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Willy

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #25 on: Dec 22, 2010, 11:12 »
I think you can train and read to be a leader.  A great leader has natural abilities that cannot be taught.  I have worked for guys who were great leaders and they were able to motivate us to do things that we didn't want to do.  Not only did we do it but we enjoyed doing it.  It's the ability to see what motivates each individual.  It's being able to get people to buy into what you want them to do.  Some people you have to be hard on, other you have to give words of encouragement, and some you just have to surround them with hard working people, and they will follow.  I think books and trainings are useful, but they are over rated.  Natural leaders are always three steps ahead of everyone else and thinking about whom they are going to put in which situation, because they want to put people in a position to be successful.  I do agree what you are doing is great, and thank you for your service. 

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #26 on: Dec 23, 2010, 02:06 »
Great Leaders are Innate leaders. Sorry that's how it goes.

 I agree 100%, however, getting a new perspective on things, if to do nothing else but to affirm your own views, is never a bad thing.

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #27 on: Dec 23, 2010, 09:20 »
When I graduated one of the many BS "Leadership " schools that have been inflicted on me over the last 20 some odd years they gave us this book called It's Your Ship, written by a Naval Officer who had "turned around a shit"

The whole topic is a good debate (it would be better if some people would realize that their opinions do not automatically become facts) but this has got to be a candidate for Freudian Slip of the Year.
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

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I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

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Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #28 on: Dec 23, 2010, 09:24 »
The whole topic is a good debate (it would be better if some people would realize that their opinions do not automatically become facts) but this has got to be a candidate for Freudian Slip of the Year.

I believe he was quoting the said officer on what he was calling a POS junior enlisted sailor or JO.

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #29 on: Dec 23, 2010, 09:29 »
I believe he was quoting the said officer on what he was calling a POS junior enlisted sailor or JO.

If that is the case then the author can add 'Lousy Writer' to his resume, too.
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #30 on: Dec 23, 2010, 09:31 »
If that is the case then the author can add 'Lousy Writer' to his resume, too.

Im merely speculating mike wrote that in context is all :D I read it like you did at first, but it has quotations on it.  Judging from what they are saying about him, I imagine he could be as bad as we think haha.

Offline Neutron Whisperer

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #31 on: Dec 23, 2010, 11:05 »

To use a metaphor, leadership is very much a performance sport; much like reading a skiing book is only a small part of being an exceptional skier, book knowledge is only a small part of effective, authentic leadership.  One learns mostly by doing it, reading and going to classes only to get more ideas.  Moreover, one will learn faster if he or she seeks out development opportunities, mentors, and role models to give ideas of what to do.  Fine tuning comes from critiquing your performance, whether it is from introspection or feedback from others.

deltarho

Very much appreciate everyone's input.  I think deltarho exactly captured my opinion on the usefulness of books and/or classes on leadership.  I simply do not believe that leadership is wholly innate.

And, trying to distinguish between "leadership" and "management" is like to trying to differentiate between "game" and "sport".  Hence, my interchangeable use.
Disclaimer: there is no "tone" to my post.

Offline DDMurray

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #32 on: Dec 24, 2010, 01:19 »
Let me give you my compendiary opinion on the difference between management and leadership.

No one ever brilliantly managed failure.

History is full of great and admired leaders,...who failed.

Grant and Lee.
This simplistic explanation has resonated with me for years:

You lead people, you manage things.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

Fermi2

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #33 on: Dec 24, 2010, 05:21 »
And just remember, Leadership is an innate trait.

Sun Dog

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #34 on: Dec 24, 2010, 05:32 »

No one ever brilliantly managed failure.


Those who cast votes for Bud Black or Ron Gardenhire may disagree.

Offline Neutron Whisperer

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #35 on: Dec 25, 2010, 04:53 »
And just remember, Leadership is an innate trait.

If that were true, then you could never claim to have learned anything from anyone about leadership; you'd just be how you were born.  It's absurd.  Not only have I learned from others how to lead I've also learned how not to lead, but I've learned from others.  Therefore, not wholly innate.
Disclaimer: there is no "tone" to my post.

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #36 on: Dec 26, 2010, 03:02 »
I agree that it is innate. I've learned nothing from others about leadership.

Offline bmoney2223

Re: Leadership
« Reply #37 on: Dec 26, 2010, 08:03 »
Leadership is a topic that has as many definitions as people who have tried to understand it. The most frequently used definition of leadership is an influence relationship between leaders and followers in a given situation who affect real change. Almost everyone here is using the word leadership when they should actually be using management. There are no substantial studies into traits or characteristics that are truly indicitive of leaders. The only trait that is shared by more than 80% of people in CEO or upper managerial roles is height. So if you are 6'0" or taller, you have a common trait with leaders or today's organizations. Leadership is very rare while good management is very frequent. To those that say you are born with leadership... that is bolony. College courses can give you a foundation of what needs to happen for leadership to occur. Leadership can happen from top to bottom or bottom to top and it is not a position. It is a phenomenon. The only way to make leadership happen is to create a relationship based on good influence. The leaders and followers must share a common belief and goal and everyone needs to be onboard with it. Until this happens, you CANNOT have leadership. The military is the #1 worst example of leadership. We are good managers. You can not use coercive force in leadership and leadership must be based on referent powers where the military power is based on how long you have been in the service and not your capabilities as a manager or leader. We have all worked for Master Chiefs who are more concerned with the shininess of the deck than organizational structure and meaning. While obtaining my Masters in Management, I realized how ignorant it was to think of the military as having hundreds and hundreds of great leaders. So you can learn how to be a better leader from life experiences and through education. Asking the civilian nuclear workers question like this will usually result in being put on blast. Usually they are more concerned with telling you to do research on your own or throwing snide comments from every direction. I would recommend completing some type of Masters degree in management and find a job in the non nuclear community. I have several job offers on the table outside of this community and they are far more inviting than the ones offered from the nuke world. The non nukes treasure a masters degree and award positions that you deserve. These guys are stuck on you have to get your foot in the door and work your way up. Look outside nuke world. Hope this helped.

Sun Dog

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #38 on: Dec 26, 2010, 09:24 »

The only trait that is shared by more than 80% of people in CEO or upper managerial roles is height.
 

That is BS.  Well over 80% of all CEO and senior managers are white and have a penis.


College courses can give you a foundation of what needs to happen for leadership to occur.  
 

You can also read a book that explains how to throw a nasty curve ball or slider but that doesn't mean your ever going to be able to do it if you were not born with the natural ability.
« Last Edit: Dec 26, 2010, 09:34 by Sun Dog »

co60slr

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #39 on: Dec 26, 2010, 09:53 »
We have all worked for Master Chiefs who are more concerned with the shininess of the deck than organizational structure and meaning. While obtaining my Masters in Management, I realized how ignorant it was to think of the military as having hundreds and hundreds of great leaders.

So you can learn how to be a better leader from life experiences and through education. Asking the civilian nuclear workers question like this will usually result in being put on blast. Usually they are more concerned with telling you to do research on your own or throwing snide comments from every direction. I would recommend completing some type of Masters degree in management and find a job in the non nuclear community. I have several job offers on the table outside of this community and they are far more inviting than the ones offered from the nuke world. The non nukes treasure a masters degree and award positions that you deserve. These guys are stuck on you have to get your foot in the door and work your way up. Look outside nuke world. Hope this helped.
Why is housekeeping important in a technical organization?  You think senior enlisted/officers "like" cleaning?  What's your solution?   (Hint: it's no different in commercial or any other highly technical organization).   Use your Master's Degree and explain why the NNPP is so screwed up with their housekeeping practices.   

I've met many people like yourself that get a piece of graduate paper and self-proclaim expertise.  I've met several COs/Senior Managers with your Management degree that couldn't lead their way home without an escort.  So, based on this rock-throwing post without you succeeding in any real Leadership position yet, my conclusion today is that you haven't learned anything about management.  Your Master's degree may have landed you the perfect interview and job offer; however, beware...they're expecting results! 

I sincerely wish you luck in your non-nuclear endeavors and hope you'll post your successes in the Navy: Getting Out section.  While I agree there are tremendous non-nuclear opportunities out there, you may find yourself working for a retired Master Chief.   It's a VERY small world out here and while the Navy is far from perfect, I think you're in for some culture shock. 

Again, the three secrets:
1.  Intellect
2.  Energy
3.  Ability to write/speak clearly.

I did NOT list "Master's Degree".  That gets you job interviews...not promotions.

Leadership:  getting people (note:  not necessarily "subordinates") to do things they don't want to do in support of an organizational mission.   Soon you'll be that Master Chief required to motivate your division to do something you don't want to do, but your boss requires it.  I hope you have that day and succeed because only then will you understand any of what I just typed.

Sun Dog

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #40 on: Dec 26, 2010, 10:19 »

80%+ of the world's CEO's and senior managers are not "white",...

I'll get back to you a bit later on the other assertion, I suspect that is wrong too...

wobblies,.....sheeeeeesh,...


Sorry, I am an American who tends to think in American terms, not the global, one market system supported by the current gatekeeper.  I should have been more specific.  I believe that >80% of the Fortune 500 CEO's are white.  In 11/10, there were 12 women CEOs in the Fortune 500.  That is 0.024%.  If you expand the list to the Fortune 1000, the number of female CEOs leaps to a total of 26, or 0.026%.

Face it.  It is a middle aged, white boy's club.

Pyramids
Published: November 2010

Fortune 500 (12 CEOs)
Patricia A. Woertz, Archer Daniels Midland Company (ADM) (#27)
Angela F. Braly, WellPoint, Inc. (#31)
Indra K. Nooyi, PepsiCo, Inc. (#50)
Irene B. Rosenfeld, Kraft Foods Inc. (#53)
Lynn Laverty Elsenhans, Sunoco (#78)
Ellen J. Kullman, DuPont (#86)
Carol M. Meyrowitz, The TJX Companies, Inc. (#119)
Ursula M. Burns, Xerox Corporation (#152)
Andrea Jung, Avon Products, Inc. (#228)
Laura Sen, BJ's Wholesale Club (#232)
Susan M. Ivey, Reynolds American, Inc. (#272)
Carol Bartz, Yahoo! Inc. (#343)

Fortune 501-1000 (14 CEOs)
Ilene Gordon, Corn Products International (#546)
Amy Miles, Regal Entertainment (#660)
Mindy F. Grossman, HSN (#685)
Linda A. Lang, Jack in the Box Inc. (#687)
Janet L. Robinson, The New York Times Company (#733)
Mary Berner, Reader's Digest Association (#738)
Constance H. Lau, Hawaiian Electric Industries, Inc. (#759)
Mary Agnes (Maggie) Wilderotter, Frontier Communications (#794)
Cindy B. Taylor, Oil States International, Inc. (#796)
Catherine Burzik, Kinetic Concepts (#833)
Tamara L. Lundgren, Schnitzer Steel Industries (#863)
Katherine (Kay) L. Krill, AnnTaylor Stores Corporation (#888)
Sara Mathew, Dun & Bradstreet, Inc. (#940)
Patricia Gallup, PC Connection, Inc. (#990)


« Last Edit: Dec 26, 2010, 10:43 by Sun Dog »

Offline Marlin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #41 on: Dec 26, 2010, 10:28 »
There are no substantial studies into traits or characteristics that are truly indicitive of leaders.
  Business majors would agree but I don't think psychology majors would.
To those that say you are born with leadership... that is bolony. College courses can give you a foundation of what needs to happen for leadership to occur.
  Where did leaders come from before colleges? I believe that leaders learn and evolve as much from intuitive intelligence as from formalized "training". In groups of people there are almost always a few who naturally gain respect and trust that is key to leadership. I don't mean to demean institutionalized leadership education, if it did not work there would not be Harvard's, Princetons and military academies.
   Don't get me wrong I agree with %95 of what you say it just seems a little narrow. There have been many leaders from humble beginnings in our history that did not have benefit of advanced education. There are a number of billionaires that have a high school diploma or less, it would be hard not to define them as leaders. Then there are those from academia who will never get it but then we seem to agree on that anyway.

That's just my opinion I could be wrong. D.M.  [coffee]

JustinHEMI05

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #42 on: Dec 26, 2010, 02:40 »
To those that say you are born with leadership... that is bolony. College courses can give you a foundation of what needs to happen for leadership to occur. Leadership can happen from top to bottom or bottom to top and it is not a position. It is a phenomenon. The only way to make leadership happen is to create a relationship based on good influence.

You are wrong. Leadership is a born trait.

That doesn't mean that all CEOs and managers are natural leaders. However, they are in positions that require leadership, so they have to "learn" it from somewhere. That doesn't make them good leaders at the end of the day. Maybe good managers, difference.

« Last Edit: Dec 26, 2010, 02:45 by JustinHEMI »

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #43 on: Dec 26, 2010, 03:10 »
  Business majors would agree but I don't think psychology majors would.    Where did leaders come from before colleges? I believe that leaders learn and evolve as much from intuitive intelligence as from formalized "training". In groups of people there are almost always a few who naturally gain respect and trust that is key to leadership. I don't mean to demean institutionalized leadership education, if it did not work there would not be Harvard's, Princetons and military academies.
   Don't get me wrong I agree with %95 of what you say it just seems a little narrow. There have been many leaders from humble beginnings in our history that did not have benefit of advanced education. There are a number of billionaires that have a high school diploma or less, it would be hard not to define them as leaders. Then there are those from academia who will never get it but then we seem to agree on that anyway.

That's just my opinion I could be wrong. D.M.  [coffee]


I dont consider bill gates ability to put together a circuit board a certain way to be leadership, nor do I do I equivocate google's inventor a great leader. Money and financial success does not mean they are good leaders.


Lets say Basketball is a learned trait. EVERYONE can get good if they practice. Not everyone will be michael jordan....  theres some god given innate ability. Look at his golfing -.- lol

Offline HydroDave63

Re: Leadership
« Reply #44 on: Dec 26, 2010, 03:16 »
So, if I was really really reeeeally lucky I could go to college on one of those "Rhodes Scholarships". There, I could learn...

1. College courses can give you a foundation of what needs to happen for leadership to occur.

2.  The leaders and followers must share a common belief and goal and everyone needs to be onboard with it.

and what were Cecil Rhodes (very successful leader, one of the world's richest and most influential men of all time) common beliefs?

We must find new lands from which we can easily obtain raw materials and at the same time exploit the cheap slave labor that is available from the natives of the colonies. The colonies would also provide a dumping ground for the surplus goods produced in our factories.

Cecil Rhodes

That is BS.  Well over 80% of all CEO and senior managers are white and have a penis.

Rhodes would agree...

Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first prize in the lottery of life.

Cecil Rhodes

Ok, but certainly influential leaders have changed since then, right?


Whatever the price of the Chinese Revolution, it has obviously succeeded not only in producing more efficient and dedicated administration, but also in fostering high morale and community of purpose. The social experiment in China under Chairman Mao's leadership is one of the most important and successful in human history
.– David Rockefeller

Well, so much for a pay raise and more PTO days. At least I get a good health care plan with free vaccines, right?



Remember, it's all about loving your leadership!



Now, taking a look at all those experienced world leaders, I think I found their common relative!


Offline Marlin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #45 on: Dec 26, 2010, 03:35 »
I dont consider bill gates ability to put together a circuit board a certain way to be leadership, nor do I do I equivocate google's inventor a great leader. Money and financial success does not mean they are good leaders.

   Lots of people put together circuit boards these men put together teams that made their companies successful and their subordinates very wealthy. Your example does not pass the logic test or the "Duh check". These men excelled in team building, vision, and expertise.


P.S. Bill Gates made his money through the licensing of software not hardware.
« Last Edit: Dec 26, 2010, 03:38 by Marlin »

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #46 on: Dec 26, 2010, 03:51 »
  Lots of people put together circuit boards these men put together teams that made their companies successful and their subordinates very wealthy. Your example does not pass the logic test or the "Duh check". These men excelled in team building, vision, and expertise.


P.S. Bill Gates made his money through the licensing of software not hardware.

Quite simply, bill gates exploited an unused market and made lots of money. They grew exponentially and he became the wealthiest man on the planet. Is he a leader? Maybe, but not because he has lots of money. Intelligence to hire smart people and good leaders does not make yourself a good leader. It means you are smart enough to know yourself.

Offline Marlin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #47 on: Dec 26, 2010, 04:11 »
Quite simply, bill gates exploited an unused market and made lots of money. They grew exponentially and he became the wealthiest man on the planet. Is he a leader? Maybe, but not because he has lots of money. Intelligence to hire smart people and good leaders does not make yourself a good leader. It means you are smart enough to know yourself.

   Bill gates went against the the conventional wisdom of the day which showed he had vision and yes he hired the best he could what good leader would not? He set up a new working environment that has been copied many times since. He understood his coworkers and provided what they needed to succeed for themselves and his company. He is now leading other billionaires in unprecedented philanthropy I don't know about you but somewhere in there is an innate leadership that did not come out of a book.

Offline HydroDave63

Re: Leadership
« Reply #48 on: Dec 26, 2010, 05:47 »
Billions have paid the price over and over for his business philosophy, and Gates is trying, as if the very hounds of hell were at his heels, to buy his way into Heaven.

Based on the attached Bilderberg/CFR videos, I'm inclined to agree ;)

Offline Marlin

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Re: Leadership
« Reply #49 on: Dec 26, 2010, 05:57 »
Oh please Marlin, Gates was in college just long enough to read Vance Packard and decide that GM's business model was a better money maker than VW's.

Billions have paid the price over and over for his business philosophy, and Gates is trying, as if the very hounds of hell were at his heels, to buy his way into Heaven.

Manager - yes.

Leader - not so much.

Can't say I see the correlation between motivational sales and licensing of software.  ???



History is full of extremely wealthy people buying a better legacy than a Scrooge without the Christmas eve conversion.  [2cents]



Maybe the visualization of an "Erkel" as a leader is a problem.   [devious] [whistle]

 


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