuant to the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, Pub.L.No. 103-159, as implemented at 18, United States Code 924(a)(2)."?

That makes is sound like something right from a documentary on a tyrannical dictatorship somewhere in the world. Yet, as I write this I have a copy of such a letter right in front of me. It is being sent by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs to hundreds, perhaps thousands, of America's heroes. In my capacity as Executive Director of the United States Justice Foundation (USJF) I have been contacted by some of these veterans and the stories I am getting are appalling.

The letter provides no specifics on the reasons for the proposed finding of incompetency; just that is based on a determination by someone in the VA. In every state in the United States no one can be declared incompetent to administer their own affairs without due process of law and that usually requires a judicial hearing with evidence being offered to prove to a judge that the person is indeed incompetent. This is a requirement of the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that states that no person shall "... be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law...".

Obviously, the Department of Veterans Affairs can't be bothered by such impediments as the Constitution, particularly since they are clearly pushing to fulfill one of Obama's main goals, the disarming of the American people. Janet Napolitano has already warned law enforcement that some of the most dangerous among us are America's heroes, our veterans, and now according to this letter from the VA they can be prohibited from buying or even possessing a firearm because of a physical or mental disability.

Think about it, the men and women who have laid their lives on the line to defend us and our Constitution are now having their own Constitutional rights denied. There are no clear criteria for the VA to declare a veteran incompetent. It can be the loss of a limb in combat, a head injury, a diagnosis of PTSD, or even a soldier just telling someone at the VA that he or she is depressed over the loss of a buddy in combat. In none of these situations has the person been found to be a danger to themselves or others. If that was the case than all of the Americans who have suffered from PTSD following the loss of a loved one or from being in a car accident would also have to be disqualified from owning firearms. It would also mean that everyone who has ever been depressed for any reason should be disarmed. In fact, many of the veterans being deprived of their rights have no idea why it is happening.

The answer seems to be it is simply because they are veterans. At the USJF we intend to find the truth by filing a Freedom of Information Act request to the Department of Veterans Affairs to force them to disclose the criteria they are using to place veterans on the background check list that keeps them from exercising their Second Amendment rights. Then we will take whatever legal steps are necessary to protect our American warriors.

The reality is that Obama will not get all of the gun control measures he wants through Congress, and they wouldn't be enough for him anyway. He wants a totally disarmed America so there will be no resistance to his plans to rob us of our nation. That means we have to ask who will be next. If you are receiving a Social Security check will you get one of these letters? Will the government declare that you are incompetent because of your age and therefore banned from firearm ownership. It certainly fits in with the philosophy and plans of the Obama administration. It is also certain that our military veterans don't deserve this and neither do any other Americans.

-- Michael Connelly, J.D.

Executive Director, United States Justice Foundation​

[Chimera]

Didn't we cry for more restrictions on the mentally ill anyways?

And that scared the crap of me even more than the gun-grabbers in the various local, state and federal governments.  Who makes the decision that someone is mentally ill?  Is it the same doctor who asks you how many guns you own during your routine physical?  Given the power of the federal purse in the medical industry, they could probably coerce any doctor into giving that sort of diagnosis . . . not enough to institutionalize but just enough to keep you unarmed and defenseless.

[GLW]

Don't go to the VA, don't complain while you're in, keep your mouth shut and your rights inviolate, don't go to Santa Claus expecting help without payback, even when you earned it,...

It can become your own little version of skin in the game,....

We thank you for your service,....

But we can't help you against the liberty vampires if you invite them inside your door,...

[MacGyver]

More reading,,,

From the RED FLAG

WND Investigating: Obama threatening veterans' gun rights... Feds send letters to warn those deemed 'incompetent' on firearms...

February 22, 2013

WND -- The Obama administration has launched into a campaign that threatens the Second Amendment rights of American military veterans, sending out letters that say their competency to handle their own affairs is being reviewed, and if determined by government bureaucrats to be unable to handle their affairs, they would be barred from having any weapons.

The issue is being raised by officials with the United States Justice Foundation, which takes up cases involving civil and religious rights.
In a statement posted on the organization's website,

"Then we will take whatever legal steps are necessary to protect our American warriors," he wrote.

He said he's been approached by a significant number of veterans who have gotten the letters.

An image of a letter dated Dec. 20, 2012, has been posted online at Red Flag News.

The addressee and the name have been blacked out, but it obliquely states that the Department of Veterans Affairs has "received" information about the veteran that "because of your disabilities you may need help in handling your Department of Affairs (VA) benefits."

However, it provides no details other that the information was "a report from Portland VA Medical Center."

"The evidence indicates that you are not able to handle your VA benefit payments because of a physical or mental condition," the letter warns. "We propose to rate you incompetent for VA purposes. This means we must decide if you are able to handle your VA benefit payments. We will base our decision on all the evidence we already have including any other evidence you sent to us."

Completion of the incompetency determination means that a "fiduciary" would be appointed to manage the veteran's payments.

The VA also warns, "A determination of incompetency will prohibit you from purchasing, possessing, receiving, or transporting a firearm or ammunition. If you knowingly violate any of these prohibitions, you may be fined, imprisoned, or both..."

The letter then offers the veteran an opportunity to "request a personal hearing within 30 days from the date at the top of this letter to present evidence or argument on any important point in your claim."

But it says the VA will not pay some of the expenses of the hearing.

"If we don't hear from you within the next 60 days, we will assume you have no additional evidence and do not want a hearing. After those 60 days we will make our decision using the evidence we already have and tell you our decision."

The letter is signed by K. Kalama, Veterans Service Center manager in the Oregon Department of Veterans Affairs.

The letter, Connelly wrote, sounds "like something right from a documentary on a tyrannical dictatorship somewhere in the world. Yet, as I write this I have a copy of such a letter right in front of me. It is being sent by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs to hundreds, perhaps thousands, of America's heroes."

"The letter provides no specifics on the reasons for the proposed finding of incompetency; just that is based on a determination by someone in the VA. In every state in the United States no one can be declared incompetent to administer their own affairs without due process of law and that usually requires a judicial hearing with evidence being offered to prove to a judge that the person is indeed incompetent. This is a requirement of the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that states that no person shall '... be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law...'

"Obviously, the Department of Veterans Affairs can't be bothered by such impediments as the Constitution, particularly since they are clearly pushing to fulfill one of Obama's main goals, the disarming of the American people. Janet Napolitano has already warned law enforcement that some of the most dangerous among us are America's heroes, our veterans, and now according to this letter from the VA they can be prohibited from buying or even possessing a firearm because of a physical or mental disability," Connelly wrote.

Officials with the Department of Veterans Affairs did not respond to a WND request for comment.
Executive Director Michael Connelly said his organization is pursuing a Freedom of Information Act demand to the Department of Veterans Affairs to "force them to disclose the criteria they are using to place veterans on the background check list that keeps them from exercising their Second Amendment rights."

"There are no clear criteria for the VA to declare a veteran incompetent. It can be the loss of a limb in combat, a head injury, a diagnosis of PTSD, or even a soldier just telling someone at the VA that he or she is depressed over the loss of a buddy in combat. In none of these situations has the person been found to be a danger to themselves or others. If that was the case than all of the Americans who have suffered from PTSD following the loss of a loved one or from being in a car accident would also have to be disqualified from owning firearms. It would also mean that everyone who has ever been depressed for any reason should be disarmed. In fact, many of the veterans being deprived of their rights have no idea why it is happening," Connelly said.

He said the issue raises another huge question.

"We have to ask who will be next. If you are receiving a Social Security check will you get one of these letters? Will the government declare that you are incompetent because of your age and therefore banned from firearm ownership. It certainly fits in with the philosophy and plans of the Obama administration," he wrote.

WND previously has reported on the issue of PTSD and veterans. It was after the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals excoriated the Department of Veterans Affairs for its "unchecked incompetence" in dealing with a flood of PTSD, depression and similar conditions, taking an average of four years to provide veterans their mental health benefits, and often taking weeks to get a suicidal vet his first appointment.

Read more at WND....

From the WND,,,

Obama threatening veterans' gun rights
Feds send letters to warn those deemed 'incompetent' on firearms


In an apparent threat to Second Amendment rights, some American military veterans have received a letter from the Veterans Administration warning that their competency to handle their own affairs is under review, and if determined by government bureaucrats to be "incompetent," they would be barred from possessing weapons.

The issue is being raised by the United States Justice Foundation, which defends civil and religious rights.

In a statement on the organization's website, Executive Director Michael Connelly said his organization is pursuing a Freedom of Information Act demand to the Department of Veterans Affairs to "force them to disclose the criteria they are using to place veterans on the background check list that keeps them from exercising their Second Amendment rights."

"Then we will take whatever legal steps are necessary to protect our American warriors," he wrote.

He said he's been approached by a significant number of veterans who have received letters from the VA.

An image of a letter dated Dec. 20, 2012, has been posted online at Red Flag News.

The letter states that the Department of Veterans Affairs has "received" information about the veteran that "because of your disabilities you may need help in handling your Department of Affairs (VA) benefits."

However, it provides no details other that the information was "a report from Portland VA Medical Center."

"The evidence indicates that you are not able to handle your VA benefit payments because of a physical or mental condition," the letter warns. "We propose to rate you incompetent for VA purposes. This means we must decide if you are able to handle your VA benefit payments. We will base our decision on all the evidence we already have including any other evidence you sent to us."

Completion of the incompetency determination means that a "fiduciary" would be appointed to manage the veteran's payments.

The VA also warns: "A determination of incompetency will prohibit you from purchasing, possessing, receiving, or transporting a firearm or ammunition. If you knowingly violate any of these prohibitions, you may be fined, imprisoned, or both."

The letter then offers the veteran an opportunity to "request a personal hearing within 30 days from the date at the top of this letter to present evidence or argument on any important point in your claim."

But it says the VA will not pay some of the expenses of the hearing.

"If we don't hear from you within the next 60 days, we will assume you have no additional evidence and do not want a hearing. After those 60 days we will make our decision using the evidence we already have and tell you our decision."

The letter is signed by K. Kalama, Veterans Service Center manager in the Oregon Department of Veterans Affairs.

The letter, Connelly wrote, sounds "like something right from a documentary on a tyrannical dictatorship somewhere in the world."

"Yet, as I write this I have a copy of such a letter right in front of me," he said. 'It is being sent by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs to hundreds, perhaps thousands, of America's heroes."

Connelly noted the letter "provides no specifics on the reasons for the proposed finding of incompetency; just that is based on a determination by someone in the VA."

"In every state in the United States no one can be declared incompetent to administer their own affairs without due process of law and that usually requires a judicial hearing with evidence being offered to prove to a judge that the person is indeed incompetent," he explained.

"This is a requirement of the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that states that no person shall 'be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law.'

"Obviously, the Department of Veterans Affairs can't be bothered by such impediments as the Constitution, particularly since they are clearly pushing to fulfill one of Obama's main goals, the disarming of the American people. Janet Napolitano has already warned law enforcement that some of the most dangerous among us are America's heroes, our veterans, and now according to this letter from the VA they can be prohibited from buying or even possessing a firearm because of a physical or mental disability," Connelly wrote.

Officials with the Department of Veterans Affairs did not respond to a WND request for comment.

Connelly argued there "are no clear criteria for the VA to declare a veteran incompetent."

"It can be the loss of a limb in combat, a head injury, a diagnosis of PTSD, or even a soldier just telling someone at the VA that he or she is depressed over the loss of a buddy in combat. In none of these situations has the person been found to be a danger to themselves or others. If that was the case than all of the Americans who have suffered from PTSD following the loss of a loved one or from being in a car accident would also have to be disqualified from owning firearms. It would also mean that everyone who has ever been depressed for any reason should be disarmed. In fact, many of the veterans being deprived of their rights have no idea why it is happening," Connelly said.

He said the issue raises another huge question.

"We have to ask who will be next. If you are receiving a Social Security check will you get one of these letters? Will the government declare that you are incompetent because of your age and therefore banned from firearm ownership. It certainly fits in with the philosophy and plans of the Obama administration," he wrote.

WND previously reported on the issue of PTSD and veterans. It was after the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals excoriated the Department of Veterans Affairs for its "unchecked incompetence" in dealing with a flood of PTSD, depression and similar conditions, taking an average of four years to provide veterans their mental health benefits, and often taking weeks to get a suicidal vet his first appointment.
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/02/obama-threatening-veterans-gun-rights/#iOKE8KFJlDprD2wL.99


By  Bob Unruh

[rlbinc]

1) The VA can deem one "incompetent" enough to not own a handgun, but threatens to prosecute Brady Bill violation AS IF the accused is "competent".


(translation: we'll pay you to drool and defecate your pants - but only if disarmed, our jackboots must enter your domicile unopposed)


2) The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms Shall Not Be Infringed.


(translation: if VA deems one incompetent, you're not "People" anymore. Back in my day, a VA hospital couldn't tell a wart from skin cancer, how reliable are their government grade psychiatrists...)

[Chimera]

As reliable as the government needs them to be.

[HydroDave63]

The gooberment plan of the future present...