Rent a tech Union debate

[MR BIG]

Wish there was something out there that was worthwhile.  What is out there is just a repeat of the past for more money per month.  Nothing concrete to offer, just empty promises.  And for those who say "Open a line of communication with them (NPUA) and read the website", many of us have and still nothing concrete, just empty promises and trust us.  Why should we trust someone who is self appointed and not voted in.  Sounds more like a company than a union.

I think things will change with experience leaving the field and non experience and those who are either lazy or don't or cant work left.
Just the way it looks from a workers stand point.

So what you're saying is I'm going to look out for number 1 Right? How selfish and devicsive (spelling) that is. Now don't get offended. But that's been the whole problem for 30 years. We don't want to come together for a good cause. Oh yeah, it's gonna cost us $40 a month. WOW, I don't know if I can afford that? Give me a break. that boils down to 2 sodas a day! If you can't afford that for a chance to get these utilities to recognize us than you need to get into another line of business and anyone else that feels that way. Have you ever tried to "invest" your money into your future? I'm sure it was alot more than 2 sodas a day. Take a chance for once in your life. This isn't 1989!
Totally different situation now. This will work if we would just support it.

Don't get mad or judge someone that is trying to make a difference. Maybe some of us are just ticked off cause we didn't think of it first and have the guts to step out there and get the ball rolling. And NO, I am no part of the NPUA. I just think it's our best shot at getting someone to listen to us.

Food for thought

[jrad]

FINALLY !!!!!

Someone who thinks like i do! I think this NPUA is the best chance we have at finally making some money and having some security. Im sure it wont be perfect, but nothing is right! I mean at least then maybe i can make a little more hourly than the fire watches. Not that im putting down their job at all, they just dont have the responsibilty on their shoulders that i do as a tech. I'm all for this union!!   

[RAD-GHOST]

I have seen technicians covering the same high dose job with wide variances in exposure. At first glance one would think that the technician with more dose is obviously doing a better job of controlling the work than the technician who has 1/2 of the exposure of the first technician.

Upon further review you find that the technician with double the dose is in reality just hanging around the higher dose areas, maybe out of curiosity(?) of the work being done. This does not equate to more pay in my world.

Mine either, but it does equate to a lack of experience and training, "The main topics of todays Industry"!

My response addressed the varience between the sitter and the getters!  Although all task are essencial to the successful completion of the outage, some demand more responsibility then others and some add an increased recognized risk to the individual.  More responsibility and risk equate to better compensation in the real world, which doesn't happen to be our world!

Actually I would suggest compensation directly related to the LACK of DOSE!  Pull out those ALARA estimates and assign a dose goal to the area's Technician team for all projects with an accumulated estimate over 1 Rem for Health Physics, (make it a realistic goal)!  Meet it, get an added bonus!  Beat it by 10%, double the bonus!  Beat it by 20%, quadruple it!  Offer an incentive like that and some of your sitters will learn the jobs and become getters!  Then again, some facilities can keep running the same old game of sitters and getters.  The same pay while working ten feet from the coffee pot and an outage goal of 1 mr vs. suited and sweating in the loops, picking up a couple of hundred millirem, what kind of incentive is that? 

Imagine that, a program that breeds technical competance and reduced exposure!

WHAT A NOVEL CONCEPT!

Just a Rant and probably off topic, RG!

[hoghunter]

I think maybe the idea is good,but let's face the facts.I don't think this could ever happen for a few reasons.I agree with Shovelheadred about people being individual and self centered.I got in the business. in 81. I know then work was more easy to find and times were easier to live,but all things changes,but the one that doesn't is our right to make choices.We all know even if we worked at Micky-D's or at some warehouse we would still find a way to bitch about money,the way we are treated or even the person working beside you.We could be working for min. wage and killing ourselves for it. I've tried normal working man life, I've ran my own Roofing and framing crew,worked for plumbers,bricklayers and I could go on,but in the end I come back we all know we could use higher wages,but forming a union isn't it.Henry Black hit it on the head come to work do your work with pride and respect your coworkers and you can keep work. I was raised get $ earn the $.Union I feel will keep the lazy man working and put the working one out.I guess I'm saying I've worked for a lot of comp.such as IRM,NSS,Powersystems just to name a few but Bart. has been good to me over the years they have kept me work and as for Recruiters not telling all we know that has been like that since the beginning of time. If we could all unite that would be good but this isn't the Bonny and Clyde days anymore people are to selfish

[nowhereman]

The whole debate on this centers on two issues that persist on this blog....1.the sitters vs the getters and 2. pay........but a union won't solve those.......a  legitimate recognized trade will have a legitimate recognized union with a legitimate recognized apprentice training program..period  .........the hp apprentice program I see in training is to throw some dedicated deconners in a corner of a noisy classroom(all the senior hp's are talking about back at oyster creek  we did it this way.......) with some procedure books, the NUF study guide, and then a two hour class on how to read a meter..........certainly the utilities don't use that approach when training their junior house  hp's....   oh by the way how many years does it take a junior hp to get enough hours(working outages) to get to senior hp status?

The utilities, bartlett, inpo(ahh....the golden parachute club...) and the nrc all sit by idly, happy that it's not costing money to get the warm bodies they need....I have talked to RPM's about the training program and the standard response has been....what day did you get your badge?  Oh I came in on monday and I got my badge on wednesday afternoon. and the rpm says see our training program works it should only take 2.8 days from when you walk on site till you have your badge......

Bartlett has shown some initiative in overcoming staffing issues.......I believe their hp development program is more centered on which country can they go to next....

so don't fret...the status quo will remain and the union will never have a chance...

[ramdog_1]

No whereMan
you hit it right on the chops. You have the F.O.B.s who have the training for book smarts and have to learn to be an hp on the go. But that  club is for the navey guys who served there time. but also there are those who have worked there way up I recall having a decon type person more than happy to set A/S and get smears and learn how to count them.  But those days seem to be gone.
get 150 techs togather and if you are paying for a home, kids in school and  bills to pay. Well most people will go to work. If we are to work in a union a person is better to go house. That is my feelings. But if this can be put togather it would be good for all.
What the heck all it takes is one person to get it going.
good luck

[johnnieslingshot]

I was a chief steward for 6 years when I worked at Charleston Naval Shipyard and I must say that the union(IAM&AW) got along well with management.  There were a few problems from time to time but we were able to work everything out.  I electricians union there though had a lot of problems.  It seemed as though they were unwilling to be flexible in any way.  I for one would love to be part of a union again but only if I knew that it would not turn out to be a "good ol' boys club" and that it would truely work for getting us the wages and benefits we deserve.  Hard nose union activity would be a real turn-off.

[nowhereman]

If the "union" could concentrate on a legitimate cornerstone of a training  program for apprentices and institute a wage progression scale based on hours worked, you may have some traction for getting a union,

however, the only thing I have seen from NPUA's web site is about wages/per diem, so the discourse will remain the same.........1. the sitters vs. the getters  2.we should get a raise, because 87% of the hp's passed the meter reading test....

I would like to see a union for hp's,..... but if the only concern from the union is a wage scale, I am not going to vote for half of a union....

[Chimera]

If the "union" could concentrate on a legitimate cornerstone of a training  program for apprentices and institute a wage progression scale based on hours worked, you may have some traction for getting a union,

Superficially, that sounds good.  However, how would you recommend a union for contractor HP/RP/RCT Techs handle the training issue?  With well over 100 possible sites (commercial nuke, DOE, research, medical, remediation, etc.), how would you construct a training program for the Juniors/Deconners and what exam process would you recommend to ascertain if they have acquired enough knowledge to be considered for Senior status?  Who would be the accreditation facility?  Would the NRRPT accept the classes towards their maintenance program as legitimate training?  Who pays for the training - the Tech, the contract company, the client?

In all fairness, I learned most everything I know through self-study and mentoring by some very patient Seniors when I first started on the road back in 1974.  I've managed to learn enough to pass the NRRPT and to no longer sweat the NUF when it comes up.  This brings up another issue: Should the Techs who do OJT and mentoring get special credit relative to their union status along with counting their time and dose?

Michael

[nowhereman]

well in the past, self study and being dedicated and mentoring worked.........over the last 5 years, I could count on one hand the number of viable juniors willing to learn....

the union would be the voice of the technicians.......and I believe that pushing a training program is a  better alternative that hp's would like to see, instead of going to different countries to recruit workers.....the union could sit there and run the admin part  and document a training program just like bartlett does...

The utilities have the most at stake regarding staffing of hp's.......they have the accredited training program, they have access to nantel/pads......would a 40 hr class for juniors seem unreasonable?

right now the system is broken down, virtually every outage staffed is 10 to 15 people short(unless they are paying a $8/hr bonus), it is only a matter of time before management at the utilities says "hey the outage went well with 15 people short, lets staff accordingly next time....."

[Chimera]

the union would be the voice of the technicians.......and I believe that pushing a training program is a  better alternative that hp's would like to see, instead of going to different countries to recruit workers.....the union could sit there and run the admin part  and document a training program just like bartlett does...

Once again, superficially this looks reasonable.  However, the utilities' training cycles cover anywhere from one to three years (depending on the utility and what is included in the scope of their training).  DOE requires retraining on the Core materials every two years.

The utilities would be of no help when it comes to other sites, i.e., research, laboratories, D&D, DOE, medical, irradiation facilities, etc.  Where do they get their training?  What happens to the NANTEL classes after all these diverse facilities have their input for their own specialized needs?  Where do we find all the instructors and CBT developers needed to accomplish this monumental undertaking?  Do you think the utilities would be interested in absorbing the cost of an additional 40-hour class for contractors that will only be there once every 18 months - assuming they all return to the same utility every outage?

I must interject that I'm not disagreeing with you.  I think a formalized training system is essential to developing new Seniors.  However, I don't think the union is the vehicle to accomplish this goal.  I'm also not sure what would be an acceptable vehicle to cover the diverse range of needs within our profession.  In our contractor world, the onus has always resided with the individual to learn.  Some Seniors are good at helping the Juniors and Deconners learn, but there needs to be a better way to get more people involved as the influx of new people increases.

The union would be an excellent for maintaining a data base that includes training and other professional qualifications.  At the utilities, the unions have nothing to do with the actual training or maintaining a data base of qualifications.  They only track time-in-grade that automatically advances the technician to the next pay grade.  If you add in performance and tracking of training to the union's functions, the utilities (as well as other facilities) might well object and they would demand an input into the curriculum.

[Nuclear NASCAR]

..... At the utilities, the unions have nothing to do with the actual training or maintaining a data base of qualifications.  They only track time-in-grade that automatically advances the technician to the next pay grade.  If you add in performance and tracking of training to the union's functions, the utilities (as well as other facilities) might well object and they would demand an input into the curriculum.

I can only speak for my location, but we have Union journeymen teaching some classes, scheduling the OJT & TPE, and even doing the TPE's.  Again, every situation and location is different and I can only speak for Callaway.

[SloGlo]

Superficially, that sounds good.  However, how would you recommend a union for contractor HP/RP/RCT Techs handle the training issue?  With well over 100 possible sites (commercial nuke, DOE, research, medical, remediation, etc.), how would you construct a training program .... 

due knot axe da yammer hammers here how two due that.  go talk with any union craft journeyman.  he'll tell yinz what classes he had to dew.  how long it took.  iffen he ever did naught git inna place becaws he wassant qualified.  afftar ya due dat, bring yer reseerch bak hear 'n tell every buddy watt ya learnt.

[hatchling2002]

I am in amazement of this whole thread. I can't believe the bantering about something that hasn't been thought out by anyone. I'm not saying I know it all, but none of the comments are based in reality.

"The union would be an excellent for maintaining a data base that includes training and other professional qualifications.  At the utilities, the unions have nothing to do with the actual training or maintaining a data base of qualifications.  They only track time-in-grade that automatically advances the technician to the next pay grade.  If you add in performance and tracking of training to the union's functions, the utilities (as well as other facilities) might well object and they would demand an input into the curriculum. "
Maintaining a database that includes training and other professional qualifications is already done by each of the contract companies. Just for instance: Atlantic Group does not call me and ask me to work on valves. Bartlett calls me to place me as an RP Technician. The databases are already there. Each utility, even those that are in the same system, have different qualification requirements as far as their plant goes. The utility would demand input into the curriculum. The utilities have a database they rely on and it's called PADS, past that they rely on the contract company to ensure qualified people are chosen from their databases to show up. That's when the worker has to meets the utilities internal testing requirements. i.e...welding, QC, valves, RT certifications, RP procedures, just to name a few. This is something a union can't do.


"the union would be the voice of the technicians.......and I believe that pushing a training program is a  better alternative that hp's would like to see, instead of going to different countries to recruit workers.....the union could sit there and run the admin part  and document a training program just like bartlett does..."

Which technicians would that be? Three quarters of the one's in my break room are just filling space by the contract company so they meet the numbers. 90% of them sit and B&*^% about the lack of this, the lack of that, the movie for the night, they're late with the ice cream, I don't get paid enough, I had to a 2 hour jump tonight, they own me this, they don't respect me. I actually witnessed an incident with several RP techs the other day about writing a survey. 3 of them, all 3 couldn't figure out how to document a smear >500,000 dpm/100cm2. They didn't even have a meter with them and was insulted when the lead tech. asked them what the open window reading was. The lead tech. smiled and let them go and the only account of the whole thing is written here. The last outage I was at I found out some people were radioing surveys. You can pay these same people 100 dollars an hour and they will be the same slug. The union won't and can't fix that. A union will ensure these same people will be equal to you and me. There is a training program, it's called college. Pilots have to have a certification before showing up to Delta, and then Delta trains them to their aircraft. Welders have to have a certification, and then they show up to be certified to the plant they are at. I have to pay to take a drivers license test. If I show up to a union hall and claim that I'm the next best thing to canned beer and sliced bread. I would still have to prove it when I got to my job, each time every time.
How many work force companies take fresh off the street people and train them to a technical position with out reimbursement? And, on top of that tell them they are contractors.


I could go on and on with a critique of each comment, just like it's going to be done to mine. Instead of filling my break room with banter about making things better with a union, step over there and help the ones that need the help now. Who's going to run this thing? What you're talking about will need a whole staff, headquarters, rules, computers, structure and most of all money. Do you realize most nuclear power plants are in right to work states? By not joining a union, I will make and have the same benefits as those that do belong. There's a job for everyone I know, but will I make more if I can actually get up and perform my job? Where's my union hall going to be? Who's my steward and do I get a voice in that? Is it a union only for Bartlett RP's? There are many other RP's in this country that aren't commercial. If I'm guarding a locked high radiation area and walk off cause I have to use the bathroom, will a union guarantee my job? Will I make more if I know how to determine mrad/hr?

Respect is earned not demanded. Look around the room, is it equal? Raising the money will allow the plant to pick from a better pool of resumes. I'm not sure where mine would be. Have you ever seen a guy at your grocery store, service station, favorite bar, tire place, concert just working their ass off? Working their ass off for minimum wage. If you paid those people 100.00 an hour they couldn't work any harder type people. That's me. If the people in my break room all earned 100.00 and hour, would they still sit and complain they didn't earn enough as they were watching the next movie? Yes they would. And, that's the rub. The plants know that. Sometimes lumps of coal can't turn into diamonds.

I don't mean to pick on the 2 comments I've remarked about, that's just where I stopped. I've been a member of the teamsters union for 10 years. Yall all need to go spend time down to one of the halls. Take a moment to figure out what you're asking for and who's going to control you next. Is it a union or company that they want to start? Some will say that I'm selfish or unrealistic. Well, when I get on site I've made my deal. When others get on site they wanna complain about the deal they've made. It's funny about the line in the sand and standing on the other side of it.

Respect is earned not demanded. It's a big steam machine, it's not gonna stop for me or you.

[nowhereman]

none of the comments are based in reality? the only junior hp training program I have seen is to throw the junior hp's in the back of a noisy classroom with procedures and the nuf study guide, and then give them a several hour class on how to read a meter.....how many times do you walk out of a "meter reading test" and people have to stay behind because they had trouble reading a meter?     and as far as sitting in a break room? all the outages I go to are staffed 10 to 15 people short, so sitting in a break room is a luxury....

actually the status quo is  quite broken, yet no one wants to admit that.....if the union could be a vehicle to at legitimize a training program, well that's better than the H1B visa program fixing our problems.

[SloGlo]

none of the comments are based in reality? the only junior hp training program I have seen is to throw the junior hp's in the back of a noisy classroom with procedures and the nuf study guide, and then give them a several hour class on how to read a meter

obb vee us lee yew ain't seen a union programme.  goe tak a look.

[hatchling2002]

obb vee us lee yew ain't seen a union programme.  goe tak a look.

Which one are you talking about? Caterpillar Inc., United Auto Workers, Ronald Regan and the air traffic controllers, Common Wealth and you're a contractor and you can't cover house people, ConAgra or just the local welders hall? I have seen union programs, been part of several of them in one aspect or the other. I've got a computer and can do the research. I won't support another one. I work in a right to work state and don't have to support one. The logistics can't be worked out.

The power plants are enjoying the diversion of the chatter of all of this as they hire from a pool that none of us are part of. The power plants are backing 2 year programs all around the country and hireling from that pool of people, and will continue to do so. These are people that pay to learn to read a meter. They're not sitting around waiting to pay 40 dollars a month to be trained by a union. Training has to be accredited through IMPO, NRC and the site. Who's paying for these trainers in the union and where are the classes taking place?

Who are we talking about? Is this only for one group? Which craft is forming the union? I'd like to hear all that talked about. Many of the other crafts have unions and find work through them. Find work at the pay that power plant is offering and still have to take test when they get there.

At the plant I'm at, the whispering, the stair well talking and the break room scuttle is only a diversion. I'm in a right to work state right now. Big business won't allow much rhetoric about this in their plants. I know it's not right, not fare and all of that. Who's going to support me and my family if it comes down to walking out? What's the recourse we're talking about?

Why aren't the other crafts in this? You don't have to scratch the surface too much to find out that answer. Go down to their halls and find out the things some of us already know.

Training is not free. Stop sitting around waiting to be paid for training. Those people from the 2 year programs are passing us. Why make it the responsibility of a union to train us? You will still have to pay to be trained properly.

I'm sorry I'm so passionate about this, but come on, I am responsible for my self and I'm not waiting for someone else to tell me who, what, when and where. At the end of a day, I am satisfied with the work I've done. I haven't' crossed the line in the sand so many people have.

This is it for me. good luck with all the endeavors. "Those who forget the past are destined to repeat it."

[dagiffy]

GWB, No problem, everyone's entitled to his or her opinion. Why don't you feel that a union would be beneficial? Just Curious. I think that a union could do a lot of good things for us!
JJ

a union can do great things if it has power to do great things...I was in the UTU with the railroad for amost 7 years, and the whole time all that happened...ALL that happened...was pay increases slower than inflation, loss of jobs, and less protection from management. And it cost us 80 bucks a month.

[rocknrollrick]

Well here goes nothing, but let's face facts there is no one on a nuke site with as much liability as a Radiation Protection Tech. You sign your name to everthing you do on a site and are responsible for it. I come from a Blue Collar Union family and there are pros and cons to being union. It does protect the weak as well as the strong but the real question is in 5 years will there be enough of us left to matter? /b]

[redline]

Well here goes nothing, but let's face facts there is no one on a nuke site with as much liability as a Radiation Protection Tech. You sign your name to everthing you do on a site and are responsible for it. I come from a Blue Collar Union family and there are pros and cons to being union. It does protect the weak as well as the strong but the real question is in 5 years will there be enough of us left to matter? /b]

Well you have opened your mouth and now we all know!

What about the management team, licensed operators, QC, engineering, maintenance....

The fact is, unless an RP tech acts maliciously, or attempts to falsify information, or destroy information that is required to be retained, an RP tech has almost no liability. If you're performing your work as you are trained to the best of your ability, you personally have no liability.

[rocknrollrick]

WOW!!!! where is the plant you work at and what plant is it on??? I was speaking about contractors not house personnel!!!

[Camella Black]

Well you have opened your mouth and now we all know!

What about the management team, licensed operators, QC, engineering, maintenance....

The fact is, unless an RP tech acts maliciously, or attempts to falsify information, or destroy information that is required to be retained, an RP tech has almost no liability. If you're performing your work as you are trained to the best of your ability, you personally have no liability.

I don't know if this is true or not; but seems to me they are the first ones fired when the crap hits the fan... or at least that's the way I've seen it done.

[retired nuke]

Well you have opened your mouth and now we all know!

What about the management team, licensed operators, QC, engineering, maintenance....

The fact is, unless an RP tech acts maliciously, or attempts to falsify information, or destroy information that is required to be retained, an RP tech has almost no liability. If you're performing your work as you are trained to the best of your ability, you personally have no liability.

I don't know if this is true or not; but seems to me they are the first ones fired when the crap hits the fan... or at least that's the way I've seen it done.

In my 25+ yrs of experience, if the renta tech was performing per the procedure, as directed, they didn't become the fall guy. It's the guy that covers for the radio'd survey, the missed air sample, the forgotten stay time, the "I'll just be a minute" wrong RWP that gets canned. When I was covering the radiography overexposure out West, I got an attaboy, and treated to dinner by the RP supv when it was all over.

The ones I've seen fired, shoulda been fired....

[sponge]

Food for thought...

Here at Pilgrim they seem to be having a delay getting some people badged. Plant managemnt isn't paying the contractors to wait for badges. This means if you are waiting for your badge, you aren't getting paid at all.

[Sun Dog]

Food for thought...

Here at Pilgrim they seem to be having a delay getting some people badged. Plant managemnt isn't paying the contractors to wait for badges. This means if you are waiting for your badge, you aren't getting paid at all.

Not really sure what this has to do with a "rent-a-tech union debate" but...

can we hear from someone who is at Pilgrim that is not being paid while they patiently wait for their security badge to be issued after they submitted a properly filled out PHQ, and successfully passed all of the prerequisite training including FFD testing and any craft/task specific testing?