Stay in or Get out

[nukewifeymomof2]

So my Hubby has 1.5 years left in the navy. He is an E-6 ELT on a sub. He will be getting out after 12 years. I was wondering what yalll thought about staying in and trying to do LDO or staying in and seaman to officer or just say hell with it and get out cause the quality of life would be better. What is holding me back from saying forget this navy life is the retirement at the age of 38. Well someone please give me some opinions before he signs on the dotted line again.

[Gamecock]

From someone who will be retirement eligible next year at age 37.....

STAY

Tell your husband to apply for every officer program there is...Seaman to Admiral, LDO, etc.  Just know that you have to serve ten years as an officer before you can retire....even if that means you are over 20.

However, the navy needs good CPO's also, so I would recommend staying even if he does not get an officer program

In my opinion, 12 years is too much time to throw away a guaranteed income and health care for life.

Just my opinion.

GC

[co60slr]

So my Hubby has 1.5 years left in the navy. He is an E-6 ELT on a sub. He will be getting out after 12 years. I was wondering what yalll thought about staying in and trying to do LDO or staying in and seaman to officer or just say hell with it and get out cause the quality of life would be better. What is holding me back from saying forget this navy life is the retirement at the age of 38. Well someone please give me some opinions before he signs on the dotted line again.

It depends.   Is he happy?  Does he come home miserable from the sub and that rubs off on the family?

1.  Officer Program normally means "college education program".   He can start working on college now, also apply to an officer program now, and see how far each path gets over the 1.5 years.   If he's going to get out, he's late if he didn't start some kind of college program...soon.   In any event, doing nothing is the wrong answer for a future technical career.

2.  Navy Retirement.  It's not an insignificant amount of money when you add up the paycheck, COLA, and benefits....for life.   (In the millions).   Would he like to do another 8 years for...lets say...$2M?    (https://staynavytools.bol.navy.mil/RetCalc/Default.aspx has good income estimation calculators) Also, the Tricare for Retirees is not a trivial benefit either.   Many people who leave the Navy without retiring are finding the cost of an equivalent civilian health care program can run about $900/month just for the employee's share.   The Tricare Dental for Retirees is among the best available.   So, you have some significant benefits to consider for another 8 years.

3. Loss of Federal Tax Advantage, State Taxes.  Also on the StayNavy website...calculate how much he will have to make before taxes to bring home the same paycheck.   Then, can he make that amount if he were to write a resume today?

4.  How can he make the most of the next 8 years?   Is he EOOW/EWS qualified?  (Many people consider that too late and then try to get into a commercial SRO program...only to find they're not eligible).   What does he want his resume to say one day in 1.5 years, or in 10 years?   Then, how can the Navy help him achieve his long-term goals?   During a prototype tour at KAPL, he can get a RPI full engineering degree.   Radiation Protection post-Navy?  Then, maybe a CHP certification and/or RCTQS/RCT at an NRMD (with still enough time for an engineering technology degree).   

4.  LDO puts him into being a technical manager (not into shooting torpedoes or being a CO some day).   Getting that experience as a Project Manager, QA Officer, RADCON Officer, etc can add opportunities that are otherwise unavailable as an enlisted.   CPO/SCPO/MCPO...all offer increasing amount of responsibility through CSS and TYCOM jobs as well.   

Don't assume that life is a garden of eden in the civilian world though either.   It all depends on what you want as a family, and what he wants/needs to do for his own self-worth.   I've seen many that LOVE going out to sea, and some that are completely miserable the whole time.  Therefore, the fundamental question is for his family to decide.   In any event, the day will come when he'll have to prepare the resume.  He does need to decide...today what he wants it to say when he separates.   This Forum is filled with questions about "HELP....getting out in 3 months"; however, it's too late to change much on your resume at that point.   

Excellent time to ask some good questions!  Good Luck!

Co60

[kp88]

The decision as to whether or not to consider a Navy career should be made in the first enlistment.  After twelve years of service, at least a couple of re-enlistments have happened, so, you've got a level of comfort in the Navy.
A lot of benefits will be thrown away should you be willing to start over, and you will be starting over.  That level of comfort and support gets thrown away too.
But, then again, nobody takes a commercial nuclear plant to sea for nine months at a time either.  That's hard on the family, to say the least.
Good luck with your decision.

[Fermi2]

From someone who will be retirement eligible next year at age 37.....

STAY

Tell your husband to apply for every officer program there is...Seaman to Admiral, LDO, etc.  Just know that you have to serve ten years as an officer before you can retire....even if that means you are over 20.

However, the navy needs good CPO's also, so I would recommend staying even if he does not get an officer program

In my opinion, 12 years is too much time to throw away a guaranteed income and health care for life.

Just my opinion.

GC

Agreed. My guess is if he's any good he'll make the money back he might lose within 6 years but that's NOT the same as having it guaranteed in 8 years.

Mike

[NukeLDO]

I made the decision to stay at the 11 year point...couldn't see throwing away all those years I invested to make Chief....applied for and got the LDO program...23 years this February....and just accepted a set of orders down to Norfolk and another 2 years.  Never imagined this is how that first enlistment would turn out!  
Sure, its had its ups and downs...some good folks and some bad folks...but I keep on learning something new every day, and I still enjoy my job and the difference I get to make.  Its also nice knowing that when I get done, I won't have to worry about paying the mortgage.

[Fermi2]

I wouldn't put in more than 20 as it's the same as working for half pay.

Mike

[NukeLDO]

I wouldn't put in more than 20 as it's the same as working for half pay.

Mike

I understand the thought process behind this quote, but it isn't true in all cases.  If you are enlisted or officer for an entire career, it makes sense.  But, as GC said above, enlisted to officer folks have to do 10 years to retire with the commission.  So, there is a group of folks who are past the 20 year point, less than the 10 years as an officer mark, but cannot retire...they can resign... and they get no pension.  Its not a one size fits all principle.

[Fermi2]

Thanks my friend,

I knew there had to be a caveat as you seem too intelligent to work for free.

Mike

[DDMurray]

At my 12-year point I was going to get out.  I even had a job at Intel with a start date.  My wife and I decided at the last minute that the medical and retirement benefits were too important to pass up, plus about half of those last 8 years would be on shore duty.  Somehow I made E-8 and then E-9.  So I stayed almost 24.  I used to think staying past 20 was for 1/2 pay but then I decided to stay past 20 to go to the SSN 23.  At my 20-year point my retirement pay would have been about $1600/ month (two years at E-8, high 3).  At my 24+ retirement (2+ years at E-9) I'm getting about $3000/month.

Guys who joined under Redux make even more for each extra year if they took the lump sum.

Probably the hardest decision I ever made was to stay in, but I'm glad I did.  Good Luck!

DM

[Fermi2]

Is your retirement half your base pay?

[sovbob]

Is your retirement half your base pay?

The short answer is: Yes.

The longer answer is:  Well, sort of.  Quoting MILPERSMAN 7220-130 22 Aug 2002 "Methods of Computing Retainer Pay for a Member of the Fleet Reserve"
http://www.npc.navy.mil/ReferenceLibrary/MILPERSMAN/7000FinancialMgmt/7220_130.htm

1.  Rate for Retainer Pay

    a.  Enlisted personnel transferred to the Fleet Reserve are entitled to receive retainer pay computed at the rate of 2-1/2 percent of the basic pay being received at the time of transfer, multiplied by the total number of years of active service (including constructive service earned prior to 31 December 1977).

If you do the math, 2.5% x 20 = 50%, but if you continue past 20 years, you can get as much as 75% base pay, if you do a full 30 years.

There is, of course, fine print to consider.  Such as this little bit from DoD Directive 1332.20 Feb 26, 1981 "Minimum Service in Grade for Nondisability (Voluntary) Retirement"
http://biotech.law.lsu.edu/blaw/dodd/corres/html/133220.htm

3.1.  It is the policy of the Department of Defense that the approval of requests for nondisability (voluntary) retirement from members serving in grades E-7, E-8, E-9, W-3, and W-4 shall require a minimum of 2 years of active duty in grade unless such members are entitled by law to a higher retired grade upon retirement.  Approval of transfers to the Fleet Reserve or the Fleet Marine Corps Reserve in pay grades E-7 through E-9 also shall require a minimum of 2 years of active duty in such grades.

So let's say you're a year away from retiring, and you just made E-8.  You would have to serve for two years as an E-8 before you could retire as one.  (There is always the option to retire as an E-7, but that's an awful lot of money you'd be losing)

[Fermi2]

So regardless of any pay raises he received he still worked for half pay.

Mike

[Creeker]

Well, that's true.  But your original statement of

I wouldn't put in more than 20 as it's the same as working for half pay.

doesn't tell the whole story, and that is what DDMurray's post was about.  He wasn't disputing the half pay concept.  
If 4 more years would have got me an extra $1400 per month for the rest of my life, I'd have done it, even if I had to work for half pay those 4 years.

[Fermi2]

Or get out, more than earn that money over a 5 year period plus be ahead from a raise standpoint at that 5 year point.
Look I'm great with someone spending the extra time in because they love the job, or because they love serving their country. I happened to get great satisfaction out of both when I was in the Navy. But financially NO WAY.

Mike

[DDMurray]

Just prior to my retirement (Nov 2008):
Base Pay:           5391.60
SDAP (Pro Pay):   300.00
Sub Pay:             425.00
BAH                   1994.00
BAS                   294

Total Comp     8404.60 (My retirement check is about $3000/ month, about 62% of 4848)

In Jan 2006 when I could have retired as an E-8 (at my 21 year point)
Base Pay:          4071.6
BAH:                   1763
SDAP:                  450
Sub Pay               425
Sea Pay               500   

Total Comp        7209.6    (My retirement check would have been around $2100- 52.5% of around $4000)

Had I retired at my 20 year point in 2004 my retirement check would have been around the 1600 I quoted earlier (50% of 3200, it could have been a little more, I can't find those pay records)

My last year I worked for 64% of my pay.

The downside of this is I could have gotten a 4 year earlier start on my second career.  In late 2000 (my 16 year point in the navy), I obligated to March 2006 to accept orders to the SSN 23.  At the time I had been a Chief for 9 years and assumed I would never advance again.  I made E-8 in 2002, then E-9 in 2005.  From my perspective, it was a wise move to stay the extra 33 months for the extra money.  That time was spent at a job I enjoyed as a Squadron bull nuke.  It was "shore duty", but I averaged about five days a month at sea.  I was from the government and I was there to help.

   

[Creeker]

I guess I just don't see the difference in getting out at 12 vice 20, and 20 vice 24.  12 vice 20, aren't you giving up those 8 years of increased wages, seniority, and job progression?

[JsonD13]

If you use the STAY Navy calculator, and do not take any job for less than what it calculates as your civilian equivalent pay, your'e quality of life will go up dramatically.  That calculator is something the Navy promotes for people to stay in.  As an 8 year E-6, my equivalent pay was only 60K/year.  I make more than that.  I get to choose when, where and who I see for medical appointments.  Time off doesnt include weekends on the outside (I get way more paid time off than in the Navy).  There is no duty, no shave requirements (unless wearing a respirator), no cramped spaces to do admin work, better training programs, better policy, and a bunch of other things that generally make me much happier than if I would have stayed in. 

If you are really concerned about the retirement check, go reserves and collect the check when you are 60.  The Navy's idea of retirement is not really retirement because you still have to go to work to live afterwards.  If you get out when you are around 40, your'e house might not be paid off till you are 70.  That's five years after the standard retirement age.  Do you think that small 3000/month check will pay for the house payment and expenses?  Granted this doesn't apply to people who live around where they were stationed, but most of us that joined the Navy did not live right next to base to begin with.

Jason

[Irish]

I am retired Navy (grey area) O-3. I never served in subs or with any Nukes. I am wondering what causes such consistent CREO 1 numbers for all NUKES across the board. Please tell me the reasons NUKE sailors get out after their first enlistment. Also, please tell me why a recruit can pick MM in the training pipeline and get it with no questions asked. That sounds great, but is there a catch? Is it because being an MM(N) sucks and the Navy needs to pray for NUKE sailors to ask for MM and keep all MM volunteers? I hope its a good reason however. In addition, why once a NUKE volunteers for sub duty, they can't ever change to surface? Again, is it because sub duty sucks but you're stuck there. I hope that's not the reason. Please educate me.

[spekkio]

I am retired Navy (grey area) O-3. I never served in subs or with any Nukes. I am wondering what causes such consistent CREO 1 numbers for all NUKES across the board. Please tell me the reasons NUKE sailors get out after their first enlistment.

The target demographic for nuke recruiting are people who have high academic aptitude, but elect to defer college for financial or personal discipline/motivational reasons. The nuke program promises fast advancement to E-4 (E-5 shortly thereafter by passing an exam or STAR reenlisting), an academically challenging program, and a 'best of the best' prestige that appeals to this demographic.

After an initial enlistment, most nukes are capable of making equal or greater pay in the civilian work force for fewer hours, a more regular sleep schedule, and no underway time.

Also, please tell me why a recruit can pick MM in the training pipeline and get it with no questions asked.

Not true.

In addition, why once a NUKE volunteers for sub duty, they can't ever change to surface?

For the same reason that surface nukes don't go subs, that AMs don't become MMs, or that SWOs don't command subs. Sailors are specialized technicians, and re-training someone to an entirely different community/platform cost $$$. There is an administrative process for someone to attempt to 'cross-rate,' but it is not a very commonly approved thing without some other special circumstances.

[HeavyD]

Quote

Also, please tell me why a recruit can pick MM in the training pipeline and get it with no questions asked.


Not true.

A recruit can be guaranteed MM when they join, at least they could when I retired back in 2011.  Now, that could have changed, but that's what was allowed 5 years ago.

A part of the reasoning was fairly simple; in any given Reactor Department (carriers/cruisers) or Engineering Department (subs), there are more MM billets.  Manning plays a major role in almost everything to do with the Navy, as I'm sure you're aware of.

[fiveeleven]

I am wondering what causes such consistent CREO 1 numbers for all NUKES across the board. Please tell me the reasons NUKE sailors get out after their first enlistment.
First two days back in USA after 7 mo. Med. deployment. All married(NP pay recipients) and MELT fay vo right swabbies hitting the brow. MELT least fay vo rights left on board to get those finicky gennies into wet layup. No problem - challenge was welcomed and embraced. 48 hrs. later with a few hours of shuteye in the logs, gennies stable, ph dandy, primary H2 at 20, double time it to the brow and back in the world. Nope -  exit denied due to haircut not up to the standard of an obese, sweat hog, anti nuke HT chief whose belt buckle is not visible to the naked eye under the layers of blubber and has a tude cause it took him 10 yrs. to hit E5. I dunno- Seemed like 6 and out was the right path for the rudder. MM2/ELT USS Nimitz CVN-68. 80-84 BOHICA