How would you fix the NNPP

[GLW]

This has probably been said in the past 23 pages but I'll say it anyway...

It was actually answered on Page 1;

The dial has been turned back on The Wayback Machine.

It is now 1980. Hope you enjoy punk rock.

The Navy is considering raising Nuclear Reenlistment Bonus cap from $15,000 to $20,000.

The Bureau of Personnel believes their desired retention rates of 40% first term, 50% second term, and 60% third term will be achieved - which will man all nuclear billets, by rate, in the proper proportion.

The Wayback Machine is now set to 2008.

The Navy does not now, and never has wanted everyone to re-enlist.
They want the truly disgruntled to leave. They want the truly motivated to stay. Plain and simple. Money won't do it. A new poster slogan won't do it. The Navy knows that.

So, dudes... and dudettes...

If you like it - stay in. I appreciate your service.
If you don't like it - do your time and get out. And I'll enjoy working with you.

Notice the positive energy? We make energy.

You can't fix the Navy, it's not broke.

You can enjoy the ride.

[DockeTT]

It was actually answered on Page 1;

Fair enough..  I guess that's not entirely what I meant.  The nuclear program has higher bonuses than any other program in the Navy and it hasn't made much of a difference.  I meant that maybe they should think about increasing regular pay for nukes.  And while they are at it, would it really be so bad to have a pay scale that differed a little bit depending on the job?  Thats how the real world works.

And as far as his statement "The Navy does not now, and never has wanted everyone to re-enlist", thats true.  But they want more to re-enlist than currently do, otherwise the bonus wouldn't be so high.

[drayer54]

This has probably been said in the past 23 pages but I'll say it anyway...

I think it's an easy question to answer that is impossible to fix.  The reason nukes (especially junior ones) get disgruntled and get out is because they work longer hours, do more training, spend more time cleaning, and are held to a higher standard than the rest of the Navy at nearly the same pay  

I don't think this is a problem. If the Navy is retaining ENOUGH people with varying SRB's to fill the E7-E9 and O4 billets... then I don't think you can make this argument. They don't need to pay the first termers more because they already have them locked in to a contract and filled the junior billets (except for the sadpandas, pregos, deserters, etc..). The trick is keeping the RIGHT people to stay in for the senior billets. That's the responsibility of the senior nukes in the department to get them promoted see the light. A navy nuke will make E6 at the end of their first enlistment (plus or minus some, not an invite for folks to brag) and be able to fill the LPO slots. I don't see the problem that requires more pay.

Would a higher SDAP lead to a higher retention rate with lower SRB's? That makes me want to get a textbook out, PM the right people, grab the calculator, and draw a curve, but I think that we would disagree on the right spot.

I would argue that sea-shore rotations, ship rotations, and promotions would be far better carrots on the stick than pay. I don't recall too many nukes being broke. I also don't believe the NNPP is broke.....


DDD

[GLW]

....And while they are at it, would it really be so bad to have a pay scale that differed a little bit depending on the job?....

I thought that was called pro-pay, unless pro-pay no longer exists you're discussion seems to revolve around the compensation provided by pro-pay versus the effort required to receive it,...

......Thats how the real world works......

Not as much as you might think,....

....But they want more to re-enlist than currently do, otherwise the bonus wouldn't be so high...

Until the day a Navy ship or boat cannot meet it's mission commitment because of NNPP manpower shortages or competent operation of the engineering spaces whatever the NNPP does or has done is working.

How well it works will vary depending on your perspective,...

[DockeTT]

GLW and Drayer, I agree with both of you guys.  I guess I wanted to float out the idea that I hear complained about the most that is actually fixable.  Some of the other ideas you guys gave are definitely things I hear people gripe about.  Sea / shore rotations and the like aren't really easy to fix because of the downsizing of the Navy and how many people get out of the program already.  

And pro pay is still being given to nukes.  But it's one thing you still constantly hear people complaining about.  

And while it's true that the NNPP will go on with shortages, bad attitudes, etc, this post must exist for a reason.  The Navy has definitely shown that it is set in it's ways as far as how the program is run, so if you want happier sailors change the easy thing to change (pay) that doesn't have any effect on the program is what I was thinking.

My personal perspective is that the program chases away a lot of the best and thats a shame because a great chief can make all the difference in the world when it comes to being able to handle a crappy workload, more than pay and other changes. 

Maybe they should change the way Nuke chiefs are selected so that it's a more personal and involved process...??

[Starkist]

I thought that was called pro-pay, unless pro-pay no longer exists you're discussion seems to revolve around the compensation provided by pro-pay versus the effort required to receive it,...

Not as much as you might think,....

Until the day a Navy ship or boat cannot meet it's mission commitment because of NNPP manpower shortages or competent operation of the engineering spaces whatever the NNPP does or has done is working.

How well it works will vary depending on your perspective,...

Pro-pay hasnt gone up in 30 years.  Others specialty pays, like flight deck, divers, foreign language experts get more "pro pay" then nukes do.

Also, if they don't have the man power, they will just shorten the watch rotation and duty sections. 5-10's and 3 section duty on a carrier...

The only REAL benefit of being that short on people is being up for e6 before your 4 year point.

how would I fix it? Raise pro pay CONSIDERABLY, make it relatively easy for those 16 year crusty gold firsts to make warrant officer in their field, bring back the attrition rate (i.e. start with more sailors, or prescreen better!), and fatigue rules on sailors on deployment.

[GLW]

...And pro pay is still being given to nukes.  But it's one thing you still constantly hear people complaining about....  

Ahaaaa!

But see?!? You already said it all in an earlier post,...

Fair enough..  I guess that's not entirely what I meant.  The nuclear program has higher bonuses than any other program in the Navy and it hasn't made much of a difference.  I meant that maybe they should think about increasing regular pay for nukes.  And while they are at it, would it really be so bad to have a pay scale that differed a little bit depending on the job?  Thats how the real world works.

And as far as his statement "The Navy does not now, and never has wanted everyone to re-enlist", thats true.  But they want more to re-enlist than currently do, otherwise the bonus wouldn't be so high.

It would seem you do have a pay scale that differs a little bit,....

Careful what you ask for, you just might get it,....

[DockeTT]

Haha, now your just running around in circles.  As far as the pay issue goes, Starkist is right, propay exists, but it exists for other jobs as well.  And in higher dollar amounts than for nuke.  What I was originally trying to say is that maybe if you increased nuke pro pay a bit, you'd end up with happier nukes without having to attempt to make changes to a program that master chief's will never approve of.

We can do the pro pay dance all day, but you know what I'm getting at.   

[ToadSuck]

Fair enough..  I guess that's not entirely what I meant.  The nuclear program has higher bonuses than any other program in the Navy and it hasn't made much of a difference.  I meant that maybe they should think about increasing regular pay for nukes.  And while they are at it, would it really be so bad to have a pay scale that differed a little bit depending on the job?  Thats how the real world works.

And as far as his statement "The Navy does not now, and never has wanted everyone to re-enlist", thats true.  But they want more to re-enlist than currently do, otherwise the bonus wouldn't be so high.

We do not have the biggest bonus...SEALs do.

I definitely agree about the pay scale. I don't think it is smart that we pay an E-6 cook/storekeeper/refueler/etc. 70k-85k depending on BAH when on the outside they would be lucky to get half of that. Then they can retire and get half of base...no where out there would they be able to do that. On the other hand you have nuke getting paid the same thing, but work much harder and longer. Even if you take workload out of the picture, just talent and ability have to be worth more than someone who barely could get a job anyway (criminal records, academics, GED, not so bright). Less than .06% of the population can be a Navy nuke per the standards. Then you have to convince them to be one....make the pay higher (supply and demand).

We have enough to meet the demand you say...raise the standards and the pay. Then we will have to beat off even good candidate and quality will not be an issue.

[GLW]

We do not have the biggest bonus...SEALs do.

I'm assuming that is just an iteration of fact and not a complaint against the status quo,....

[DockeTT]

We do not have the biggest bonus...SEALs do.

I'm assuming that is just an iteration of fact and not a complaint against the status quo,....

I messed up, I meant to say we have the biggest re-enlistment bonuses.  He's right, Seals have an edge on the initial enlistment, $15,000 to $12000.  Last I checked though we were up on the re-enlistment by almost $25,000.

[HeavyD]

Just to add some information based on current facts.

Most recent SRB message:
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/messages/Documents/NAVADMINS/NAV2012/NAV12013.txt

According to that, Nuclear trained personnel have the highest multiples in Zone "A" of anyone on the list, including SEALS (their rating is SO now).  Zone "A" for SO is 2.  For Zone "B", SOs are ahead of both sets of ETs, sub ELTs and surface MMs.  Otherwise, nukes come out ahead, again. 

Zone "C" and Zone "D" (new zone never covered until 2010) for Nukes is now covered by the Enlisted Supervisor Retention Pay
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/messages/Documents/NAVADMINS/NAV2010/NAV10051.txt
In Zone "C", the SOs come out ahead of everyone except sub ETs.  SOs don't get a Zone "D".

As for pro-pay or Special Duty Assignment Pay (SDAP), the most recent NAVADMIN is here:
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/messages/Documents/NAVADMINS/NAV2011/NAV11356.txt

Several (i.e. over 5) years ago, the SDAP program and its values were overhauled.  This most recent NAVADMIN contains the values, as they currently stand.  Nuclear trained operators receive between $150.00/month (non-supervisor at sea) all the way up to $450.00/month (prototype instructor).

As far as the pay making the program better, I disagree.  The standard has moved several times during my career, which recently ended after 20 years.  When I first entered, if you had any kind of involvement with the civil justice system (i.e. DUI, underage drinking, etc.), they showed you the door.  Did it give us a high attrition rate?  Yes.  Did we lose potentially good operators who had yet to grow up enough to keep themselves out of trouble?  Yes.  Was the program better off?  Highly debateable.  We often sent guys (it was only guys back then, so no offense to the female nukes) out of the program that might have benefited from a second chance.  However, with the responsibility of what we are entrusted to maintain on a daily basis, a second chance is often something we can't afford to give.

One example of not so good ideas to reduce attrition was the ridiculous idea of "graduating" School with a 2.5 but needing a 2.8 to continue on to Power School.  This absolute disaster allowed individuals to "shoot the gap", graduate with a rate, miss out on 1 of their 12 month extensions (back then we had a 4 year contract and a pair of 12 month extensions.  1 was activated when you got your 3rd class crow after School, the 2nd when you went to prototype.  I believe they changed that since) and go on to be a conventional MM or EM or ET.

To end my wall of text, I offer this last tidbit.  Numerous complaints in the fleet were about "weak" members of the Chief community.  This is our own fault.  Due to a culture of not wanting to ruin an individuals career or adversely lowering a Reporting Seniors PMA average, evals are not typically written in a truthful manner.  Average sailors receive above average marks, increasing their chances for advancement.  "Good people" are subsequently up for advancement sooner than they should be.  On paper, these sailors look great, which is all the selection board has to look at. 

P.S.  I honestly have no problem with SEALS getting those bonuses, because I NEVER got shot at during my 20 years.  Just saying

[DockeTT]

P.S.  I honestly have no problem with SEALS getting those bonuses, because I NEVER got shot at during my 20 years.  Just saying

I don't think anyone would.  Seals are extremely underpaid as well, and should make more than we do if we really want to be fair.  

I don't think more money will necessarily make the program itself better, but it might improve the morale of the people in the program which in essence is doing the same thing.  The same could be said for all spec war and a few other programs.  I am kind of surprised to see how many people here are opposed to the idea that nukes, seals, etc should be paid more than a boatswains mate for a regular paycheck, throwing out the bonuses.  In my experience in the program, thats one of the easiest fixes to change that would help morale.  Sayings like "Choose your rate, choose your fate" wouldn't exist in nuclear world if nukes were happy they were paid nearly the same as the rates leaving at noon everyday, hence the blow to morale.  A lot of the other gripes I heard about on the ship the most can't be changed because they are too deeply involved with safety or rooted in Navy tradition.  

Seemed like a good idea in my head, back to the drawing board I guess..

[Gamecock]

how would I fix it? Raise pro pay CONSIDERABLY, make it relatively easy for those 16 year crusty gold firsts to make warrant officer in their field, bring back the attrition rate (i.e. start with more sailors, or prescreen better!), and fatigue rules on sailors on deployment.

You do realize that there is probably a reason why someone is a 16 yr First class, right? 

Also, E-7 is required for CWO eligibility.

[Higgs]

If you want a better pay scale as a nuke, get out and go commercial nuke. Then again, that wouldn't fix the NNPP, would it?

[drayer54]

If you want a better pay scale as a nuke, get out and go commercial nuke. Then again, that wouldn't fix the NNPP, would it?

I would argue that the pay scale is just fine. A slight propay bump, maybe... but this is far from the problem..

[Starkist]

You do realize that there is probably a reason why someone is a 16 yr First class, right?  

Also, E-7 is required for CWO eligibility.

Im not going to debate about why a person in the same position for 16 years is useless where he is and most likely knows QUITE a bit about his trade.

I was speaking more for creating a program for nukes for warrant officer ascension. Think of it along the lines of the aviator warrant officer program they created a few years ago.


edit - *note how I said CWO not LDO.

[GLW]

If you want a better pay scale as a nuke, get out and go commercial nuke. Then again, that wouldn't fix the NNPP, would it?

Well it does keep the E-5 and E-6 ranks wide open for rapid promotion and better money for those that are in the USN,....

OMG!!! Have we uncovered a military-industrial complex conspiracy between Navy brass and the utility corporate level management?!?!?!

Perish the thought!!!!!!,...

[Higgs]

I would argue that the pay scale is just fine. A slight propay bump, maybe... but this is far from the problem..

You quoted the wrong guy. I'm not the one that thought there was anything wrong with the pay scale. Merely pointing out to those who do that there are other options.

[Higgs]

You do realize that there is probably a reason why someone is a 16 yr First class, right?  

Also, E-7 is required for CWO eligibility.

I only ever knew one gold chevron first, and he came to my boat to be the LELT when I was still a second class. He was all over the nuclear world..., George Washington class subs, cruisers, enterprise, then LA class subs. I knew why he was a 16 year gold chevron first class when we went to do his primary check chemistry and he says "You guys really do primaries here?"

This was the look on my face;




Anyway, off topic, but yes..., there is a reason they are 16 year firsts and I'd wager it isn't the Navy's fault. He retired at 20 as a first class.

[DockeTT]

I only ever knew one gold chevron first, and he came to my boat to be the LELT when I was still a second class. He was all over the nuclear world..., George Washington class subs, cruisers, enterprise, then LA class subs. I knew why he was a 16 year gold chevron first class when we went to do his primary check chemistry and he says "You guys really do primaries here?"

Anyway, off topic, but yes..., there is a reason they are 16 year firsts and I'd wager it isn't the Navy's fault. He retired at 20 as a first class.

The problem with the advancement system is that for every one of "those" guys, there is another who for whatever reason rubbed a khaki or two the wrong way at some point and in the process made permanent E-6.  I met one of those, smartest nuke I've ever met and extremely hard worker, and a permanent E-6 for whatever reason.

And I don't think anyone here doesn't understand that if you want to make more money, go civilian.  Just a possible fix for morale since the topic of the post is "How would you fix the NNPP".

Maybe a better topic title would have been "What changes would the NNPP actually be willing to make?"  If any of the few answers seem like they'd help the program then there ya go...

[drayer54]

The problem with the advancement system is that for every one of "those" guys, there is another who for whatever reason rubbed a khaki or two the wrong way at some point and in the process made permanent E-6.  I met one of those, smartest nuke I've ever met and extremely hard worker, and a permanent E-6 for whatever reason.

And I don't think anyone here doesn't understand that if you want to make more money, go civilian.  Just a possible fix for morale since the topic of the post is "How would you fix the NNPP".

Maybe a better topic title would have been "What changes would the NNPP actually be willing to make?"  If any of the few answers seem like they'd help the program then there ya go...

I don't think that this individuals problem is indicative of a problem with the system. I also think you get a money balance with SRB's and shore duty that make up for a good bit of the money difference. I don't think the money difference is so big anyways. You can't compare an SRO to an E5, I would compare them to someone who went officer and was making a good chunk of money. An 04 posted his LES in our office once as a "staynavy" thing and it wasn't a poor mans takehome....

[DockeTT]

I don't think that this individuals problem is indicative of a problem with the system. I also think you get a money balance with SRB's and shore duty that make up for a good bit of the money difference. I don't think the money difference is so big anyways. You can't compare an SRO to an E5, I would compare them to someone who went officer and was making a good chunk of money. An 04 posted his LES in our office once as a "staynavy" thing and it wasn't a poor mans takehome....

Very good point...

However, when he's asking about how to fix the NNPP, you have to remember that most of the NNPP are E-5 and E-6's, not O-4's...  Most of those people also get out before they ever really get to the part of the Navy when the pay begins to "catch" up with the civilian side, because they want to be an SRO one day...

[DockeTT]

One final point about money in the NNPP, because I know most people here think it doesn't matter...

The entire topic really doesn't make a ton of sense in the first place....   The NNPP isn't really broken, so it doesn't need fixing.  IMO the only thing broken compared to the civilian side is the morale, and that is only of a portion of that group.  Now we all know that really the only things to change in the program would be the standards by which it's run, the regulations, or the traditions...  And none of that is going to change or can't change..  Which leaves one way "I" can think of to "improve" the program, and that's morale.  Like I stated in the last post, since most of the program is made up of junior sailors, their wallet is one easy way to improve the morale..  And you can't take away sea time or give a ship better manning so.... with improved morale comes a "better" program without having to compromise the standards of the program in any way that they won't anyway.

Do I personally think the Navy nukes are underpaid?  Nope.  But I also viewed the program as more of a paid internship to the civilian world.  You come out, and continue to be paid the same as the Navy, and continue to gain experience, and one day if you do well your an SRO making much more money anyway.

For the guys that love the Navy and the sea, they are paid enough because they do stay in.  But if enough people stayed in, or everyone was happy, or the program was perfect, the topic wouldn't exist in the first place...

[usnsubnuke]

I completely agree with this.  In fact, the CO of my boat had an E-6 call yesterday and pretty much gave them a yfg speech on how they need to be positive leaders..lead the E-5's and below..be happy to be doing what we do, and that lasted an hour and a half. 

I know a bunch of us that would stay in, but I think we're all afraid because there are so many people getting out.  It's a shame the Hartford got stuck in the shipyard for 20 months.  That means needs of the navy take over and we all get extended if we reenlist.  They front loaded everyone at the beginning of the shipyard and haven't sent anyone since then hardly.  My division has gotten 1 new guy in the last 2 years...  After we get back from our deployment coming up here soon, there will be 2 ET's left and 4 EM's.  Everyone else is getting out within a few months of RTP. 

It seems almost unfair to the junior guys to leave the boat like that, even after being there for such a long time, except for the ELT's.  There are 7 of those guys on the boat.  Maybe what I'm trying to say is that they should work on more evenly distributing people through the boats.  That, and more propay would be pretty cool.  Can't complain for the 11.5 multiple on the SRB.