Rent a tech Union debate

[biloxoi blues]

JJ you will never become a high paying union officer if you keep on  kissing up to companies' management like that.  I like it better when you stand your ground even though Im not much for union while being on the road.

[klsas]

Alphadude, you are correct, a lot of the problems with business are in management, however a union has to share part of the blame. The mindset of the national union orgs. seems to be that the workers control the company, not the risk takers that started the business in the first place. The common thread of all unions is that they are structured the same way and eventually those near the top have the power and greed and the people actually paying the dues are forgotten or just pawns in some game. This is similar to politicians, all buddy-buddy until they start controlling the purse strings and the power to create stupid laws. Then the voters are forgotten until the next election.

Sloglo, I don't know of any Toyota, Nissan or Honda plants that use union labor. At least not in the south. Where it snows could be different. Not trying to argue, just surprised at the comment.

Alphadude did hit a point. Although the AMA is an organization, they do provide or help provide certified training. It is similar to ANS or HPS. It appears the one of the biggest issues in all of this is training. Since the ANS and HPS don't want the likes of HP's, deconners, etc, why not start an organization with dues paying members. We have a lot of smart people in this business and I'm sure you could find a few willing to help start an organization with membership drives, setting up a ongoing training program that the plants and others would accept, setting up an accounting system, etc., etc. If you don't want to become a member, you don't participate in the program unlike a union where those that don't pay dues still enjoy the benefits as well (in right ot work states). Doesn't seem fair does it?

Keith

[Shawnee Man]

Some food for thought. These numbers are close but not exact.

1990 HP Tech Pay

Positive:
1)   Three outages a year in 1990.
2)   Average of 70 days per outage.
3)   Per Diem $50 per day in 1990 => $10,500.
4)   Per Diem for a full week if you completed 40 hrs for the week.
5)   $13.50 per hour at 72 hours per week => $1188 gross x 30 weeks per year = $35,640 gross less taxes around $24,948.
6)   Average of $300 travel in and $300 travel out of job = $1800 per year.
7)   Total = $37,248.

Negative:
1)   Free individual insurance and family insurance was $50 per week => $1500 while working.
2)   Family insurance went up to approximately $300 per month between spring and fall outages => $1650 out of pocket.
3)   Total = $3,150.

Net Take Home for Year: $34,098

2007 HP Tech Pay

Positive:
1)   Five outages a year in 2007.
2)   Average of 30 days per outage.
3)   Per Diem $100 per day in 2007 => $15,000.
4)   $23.50 per hour at 72 hours per week => $2068 gross x 21 weeks per year = $43,428 gross less taxes around $30,400.
5)   Average of $250 travel in and $250 travel out of job = $2500 per year.
6)   Total = $47,900.

Negative:
1)   Family insurance is $125 per week => $2625 while working.
2)   Family insurance went up to approximately $700 per month between spring and fall outages => $5,250 out of pocket.
3)   Lose Per Diem for final two days after layoff => at end of each season => $400.
4)   Total = $8,275.

Net Take Home for Year: $39,625.

*Leave out bonus money, hopefully both is relative for each era.
**Both eras had training weeks, so those were left out for ease of calculation.
***Unemployment left out as well; hopefully both are relative for each era.
****Of course who is going to pay $700 per month? Either you have no insurance or you get a policy that costs at least $500 per month on your own.
*****If you are fortunate enough you can get an extra outage (another 30 days).

I did this quick calculation. Please someone check the math or method of calculation. Thanks

[jjordan]

RadGhost,
You are right on the money, about the money. You took them to 102, i think most need remeadiated with 101! A good statistician can make the numbers ay what he wants them to say. Hell on the travel pay even if it's not capped( an awfull lot are) msot techs figure I got $100.00 and only spent $60.00 hey I made money. I get paid the federal max and I get paid my hourly rate when I'm driving. Thats what everyone should get. Like RadGohst said, it's not just the gas. Quit with the comparisons. You have a uniquie situation. Very limited number of techs. It takes 3-5 years to grow a Sr HP, that's if they work steady, and they won't. You can't move the plants overseas. The utilities can go broke, and someone else will buy them up, the consumer will ultimately pay your wages. If they want and need electric, they pay the price, kind of like OPEC and oil, only better! RadGhost you said it all.
Thanks,
JJ

[jjordan]

Biloxi! Kissing Up? They want my head on a stake right now. Killing would be tooo kind!
I always stand my ground and speak my mind, and also pay the price!
JJ

[jjordan]

shawneeman,
Interesting breakout, not too far off, good ballpark figures. My best year ever for Bartlett was $50,000.00 and I worked real steady up until 98 (Thanks Eric) One real big thing you left out though was to adjust for inflation, even though Greespan said there wasn't much! Over 17 years I'll bet the cost of living has almost doubled! Anyone have the stats on that?
JJ

[RAD-GHOST]

JJ, I don't have the official government statistics on inflation, but I do know this: 17 years ago vs, today!

That 59 cent loaf of bread cost $2.00 today!

59 cent pack of smokes is between $4.00 - $8.00!

79 cent gallon of gas now averages $2.12!

99 cent gallon of milk is now $4.00!

15 cent pound of chicken wings cost $1.25 today!

99 cent Mc Donald lunch is now about $5.00!  Remember that old gingle, Change back from your Buck?

I have yet to figure out, what national gross product they use to gauge inflation.  Obviously nothing the average consumer uses!  I do know how they gauge the unemployment rate!  If your not eligable for a check, than your not unemployed!

biloxoi blues, check this one out, McNamara-O'Hara Service Contract Act of 1965 (SCA)! The World of DOE!

RG

[klsas]

The things we all buy have gone on up on average 7 - 8% per year over the last 17 years. I agree with RG's numbers. If you go to the Bureau of labor stats however, that loaf of bread only costs .90 today. I guess bread is cheaper in DC. They have a calculator that shows what purchase power you have today. If you made made $35K in 1990, it supposedly has the same buying power of $54K today. Although the gov explains how they come up with these numbers, I believe it is like Navy Nuke School - PFM.

Keith

[darkmatter]

The things we all buy have gone on up on average 7 - 8% per year over the last 17 years. I agree with RG's numbers. If you go to the Bureau of labor stats however, that loaf of bread only costs .90 today. I guess bread is cheaper in DC. They have a calculator that shows what purchase power you have today. If you made made $35K in 1990, it supposedly has the same buying power of $54K today. Although the gov explains how they come up with these numbers, I believe it is like Navy Nuke School - PFM.

Keith

80K nowadays doesn't buy what 20K did in 1979. A Sr Rent-a-Tech working 8 months in 1979 made 21K (me) and took the remaining 4 months off in good shape. I remember a lot of my co-workers like myself being married single wage families. Looking at the Rent-a-Tech pool now shows a demographic shift-----not to the better.
A Union might be a good idea, but the IBEW left a bad taste in my mouth from previous interactions with the #@%&+*&^%$#@@.

[jjordan]

darkmatter, if we're trying to tell the average American that we can't make it on $80K in 8 months time plus maximum unemployment for the other four months of the year, and that's why we need union representation, I think that might be a hard sell,......

I don't think there are many contract HP's in this catagory. If Theyre making 80K they aren't off 4 months. When I retired my cardboard boxes, there were some that were struggling to keep their UC paying the maximum rate. now they were working and all. But the way that all of the different laws were with when quarters stopped and started, high quarters, total credit weeks, ect. You had to start paying attention. It's not automatic anymore. really, how many contractors just make 80K, not counting per diem or any expense money? Like RadGhost has told you, exppense money isn't wages!
JJ

[darkmatter]

darkmatter, if we're trying to tell the average American that we can't make it on $80K in 8 months time plus maximum unemployment for the other four months of the year, and that's why we need union representation, I think that might be a hard sell,......

Marssim, think a minute. I am no longer a contractor Rent-a-Tech (sigh,,I miss those 3-4 months a year off hunting, fishing, and gardening.) I am not in a Union, the 80K only comes with lots & lots of OT and little time off since I'm paying for schooling for my kids to pursue good careers of their choice, not nuclear. I'm not trying to sell anything, just stating the facts as I see em. I do miss the old carefree migrant days of money in my pocket and decisions concerning where shall I hunt this year.

[biloxoi blues]

Eric,
It's always good to here your perspective! You've always been top dog for me. .  . Eric , I hate it for you, because your kind of caught in the middle, but it's not really a bad thing.   Eric I think you're the best, save me a slot, I'm probably gonna need it!
JJ

Some of the quotes that I was referring too.  I think that might be considered kissing up. j/k          Thanks Rad Ghost for referring me to the 1965 McNamara-Ohara  service.act.  And thanks everyone for making us feel a little bit older showing the good ole days prices.  Hey but working for Bartlett is priceless.  JJ, thats how I kiss up. j/K

[Tina]

Alphadude did hit a point. Although the AMA is an organization, they do provide or help provide certified training. It is similar to ANS or HPS. It appears the one of the biggest issues in all of this is training. Since the ANS and HPS don't want the likes of HP's, deconners, etc, why not start an organization with dues paying members. We have a lot of smart people in this business and I'm sure you could find a few willing to help start an organization with membership drives, setting up a ongoing training program that the plants and others would accept, setting up an accounting system, etc., etc. If you don't want to become a member, you don't participate in the program unlike a union where those that don't pay dues still enjoy the benefits as well (in right ot work states). Doesn't seem fair does it?

Keith

See I believe this is the way to go and I think that SEC,Inc could probably be the help we'd need to apply this ... but as I was informed not too long ago when looking for some NRRPT training for this year's goal ..."new years resolution you know" that there was'nt enough interest in the training coarse   However, I would be more apt to pay a monthly due to a company for yearly training vs a union for regulation on my future employment opertunities 

[jjordan]

See I believe this is the way to go and I think that SEC,Inc could probably be the help we'd need to apply this ... but as I was informed not too long ago when looking for some NRRPT training for this year's goal ..."new years resolution you know" that there was'nt enough interest in the training coarse   However, I would be more apt to pay a monthly due to a company for yearly training vs a union for regulation on my future employment opertunities 

Tina,
NRRPT is a one time thing, unless you are into pain, and would like to retest even after you pass. Of course if you fail, you've got to subject yourself to it again until you succceed. I gather the course you are reffering to is one of the many offered, to help tutor interested parties on the intrcacies of the NRRPT. They will come to your site for a fee. I guess SEC doesn't have enough interest to make it economically feasable, because they have an upfront fee to come to a site, and then they also charge a fee per person. I wish i had that before I toook it. I had very little study material, and basically took it kind of cold. You can find theese firms and find out when and where they are offering a course. You would be responsible for the fee, travel, meals and lodging. I think most are about a week long, but not positive. If SEC is as wonderfull as you say, they should be more than happy to refund you ther cost of the course, and the NRRPT testing fee upon successful completion of the exam. Bartlett reimburses the test fee if you are working for them when you take & pass the test. If you had a union, this kind of tutoring would become readily available, also some financial assistance to thoose enterprising techs that whish to improve their marketable skills. As far as continuing training, house techs are required to take some anually, but it's not all it's blown up to be. Only thing is it's INPO accredited, and documented. Read some OE's, review some proceedural changes, learn about new developements and instruments at your particular site. !0 hrs of info crammed into a 40 hr week. Big dissapointment to me, I learn way more on my own, but that and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffeee around here.
JJ

[Tina]

See I believe this is the way to go and I think that SEC,Inc could probably be the help we'd need to apply this ... but as I was informed not too long ago when looking for some NRRPT training for this year's goal ..."new years resolution you know" that there was'nt enough interest in the training coarse   However, I would be more apt to pay a monthly due to a company for yearly training vs a union for regulation on my future employment opertunities 

BIG OOPS on my part guys.. I really was refering to SES, Inc.  so sorry for the error ... 
However, if we had it they way klsas put it then some of those expenses would be covered ...

Alphadude did hit a point. Although the AMA is an organization, they do provide or help provide certified training. It is similar to ANS or HPS. It appears the one of the biggest issues in all of this is training. Since the ANS and HPS don't want the likes of HP's, deconners, etc, why not start an organization with dues paying members. We have a lot of smart people in this business and I'm sure you could find a few willing to help start an organization with membership drives, setting up a ongoing training program that the plants and others would accept, setting up an accounting system, etc., etc. If you don't want to become a member, you don't participate in the program unlike a union where those that don't pay dues still enjoy the benefits as well (in right ot work states). Doesn't seem fair does it?

Keith

[SloGlo]

Sloglo, I don't know of any Toyota, Nissan or Honda plants that use union labor. At least not in the south. Where it snows could be different. Not trying to argue, just surprised at the comment.

just off the googling...


    On January 17, Toyota issued a press release reporting that "1,558,828 vehicles and 1,295,227 engines" were produced in 2005 at its North American plants, adding that "Both figures represent new record production levels for Toyota, which began North American production in 1985."

     Of Toyota's North American manufacturing, roughly 79 percent of vehicles and 70 percent of engines were assembled in non-right-work states such as California, Indiana, Kentucky and West Virginia. The rest of the vehicles were assembled in Canada or Mexico. Toyota's plant in Alabama, a right-to-work state, produces just 13 percent of Toyota's engines. American Honda Motor Company maintains engine and vehicle assembly plants in Ohio and emissions testing facilities in Michigan and Colorado. All three of those states are non-right-to-work states, according to the National Right to Work Foundation, which defines a right-to-work law as one that "secures the right of employees to decide for themselves whether or not to join or financially support a union."

     According to the January 17 release, Toyota is expanding operations at plants in both union and non-union states in 2006, adding 150 new jobs in West Virginia for transmission gear production and a total of 800 workers for an expanded engine plant in Alabama.


'cause eye dawn't want ya two be surprised.

[SloGlo]

Tina,
You can find theese firms and find out when and where they are offering a course. You would be responsible for the fee, travel, meals and lodging. I think most are about a week long, but not positive. 

most of the training companies i have looked at in the past had a schooling time frame of ~1 week and most were immediately prior to the testing.  most of them were common in price, ~$1 - 1.5k, not including room and board.  the test is something like $250.  and the test will certify that the possessor of the certificate is a person competent in radiation protection technology.

[klsas]

Sloglo,

It is true that Toyota builds in union states as well as non-union, however Toyota does not have any labor union contracts in place (from Toyota's financial records, various financial research sites, several investment firms, financial magazines, etc). The Google search only told you that they built in certain states. Should the employees ever decide to become union in a union state, all employees at those shops would be required to join the union. Just because you build/ open a business in a union state does not make you union. It appears we have strayed from the topic at hand.

Keith

[Shawnee Man]

Some food for thought. These numbers are close but not exact.

1990 HP Tech Pay

Positive:
1)   Three outages a year in 1990.
2)   Average of 70 days per outage.
3)   Per Diem $50 per day in 1990 => $10,500.
4)   Per Diem for a full week if you completed 40 hrs for the week.
5)   $13.50 per hour at 72 hours per week => $1188 gross x 30 weeks per year = $35,640 gross less taxes around $24,948.
6)   Average of $300 travel in and $300 travel out of job = $1800 per year.
7)   Total = $37,248.

Negative:
1)   Free individual insurance and family insurance was $50 per week => $1500 while working.
2)   Family insurance went up to approximately $300 per month between spring and fall outages => $1650 out of pocket.
3)   Total = $3,150.

Net Take Home for Year: $34,098

2007 HP Tech Pay

Positive:
1)   Five outages a year in 2007.
2)   Average of 30 days per outage.
3)   Per Diem $100 per day in 2007 => $15,000.
4)   $23.50 per hour at 72 hours per week => $2068 gross x 21 weeks per year = $43,428 gross less taxes around $30,400.
5)   Average of $250 travel in and $250 travel out of job = $2500 per year.
6)   Total = $47,900.

Negative:
1)   Family insurance is $125 per week => $2625 while working.
2)   Family insurance went up to approximately $700 per month between spring and fall outages => $5,250 out of pocket.
3)   Lose Per Diem for final two days after layoff => at end of each season => $400.
4)   Total = $8,275.

Net Take Home for Year: $39,625.

*Leave out bonus money, hopefully both is relative for each era.
**Both eras had training weeks, so those were left out for ease of calculation.
***Unemployment left out as well; hopefully both are relative for each era.
****Of course who is going to pay $700 per month? Either you have no insurance or you get a policy that costs at least $500 per month on your own.
*****If you are fortunate enough you can get an extra outage (another 30 days).

I did this quick calculation. Please someone check the math or method of calculation. Thanks

In addition I did some more calculations comparing the 1990 work schedule to 2007 work schedule with adjustments for 3% raises. Note that I considered from previous calculation the positive and negative cash flows. See my calculations below:

(30wks)(72 hrs/wk) ($13.50/hr) = ($34,098)


(21wks)(72 hrs/wk) (x) = ($34,098) =>

X = $18.45

With the reduced outage time at 1990 pay standard, to make up for lost hours you would have to boost hourly wage to $18.45.

Now add in inflation for cost of living of 3% per year. Note this is a HP Tech 3.1 Senior. 5 year, 7 year, and NRRPT would be higher hourly rates.

Year   HP Tech Pay
1990   $13.50
1991   $13.91
1992   $14.33
1993   $14.76
1994   $15.20
1995   $15.66
1996   $16.13
1997   $16.61
1998   $17.11
1999   $17.62
2000   $18.15
2001   $18.69
2002   $19.25
2003   $19.83
2004   $20.42
2005   $21.03
2006   $21.66
2007   $22.31

 
For example:

(30wks)(72 hrs/wk) ($22.31/hr) = ($50,454): Commercial HP Tech Work Year 1990

(21wks)(72 hrs/wk) (x) = ($50,454): Commercial HP Tech Work Year 2007

X = $27.30/hr: for a HP Tech 3.1 Senior (Most plants pay an additional $5 per hour completion bonus of current $22.50 non-NRRPT Tech=> $27.50/hr. If adjusted to the reduction of outage time, then the hourly would be $27.30 + $5.00 completion bonus.)

With all bonus money included:

$22.30 for Junior HP
$27.30 for 18.1 Senior HP
$32.30 for 3.1 Senior HP
$33.30 for 5 Year Senior HP
$34.30 for 7 Year Senior HP
$35.30 for NRRPT HP
$37.30 for HP Supervisor
$40.30 for ALARA HP

Remember for those who think this is high; this is without any benefits of a permanent employee.

Comments

[RAD-GHOST]

shawneeman,

Im sure we would all like to see that list of the bonus paying companies and customers, especially the $5.00 per hour ones!  NRRPT, basiclly worthless in the commercial industry, not even recognized as the NEU equivelant at a large number of facilities, nice if your applying for a perm position, but worthless other wise!  Things have probably changed a little bit, but NRRPT use to be at 5 years, or better.  One of the qualifications for NRRPT, use to be a minimum of 5 years experience to test.  Probably changed!  I'd like to see a comparison chart of contract company profits vs. your stat's!

KUDOS, RG       

[Shawnee Man]

The Exelon circuit. Their three in a row bonus, returnee, and incentives comes to about $5.00. All the plants I have worked accept NRRPT (current) instead of NEU and Exelon offers an hourly increase for having it as well. So it works for me. I am sure they will be beating down the door to tell us about their profits too!
Every where a tech goes, the bean counters are cutting every corner. I sure don't see anyone watching our interest. I am no different from the rest. I have a family that I got to support as well. Any walkout would mean serious business financially for all of us. Lets face it, how many of you can negotiate your way to what the industry has done versus our pay since 1990? Sure most of the techs now probably have a devil may care attitude. Live for today, who cares about tomorrow. But tomorrow is here.
The industry is willing to pay for a free ride for new people to go through the LINN School for health physics, but not pay a fair wage to the ones who are keeping them fed. I can't believe the techs out there are that naive that the employers are out for our best interest, grow up and fight for you and your kids' future.

[wlrun3@aol.com]

   ... "NRRPT, basiclly worthless in the commercial industry, not even recognized as the NEU equivelant at a large number of facilities, nice if your applying for a perm position, but worthless other wise!"

   ...three quarters of the plants pay additional wages for nrrpt...
interesting that someone so respected would post the quote...

[jjordan]

NRRPT exempted me from taking the NEU once it got it. Some sites paid $1.00/ hr more to the ones that had it. You had to have 5yrs to test, but gave partial credit for other lifes experiences, like college. I don't think many new 5 yr techs will fare well on this test. Kinda rough, and a lot not dealing with commercial power. Worthless, I don't think so, but that's just me. The college credits you got for $150.00 (when I took it.) was a bargin!
JJ

PS If you can pass NRRPT, the NEU is a cake walk!

[SloGlo]

Sloglo,

It is true that Toyota builds in union states as well as non-union,


It appears we have strayed from the topic at hand.

Keith

"Toyota's Union Wants Wage Hike

Bill Belew  December 19, 2006
Know More: Doing Business in Japan business, demand, employee, federation, global, japan, toyota motors corp., union, wage hike
Toyota Motor Corp.'s labor union is planning to seek a wage hike for the second year in a row.

If Toyota is going to make so much money, it figures that the guys and girls making the cars are going to want their share of it.

Toyota's factories are running at full capacity to keep up with global demand.

The requested wage hike will be $9-18/month per employee.

The Japan Business Federation (Nippon Keidanren) is cautioning againt union demands.

For some reason, they don't think Toyota can spare any of the expected 2.2 trillion ($10 billion) profit it will make this year.

Company's make money....unions put their hands out. Where were the unions back when the company was risking all, and owners were refinancing their houses and going through divorces because wives wouldn't go along with it, and alienating children because they were working long long hours and such?

Every worker should be paid fairly..even receive a bonus when they do extra.

But, if an employer is fair...there is no need for a union....unless you don't mind paying more for your cars. I mind."


all i know is that toyota has union production.  it appears it may be homeland based.  hmmmmm...... kinda makes ya wonder 'iffen it's good enuff for the homeboys, why ain't it good enuff for da americans?'.... huh?  'n to bring dis full circle, most all of the nuclear industry in the western world is unionized.  why are contract hps feeling they must be so different?  why do they cross the country to collect high unemployment but are unwilling to join with the rest of the industry to attain what others have? 

[jjordan]

shawneeman is correct. You need to come together and bargin as one. It needs to happen ASAP while you are in a position of strenght. BTW Linn Tech isn't the only school being fuded by the utilities. Duke has a co-op started. Progress is meeting with scools as we speak. Ge also has a program going.You can do something now, tommorow will be too late. They are going to kick you to the curb first chance they get with younger cheaper labor.
JJ