How would you fix the NNPP

[PapaBear765]

You know there's something wrong when I use my highest level of problem solving mental abilities on how to de-conflict the watch bill because of 18 local requirements; some written, some not.  I should be trying to figure out how to plan the shift to maximize the maintenance that gets done.

And my "lower your expectations" remark is due to my bitterness.  I'm all for positive reinforcement, but while we're riding the make-believe train to La La Land I thought it would be best to not ask for too much in the way of suggesting changes in Naval leadership.

[Preciousblue1965]

Touche. 

But thats the thing I don't understand, if the commercial industry is run by mostly ex navy nukes (ops, anyway), then why isn't getting a job at a commercial plant just like working in the navy again? Sure, I see some navy tendencies in a few guys around here, but they are definitely in the minority.

The differences I observed so far include (but are in no way limited to);

Commercial nukes perform their jobs with a much higher level of professionalism.
I haven't got the sense that anyone was being "sleezy" about anything. Although, I must admit that I was a little shocked at the rad con practices when I first saw them. But then I came to realize that the navy radcon program is ridiculously prohibitive. The techs out here are very efficient and know what they are doing really well and we aren't spreading contamination around the world with our methods!
Evolutions or jobs that would require extensive oversight in the navy are handle by lone EO/AO/NLOs most of the time, with maybe a peer check from a counterpart.
People treat each other with respect (going back to my original post).
People are happier. Sure, they have their complaints, always will. But they are no where near the level of the complaints with the NNPP.

I don't know, maybe I am just naive. But something is radically different between the commercial nukes and the NNPP. Is it the money? I certainly will tolerate a higher level of BS for 100K vs 50K. Is it the security in the knowledge that you can move on if you don't like where you are? Is it going home every night? The absence of the military element? Or a combination of a bunch of things? Sometimes I just wonder how things can be so different when so many of the same people that ran the NNPP run commercial nukes. I am sure its just because I am a rookie and with time, will learn all I need to know to fully understand why things are the way they are.

Justin

I could be way off base here but I would guess that the reason that the commercial world is so different from the Navy world despite having so many ex navy guys in the commercial world(full disclosure, I do not work at a commercial plant) is that most of the Navy guys that were the type to cause the most headaches just for the sake of causing a headache don't last too long in the commercial world.  To put it another way, the guys that are running the show in commecial world are the ones that had the people skills to get ahead in the civilian sector.  The ones that didn't have the people skills have moved on to someplace that their particular leadership style(or lack there of) can be effective.  I mean we have all known that guy/girl that stayed in the Navy for 20+ because they probably couldn't hack it on the outside with their personality type. 

I can't believe no one quoted my Carrot on a Stick post.  Tough Crowd.

[cincinnatinuke]

Was this your first clock reset? Congrats!

After bout a year, you were due.

I guess the Navy had clock resets too, it was called 100 attaboys being reset by 1 oh no!

Honestly, its not the worst thing I have ever "accomplished" Jason.

That would have been at a prior job trying to recover a sealed source using "destructive" measures........ie a bandsaw and a drill press.  Original manufacturer was out of business, no prints, no procedure, just my best guess and I missed by 1/32nd of an inch.  I measured twice, cut once and released several mCi of Cs-137 into the atmosphere.  Bad day to say the least.

One thing I loved about the Navy was it taught you to think quickly and absorb tons of material.  And it taught you to work hard and of course play hard.

Commercially, I have learned to slow down, understand what I am doing, what it will affect, and wear a single hat.  Let me expound a bit using some words a seasoned colleague told me.  He was asked prior to his EAOS why he was getting out.  He stated why would he stay in for less money doing 3 to 4 jobs (An elt can do operations, chemistry, rad con, or maintenace) when he can do one job for more money.  This can be applied to any rating, so dont think I am playing a bias here.

Think about it guys.  On top of these many hats in the navy, you also are the boss (LPO at some point), handle schedules like previously mentioned, plan maintenance, perform admin functions, etc.  Commercially, you become a master of one of those trades.  I likes it alot.

[Preciousblue1965]

It is interesting that mention the many "hats" we wear as a nuke.  When I was filling out the paperwork for my VA home loan, the loan officer said that my new job had to be the same as the job I did in the Navy.  She couldn't understand that there isn't a job in the civilian world that is exactly like the job of a nuke in the Navy.  Even if you work at a power plant, you are only operations or Maintenance or Training, whereas in the Navy you get to be all three and then some. 

[JustinHEMI05]

It is interesting that mention the many "hats" we wear as a nuke.  When I was filling out the paperwork for my VA home loan, the loan officer said that my new job had to be the same as the job I did in the Navy.  She couldn't understand that there isn't a job in the civilian world that is exactly like the job of a nuke in the Navy.  Even if you work at a power plant, you are only operations or Maintenance or Training, whereas in the Navy you get to be all three and then some. 

Wait, hate to steer off topic. What the heck does that mean... same job as in the navy? So if I was a nuke and decided to open a pie shop... I couldn't get a VA home loan? Maybe we should split this out because I am in this whole process right now. My awesome realtor and mortgage guy is handling everything so far. Just don't want any surprises. Better yet.. just PM me.

Back on topic.

Justin

[withroaj]

I was thinking about this earlier....

The Navy used to use the "Carrot on a Stick" method to get things done.

The Nuclear Navy has since taken away the carrot and found another use for the stick.

Oh, the carrot's there, all right.  Remember? It only hurt for a bit. 

I can't believe no one quoted my Carrot on a Stick post.  Tough Crowd.

Consider it quoted.  I do my best.

[Wirebiter]

I know that the "upper C.o.C" is aware of some of the stressing points of NNP.  I was lucky/unlucky enough to go out to sea and bring aboard about 9 congressional aids/assistants/etc.. six months ago.  In this group were two people that worked, in some fashion, on the civilian side of naval reactors.  My impression of there jobs lead me to believe that they exist where the navy ends and where political leadership begins, but anyway...  After their 48 hour tour aboard my boat, we small boat transferred them and myself off.  One of the female NR/congress persons remembered me from her engineroom tours and struck up a conversation about many of the same topics within this thread.  Since I was soon leaving the nuclear navy, and it was a long tug ride back, I gave her a snickers bar and proceeded to spill my guts.

Summary:

"They" did know about the difficulty in retaining the 8-14 year group and the difficulty in placing enough people within the program to make it to the fleet (she stated that based upon her numbers, this was getting better over the last 5-7 years).  "They" are aware of the strong pull by commercial nuke power against keeping people in and how it will only get stronger as more plants come on line.  "They" believe that higher S.R.B.'s and enlistment bonuses are not the longterm answer, but seem to be the current prescription, although she expects them to continue to rise for ET's and MM/ELTs.

What I enlightened her about were the storys of prototype staff and ex-staff, alike, as to why more people were making it to the fleet.  Having not done a tour at either riverboat or in the frozen tundra of the north, I could only pass on what I had heard from multiple independent sources, and the subsequent results to the fleet.  She was not aware of our immense training and retraining administrative requirements including the man hours spent in such endeavors.  I also threw in why, I felt, so many ETs/ ELTs were getting out of the navy, even though they were a year our two away from Chief.  Also, why it was common to see 6-9 year ET chiefs as the norm.
So many things started to come up about maintenance requirements and in port watchbills that I could tell I was losing her, so I pulled back and smiled.  She thanked me immensely when we got back to port, and gave me her business card with her private email written on the back.  I passed it to my LPO and told him to keep in touch with her.

There is some communication flowing through the NNPP, but as with any large, cumbersome creature, it will take sometime to get a reaction.

As a funny side-note.  I found out that Naval Reactors is requiring every line eligible, newly commissioned Ensign to interview with Naval Reactors before proceeding to their first command.  It is screwing up all the Navy pilot school convene dates because they have to let their incoming Ensigns go to D.C. for the interviews.  There are a lot of pissed off air-dales right now.


-Rob

[Preciousblue1965]

Wirebiter, That is some good insight into what could happen years down the road.  As we all know, the Navy is VERY slow in getting around to anything that might make life better for its sailors.  If it will screw over the rank and file, expect it to come down with expediance.

Justin, I gave my thoughts some more time to simmer and it also came to my realization of another aspect of why Civ Vs Navy is so different.  As a civilian, if you truly hate the person you work for, then you can always walk away from the situation with no other reprecusssions.  You have the ability to find another job in the mean time, then leave.  You have no such option in the Navy and those in power know that no matter how much someone despises you, they can't just up and leave(most nukes no matter what will not risk the Big Chicken Dinner just because they despise their CO) and have to do what they say no matter how dumb it is.  There is no customer service to worry about, and you effectively have indentured servents to do your bidding.  This is the atmosphere that allows people with no people skills get ahead and stay in.  Ok enough of my two cents. BTW hope I answered your question.

[DSO]

Wirebiter, That is some good insight into what could happen years down the road.  As we all know, the Navy is VERY slow in getting around to anything that might make life better for its sailors.  If it will screw over the rank and file, expect it to come down with expediance.

Justin, I gave my thoughts some more time to simmer and it also came to my realization of another aspect of why Civ Vs Navy is so different.  As a civilian, if you truly hate the person you work for, then you can always walk away from the situation with no other reprecusssions.  You have the ability to find another job in the mean time, then leave.  You have no such option in the Navy and those in power know that no matter how much someone despises you, they can't just up and leave(most nukes no matter what will not risk the Big Chicken Dinner just because they despise their CO) and have to do what they say no matter how dumb it is.  There is no customer service to worry about, and you effectively have indentured servents to do your bidding.  This is the atmosphere that allows people with no people skills get ahead and stay in.  Ok enough of my two cents. BTW hope I answered your question.

You are "exactly right" The rights you have in the Navy are much less than in the civilian world--no matter what bunk the command gives you that you have them. The CO's can play "Road Captain" (aka Cool Hand Luke) and you are just a glorified indentured servant---I think some of the leadership will have a hard time out in the Civilan world where they have to treat people somewhat decently--and probably shrivel up or have heart attacks

[Preciousblue1965]

Now I would like clarify that I do not feel that all officers and chiefs are of the nature stated above.  There are a lot that will go to bat for you and stand up in the face of stupidity.  It is the apperance that there are more of the former than the latter.  Going along with the NRRO vs Crew/Boat/Ship topic, I think that there are some good officers that are forced to being jerks because of pressure from above.  Along that same thought process another thing I have noticed, most prevailant at Prototype, is that policies and practices will be implemented by people who have no idea how difficult it will be to fully implement.  Case in point, when they added the third path to Mechanic qual books.  Their logic-it will help qualify more students because they will be able to have more spots on the watchbill for qualifying.  Reality was that it increased the workload on the crews significantly by adding additional watchstanders and made the students stand 4 additional watches than previously required.  I am all in favor of getting more experience under these guys belts but when one of the watches that was pretty cake to begin with gets split into two, one of the two watches logs litterly too <1 minute and the other about 3 mins, it is a waste of time and effort. 

[Preciousblue1965]

This might be covered somewhere else, but I feel it is somewhat related to this thread.  Does anyone else feel that we could use MORE prior enlisted nukes becoming officers.  With a few exceptions, prior enlisted guys tend to be much better officers than those who start out O-Gang.  Not trying to say that all prior enlisted nuke officers are great or that non-prior enlisted officers are all jerks, just an observation that I noticed in my 9 years.  I personally believe that if the NNPP had more prior enlisted guys as officers that things would be a little better, and not just the ones fresh out of the pipeline, get a few that have been on the pond for a while. 

[93-383]

This might be covered somewhere else, but I feel it is somewhat related to this thread.  Does anyone else feel that we could use MORE prior enlisted nukes becoming officers.  With a few exceptions, prior enlisted guys tend to be much better officers than those who start out O-Gang.  Not trying to say that all prior enlisted nuke officers are great or that non-prior enlisted officers are all jerks, just an observation that I noticed in my 9 years.  I personally believe that if the NNPP had more prior enlisted guys as officers that things would be a little better, and not just the ones fresh out of the pipeline, get a few that have been on the pond for a while. 

From my experiance most of the worst officers I worked for where prior enlisted nukes. I personnaly think we need less of them, far too many LDO types cannot seperate themselves from their former roles as Cheifs. Plus in the worst cases having a prior MM (or worse ELT) run RM or M div these officers have not been enlisted for many years, yet some of them think they know more about the equipment than the enlisted who try to keep it running every day.

[Preciousblue1965]

From my experiance most of the worst officers I worked for where prior enlisted nukes. I personnaly think we need less of them, far too many LDO types cannot seperate themselves from their former roles as Cheifs. Plus in the worst cases having a prior MM (or worse ELT) run RM or M div these officers have not been enlisted for many years, yet some of them think they know more about the equipment than the enlisted who try to keep it running every day.

Perhaps I was blessed by having some of my former Officers being really good guys and being prior enlisted.  I agree that there are some prior enlisted guys that were complete tools, in fact I worked for one that could go from cold stop to the overspeed trip in 0.2 secs flat.  Maybe there is a magical window that enlisted guys can go to officer without turning into tyrants and be really good Officers.  Somewhere between fresh out of the pipeline and putting on Khaki for Chief.  I don't know. 

[rumrunner]

I usually found LDO and warrant officers to be better to deal with than most of what we got from Annapolis, ROTC, and OCS.  But there were always exceptions.  The best watch officer I ever knew was ROTC, and he really was a great officer and person.  He treated us blue shirts great and we would have licked the deck plates clean for him if he had ever asked.  I saw an EMC go from standing watch as PPWS one day to LDO ensign the next, and he immediately turned into an omni-prick.  He went to NRRO and stayed with the Nimitz in the yards and gave us hell.  Easy to do when you know where to look for the problems.

I am really upset to read of standards being lowered to maintain headcount.  It used to be a sometimes daily challenge to keep your nuc NEC.  From what I read it isn't so anymore.

[Wirebiter]

I am really upset to read of standards being lowered to maintain headcount.  It used to be a sometimes daily challenge to keep your nuc NEC.  From what I read it isn't so anymore.

OH! it still is quite the challenge to keep your N.E.C.  I got most of my gray hairs from standing EWS with over-instruction watches for the newly reported baby-nukes.     All I have to say is -ammonia adds on a S8G plant......yeah....nuff said.

[JustinHEMI05]

From my experiance most of the worst officers I worked for where prior enlisted nukes. I personnaly think we need less of them, far too many LDO types cannot seperate themselves from their former roles as Cheifs. Plus in the worst cases having a prior MM (or worse ELT) run RM or M div these officers have not been enlisted for many years, yet some of them think they know more about the equipment than the enlisted who try to keep it running every day.

I tend to agree with you. For the most part in my career, with the exception of a few notable Mustang's (some here), the prior enlisted officers were definitely more difficult to deal with for exactly the reasons you said. Primarily, the not being able to stay out of their prior enlisted role. But I am afraid that this type of experience is very personalized, just like what types of COs you had or LPOs you had, etc. There will be a wide variety of experiences here and they will all be opposites. To that end, I don't think filling the ranks with more or reducing the number of Mustangs have anything to do with or will help/solve any problems. I mean, we could just say "Lets stop allowing bad apples to be in charge." Its just not that simple.


Justin

[DSO]

From my experiance most of the worst officers I worked for where prior enlisted nukes. I personnaly think we need less of them, far too many LDO types cannot seperate themselves from their former roles as Cheifs. Plus in the worst cases having a prior MM (or worse ELT) run RM or M div these officers have not been enlisted for many years, yet some of them think they know more about the equipment than the enlisted who try to keep it running every day.

03-383--Thats exactly what I have experienced---it seems that regular officers were commissioned because they had Bachelors degrees --not because they were gungho diggit buttkissers and made LDO (this is a general staemnet and wasn't meant for 100% of the LDO's) ---in alot of cases by stepping on other people. I had a lot more junior officers that I got along with than senior enlisted or mustangs---and respected them more. A lot of LDO's need some people skills---of course they are big shots in the military and that isn't required of them

[Preciousblue1965]

Ok well I guess the few I knew that were really good guys are exceptions then.  Is there any other way we could improve upon the chaos that is NNPP.

[arduousartifice]

First, on prior enlisted becoming officers, the worst Eng I've had was once a SPU in Idaho, the best Eng I've had is a ringknocker, but my favorite EOOW was an ex-electrician, my second favorite academy.  It's a crap shoot(repeat idea).  One idea though, put more fleet people into STA (I think preciousblue is right about post pipeline, but prior to khaki).  The fleet guys I've seen who go through there have been above the average for ossifers, while the ones that never went to the fleet, just pipeline to STA or equivalent, sucked.  I know the fleet's manning issues are severe and losing more from the fleet would hurt, but it should be offset a bit by taking less from the pipeline. Maybe when the retention issue is fixed (I make myself laugh sometimes) the navy could try it.  As for LDOs, no one but salty, diggity sea dogs are going to go there. 

Second, I know this is a little off the beaten thread, but, I had an idea to improve a small aspect of the program.  I find training on fast attacks (at least mine) to be worthless, completely and totally worthless, except for a naptime during the day.  The entire training program is like the naked emperor; though it's an area, that while it can never replace operating, a lot more could be gained from a requirement that won't go away.

I figure that on fast attacks, for most underways some nukes get augmented.  The requirement is, I believe, 75% of the augment is spent in school or on leave.  The rest of the time they accomplish nothing worthwhile, and depending on luck, may or may not get f'd in the a** by some retard at squadron.  So why not have the augmented nukes develop the training program (powerpoints, tests, goals, the whole deal)?  Plus, they might be able to get training focused more on theory and integrated plant ops, and less on endless repetition of procedures.  Maybe even teach us ETs a bit about valves and some MMs a bit of electrical magic.

The thing would be quota based, as in a stupid nuke can make x amount of stuff of good quality working from say 8 to 2, so unless you're really dumb, you should be able to work from 8 to noon, produce better quality and beat the flag on Fridays, if you come in at all.  The key would be to emphasize that since augment is meant to be time for relaxing, that the requirement must take that into consideration.  You could make the senior nuke on augment responsible for the whole group, so there's someone for the COC blame if the requirements are not met (read motivate his fellows and help with the work).  For the most part, I don't think anyone would lose their mind if they weren't cleaning up subbase.  And it would help prevent loss of knowledge/proficiency(a little) that happens from a long augment.  Plus, eventually, the only thing that would have to be done would be to update for shipalts/revs/acns. 

I imagine that if something like this happened it would be gayed up somewhere along the line and end up screwing people, but it could work in theory.  Please tell me how it won't work in practice.  I have some ideas on how it could be made to epic fail, but I don't think of everything.

[93-383]

Second, I know this is a little off the beaten thread, but, I had an idea to improve a small aspect of the program.  I find training on fast attacks (at least mine) to be worthless, completely and totally worthless, except for a naptime during the day.  The entire training program is like the naked emperor; though it's an area, that while it can never replace operating, a lot more could be gained from a requirement that won't go away.

I think you have hit on another problem. I have never done SSN training but CVN training and shore command training (can't speak for proto) is nearly worthless. On sea commands we tend to only train on topics that are expected to be MMT/ORSE related. I realize that MMT/ORSE take from the training department question bank to creat the tests, but I also know that the questions placed in that bank are thoes that "we" beleive that ORSE wants to see. Theory bolth cross rate and inrate is not a major training topic and I belive that theory leads to more understanding of the complex systems we work with rather than memorization of setpoints, schematics, ect. I'm not trying to say that the setpoints and the other items are not important but I belive it is far easier to understand what a system is when you understand how it works first, this is how we train people in the pipline theory first then details. The problem is once we leave proto the theory training stops (for the most part).

[LaFeet]

 I dont know what has happened, but when I was in we always Cross trained. Especially at the EWS  / EOOW level.  I can recall giving electronic circuit design training to mao moas and smags as well as tricians.  And I sat through, and absobred, the training that they provided.

This occurred on both my Fast Attack Tuff commands as well as the Cream Puff Boomers. 

I am truly happy that I am no longer required to serve (my 30 has reached its tally) as I am somewhat afraid of what I might expect my Twidgets to know compared to what the standard appears to be today.

Thanks for those of you serving and good luck -  sounds like you folks need it

[PapaBear765]

Someone earlier said that NNPP would be better off doing training like the commercial world.  Does anyone in the industry have some specific differences that would be an improvement?  I'm never one to keep my mouth shut for long, so I from time to time write letters directly to members of the COC.  Nothing ever comes from it; I'm always ignored.  But at least I can say that I didn't sit by quietly while things suck.

So if someone can give me some fodder for my next letter, I'd appreciate it.

569 days left...

[Preciousblue1965]

Best of luck in your endevors PB.  I really hope that you are able to accomplish something. 

Trust in the Force.  Let it flow through you.  Beware of the Dark side.

[PapaBear765]

This one is appropriate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJmm3yt_C2A

[Loffy Muffin]

The issue is solving a problem that requires a different approach.  Trying to attract high quality applicants requires many things the Navy just can't offer or guarantee:  money, responsibility, recognition, living conditions, travel.  The navy can't offer much of this in reality but can make up for it by selling an illusion, which is the next best thing or even better in some circumstances. 
No, to solve the "problem" it's not with personnel itself but with the department of defense and our military doctrine.  The military budget should be cut in half in the next four years and then cut in half again.  At least.  Fast attack subs should be cut to 3 per coast.  Two nuke carriers max per coast.  Bring back the diesel submarines which are an effective weapon, cost effective, and much easier to staff. 
The reduction of the military will serve to stop by default the 100 year (unconstitutional) imperial expansion which is on course to guarantee the collapse of the US economic system which can no longer support this insane infrastructure.  It is by the way, dept of defense, not the department of nation building/military complex/food hander outer/government overthrower/presidential photo op-er. The size of the military provides an oh too easy "solution" to problems that don't require military solutions or as a way for a sitting president to distract the populous from the countries issues by creating needless wars and spreading fears.  The Romans did this and called it "bread and circuses".  We call it government hand outs and freedom wars.
The current state of the government and the military does not guarantee our liberty but in fact puts our liberties more at risk then ever before since the current size is not sustainable.  The government should be slashed by 70% minimum. 
The military (and government) is really only an enabler to tax my income and transfer it to the military complex (and other blood sucking lobbiest).  It does not protect my freedoms, it only makes my freedoms more tenuous.  That it the paradox mystery.  Solved.

Follow the white rabbit.