Leadership

[Neutron Whisperer]

Trying to think of the best way to word this question... Been reading a lot of books from the Management/Leadership shelf at the bookstore over the last couple years.  Some of the ones I've found to be the most useful:

"The Carrot Principle"
"The No Asshole Rule"
"High Output Management" with follow-up reading on "constructive confrontation"
"Failing Forward"
"The No Complaining Rule"
"101 Tough Conversations to have with Employees"

I've been the LPO on my last boat, at NPTU, and on my current boat.  I've received a NAM for what I accomplished at NPTU while being the LPO and was made the Sailor of the Quarter last month (was told that I would have been Sailor of the Year if I had been on board for longer).  I'm thinking next year is my year to make Chief.

My question is if all of the books I've read, and will read, are intangible? (Nothing that can be put in a resume but would pay off later while actually in the workplace)  And if my Navy accolades in leadership will simply be a single resume bullet?  In other words, is there some sort of certificate in leadership or management?  Is what I'm driving at a degree in human resources?

Any help would be appreciated.

[Cycoticpenguin]

This is one the most scrutinized things on the planet. Leadership isn't something you can read in a book, nor is it something that can be taught directly. It comes down to your perception of what is good and what is poor. Go up to any chief and say "Hey, are you a good leader?" 100% will answer "Yes". We all know that is not the case , at least not 100% of the time. And perhaps that is due to our perception of what a good leader actually is? Is a good leader a hard ass? Is it a hugger? Is it someone who is fair but tough? a lot of people also seem to write off discipline and accountability to "hes being mean to me", its hard to convey that.  You have more experience then I do, but Im just trying to give you a different point of view as well.

Im going to assume you are on your 12-14 year mark. A lot of you senior first classes get so caught up in making chief and kissing butt, you fail to understand what you are actually supposed to be doing. Its like those sr chiefs that are "out for blood". One guy came on my boat expecting to make chief right away. He was super diggety, had us working CRAZY hours, and everything was underproductive because he wanted to "look good" instead of taking care of his people. After he broke down a bit (took a little over a year) he relaxed, started saying "hey these are my people and this is my plant" and started acting like what I would want in a chief. We were much more motivated to work, and when it came down to it, we got more accomplished in less time.  He put on khaki this year, and I couldnt be happier for him.   

My humble two cents is given   Books are good, but experience is better of course.  some of those book titles look interesting, so Ill have a gander at them, thanks.

[JustinHEMI05]

I applaud your drive and desire to be a better leader. For all I know, you are a good leader, and I assume you are. In my experience though, the military infrequently produces real leaders, and by that I mean leaders that can get something done without the "or else" or the "because I out rank you" behind them. To that end, I recommend you take a hard look at yourself and your leadership style and ensure you don't fall into one of those 2 paradigms before getting into the civilian world, where those fail miserably. Reading the books you mentioned will help recognize the leader that is in you... or not in you... as the case may be. Real leaders are born, not trained or found in a book, IMO. Although the military produces the type of leaders it needs, it often doesn't translate well outside of the military. Again, that is based off my 9 years in the Navy and 3 years in commercial nuclear power. I could be way wrong.

That said, unfortunately, yes, your leadership experience will be boiled down to a bullet on your resume. What you have done to better prepare yourself as a leader won't even get a mention, nor will the accolade recognizing you as a leader. However, how good of a leader you are will come through on your resume in your work experience and in the answers to the questions you are asked during your interview. There is no paper, accolade or degree that can prove you are a good leader. Only you can do that through your actions.

[Neutron Whisperer]

Thanks Justin and Charlie.  I had thought, after posting, that the job interview would be where certain traits would come out.  Just to be clear, I am considering leadership and management to be interchangeable terms.  I'd have to disagree with you guys on the notion that leaders can't be trained but only developed from innate ability.  I'm pretty different now than I was at any time in the past, partly due to experience and partly due to my reading.

IMO, there certain truths that are independent of generation or culture that always work.  The 1st class you described who was trying to look good was leading the wrong way.  That implies there's a right way, or at least ways that are more right than his.  With a little brainstorming you could come up with all of the things that other people have thought of to describe a good leader.  Therefore, there must be parts of leadership that are independent of instinct and what you have from birth.

No, I'm not a senior 1st class like the one you described.  I'm staying true to my roots of time spent as a 3rd and 2nd class.  I'm not super digity but don't bash the Navy or my command at every opportunity either.  That old nuclear adage of "spreading hate and discontent" is the crux of "The No Complaining Rule," that constructive complaints are good because they identify problems thereby leading to improvement.  Whereas mindless whining about every thing is useless and contributes to reduced productivity by everyone else in the workplace.  A bit of knowledge/wisdom that can be learned by experience or by reading a book, no way more valid than the other.

I also deny the Navy's ability to produce good managers.  Those we've worked for who are thought of in high regard either were that way because it's just who they are or they took the time to improve themselves, by taking classes or reading books.  So, I agree with you on that Justin.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Cycoticpenguin]

   I believe that we DEVELOP skills that are innate to us. I would say everyone can be a manager, not everyone can be a leader. These imo, are not interchangable terms as you state. One is a title. One is a state of mind. How many times have you seen someone put in LPO just because they made first class? Because they scored well on a test, and spent enough time in, they made rank, and then suddenly are expected to be "leaders". There may be a correlation here, but its not necessarily the case. One simple acronym... "SPU".

At the end of the day, isnt everything we do just a bullet on a resume?

[my name is.....]

   I believe that we DEVELOP skills that are innate to us. I would say everyone can be a manager, not everyone can be a leader. These imo, are not interchangable terms as you state. One is a title. One is a state of mind. How many times have you seen someone put in LPO just because they made first class? Because they scored well on a test, and spent enough time in, they made rank, and then suddenly are expected to be "leaders". There may be a correlation here, but its not necessarily the case. One simple acronym... "SPU".

At the end of the day, isnt everything we do just a bullet on a resume?

Wise words...

[deltarho]

Leadership is different from management!

 Effective leadership distinguishes diverse notions as opportunities for quashing the status quo and spurring innovation, such as 'flashlights are tubular metal containers kept in the glove box for the purpose of storing dead batteries.'

Leadership requires different knowledge, a different skill set, and accomplishes a different purpose.

 Management deals with the present; leadership deals with the future.
 Management deals with resources; leadership deals with people and personalities. 
 Management deals with facts; leadership deals with ideas (2 wharves: 1 paradox).
(Adapted from: Van Ingen, S. (2007). Leadership of project teams. Chemical Engineering, 114(1), 55-58.)

Those books are not what is hot in Corporate America.  If you want to learn about leadership that will change your overall life:

Online Servant Leadership Certificate at Gonzaga University:

The Master's in Organizational Leadership is grounded in the values of servant-leadership. The hope is that graduates of this program become, in the words of former Jesuit leader Pedro Arrupe, "men and women for others." Fully accepted students may choose to earn the additional Servant Leadership Certificate to round out their program of study.

Anyone interested in earning the certificate, but not necessarily the full master's degree, may apply for "non-matriculated" status (not fully admitted into the program). Non-matriculated students may take up to 12 credits of graduate level coursework; the Servant Leadership Certificate is a 12-credit certificate.

Non-Matriculated Application Form

To earn the Servant Leadership Certificate, students must complete the following 3-credit courses (12 credits total):

ORGL 500 - Organizational Leadership
ORGL 503 - Organizational Ethics
ORGL 506  - Leadership and Diversity

and one of the following elective courses:
ORGL 530 - Servant Leadership
ORGL 532 - Leadership, Justice and Forgiveness

Found at http://www.gonzaga.edu/Academics/Colleges-and-Schools/School-of-Professional-Studies/Degrees-Programs/Masters-Organizational-Leadership/current-students/servant-leadership-certificate.asp

[deltarho]

By the way, here is the required book list for the ORGL 530 class on Servant Leadership:

Servant Leadership: A Journey Into the Nature of Legitimate Power and Greatness
Greenleaf, R. K.
New York: Paulist Press, 2002
ISBN: 0809105543

The Power of Servant Leadership
Greenleaf, R. K.
San Francisco: Berrett-Koehler
ISBN: 1576750353

The Journey to the East
Hesse, H.
New York: John Wiley & Sons.
ISBN: 0312421680

Seven Pillars of Servant Leadership: Practicing the Wisdom of Leading by Serving
Sipe, J.W. & Frick, D.M.
Mahwah, NJ: Paulist Press, 2009
ISBN: 080914560X

The Congruent Life
Thompson, M. C.
Hoboken: Jossey-Bass, 2000
ISBN: 0787950084

Focus on Leadership: Servant-Leadership for the 21st Century
Spears, L. C. & Lawrence, M. (Ed.) (2002).


I hope this helps.  And if you take the course, you may be lucky enough to get Larry Spears as your instructor, one of the nation's top experts in Servant Leadership.

[co60slr]

I hope this helps.  And if you take the course, you may be lucky enough to get Larry Spears as your instructor, one of the nation's top experts in Servant Leadership.

I don't believe that reading books or getting a "certificate in management" makes you a good leader/manager.  These "tools" help you to refine your skills in practice.  Also, I believe these types of books and courses can reenergize you to practice better management/leadership tools in your workplace.

Going out and getting an Automotive Mechanic certificate does NOT make me an expert in that field...it gives me a license to learn.  Qualifying as a nuclear operator doesn't make you an expert, it gives you a license to be safe and really learn how the plant works.

Anyway, for me to do any more Google searching into Larry Spears, someone is going to have to copy/paste a link to one of his students that has become a great manager/leader.   Otherwise, it sounds a bit "gimmicky" to me.

Separately, an PO2 can be a good Leader.   Many of them don't because they're waiting for someone to grant them a management title to go along with it.  Many of them don't because they're then bashing those with the management title..."someday when I'm the XXX [Chief, Division Officer, Engineer, XO, CO], we're going to do things differently".  If you think you need "management authority" to be a "leader", then you don't understand either concept.

http://www.amazon.com/360-Degree-Leader-Developing-Organization/dp/0785260927

360 Degree Leadership.  How you lead, how you follow, how you work with your peers, how you work with other manager's people (teamwork)...all wrapped up in one book.

However, some should start with the basics.
http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671723650

If you don't know how to clearly communicate with your peers, then don't think you can "win over" others with any leadership textbooks.   You may have the greatest idea in the world, but if you sound like an idiot to others, then no one listens.  (I had a few XOs guilty of this...they didn't get very far).

In the Nuclear Industry, you need three very clear attributes to be a Leader/Manager:
1.  Intelligent and Technically Competent.
2.  Energetic.
3.  Clearly speak/write.

I have seen people become a GS-15 without a 4-year degree, and only "certified SROs" become senior nuclear managers and VPs. When you met these people (Navy and Non-Navy) they CLEARLY all had those 3 common factors.   Likewise, I've seen degreed engineers go on to get their MBAs, PEs, (etc, etc) degrees and line their offices with their fancy degrees....but never get promoted out of that office.  Why?  Because they can LEARN the principles and get their certificate, but could not put them into practice...they lacked one of the 3 fundamental necessities (and sat in the chair waiting for someone to come in and look at their wall).

Start with #2.  Go into work today and give it your 110%.  Figure out how to improve #3.  Make #1 a life-long nuclear career goal.   THEN...read a few books in your spare time.   This is a life-long journey....welcome aboard.

[Gamecock]

1.  Intelligent and Technically Competent.
2.  Energetic.
3.  Clearly speak/write.


Start with #2.  Go into work today and give it your 110%.  Figure out how to improve #3.  Make #1 a life-long nuclear career goal.   

Great advice

[DDMurray]

I applaud the OP for trying to get better.  One of the things I learned as a boot Chief is the value of actions vice motion.  Examples:

1. Early in my career, the Navy spent a lot of time, money, and effort trying to improve leadership schools.   One of the things they tried to teach was to make your people feel like you care about them (motion).  It became obvious to me that as leaders we needed to genuinely care about our people and act accordingly (action).

2. The Navy stressed education.  Lots of people got degrees (certificates suitable for framing) by filling out forms and taking a couple of on-line courses (motion).  Others went to classes during off-duty hours, often with people from other than military/navy/nuclear/submarine backgrounds.  This helped them develop a more well-rounded approach to work/leadership/management that they could apply to their day-to-day job performance (action).

3. With the advent of the computer age, we could make all reports and forms look perfect (motion).  This led to LPO/LCPO/DIV-O/DH spending a good part of their time drafting perfect admin and developing checklists and ticklers for everything.  If you really want to know the status of your division's readiness, walk through your spaces frequently, spot-check PMS by observing the actual work, ensure roadblocks that waste your people's time are removed (action).

Other than that, listen to Co60.

[tselby]

"If you don't know how to clearly communicate with your peers, then don't think you can "win over" others with any leadership textbooks.   You may have the greatest idea in the world, but if you sound like an idiot to others, then no one listens.  (I had a few XOs guilty of this...they didn't get very far).

In the Nuclear Industry, you need three very clear attributes to be a Leader/Manager:
1.  Intelligent and Technically Competent.
2.  Energetic.
3.  Clearly speak/write.

I have seen people become a GS-15 without a 4-year degree, and only "certified SROs" become senior nuclear managers and VPs. When you met these people (Navy and Non-Navy) they CLEARLY all had those 3 common factors.   Likewise, I've seen degreed engineers go on to get their MBAs, PEs, (etc, etc) degrees and line their offices with their fancy degrees....but never get promoted out of that office.  Why?  Because they can LEARN the principles and get their certificate, but could not put them into practice...they lacked one of the 3 fundamental necessities (and sat in the chair waiting for someone to come in and look at their wall).

Start with #2.  Go into work today and give it your 110%.  Figure out how to improve #3.  Make #1 a life-long nuclear career goal.   THEN...read a few books in your spare time.   This is a life-long journey....welcome aboard."

There is no advice that can be given that has not been previously posted, Co60 as usual gives great advice...


Leadership is a style,
-it is action, vice words
-it is ever evolving
-it is adapting to ever constant change
-it is knowing your people and putting them in situations to excel
-it never ends only becomes more challenging
-it requires a passion to learn and never stop
-it requires dedication.............
-it requires drive

welcome aboard, I wish you the best of success

[co60slr]

I applaud the OP for trying to get better. 

Apologies...I meant to start off with this as well.

The OP is already on the right train track I bet..."Sailor of the Quarter" is a resume/Fitrep bullet that doesn't go unnoticed.

[Fermi2]

Word of advice. Ignore any advice that tells you to read books on leadership. You don't learn leadership from a book! I'm certain Patton, Spruance, Nimitz, Montgomery, Vian et al didn't read and books on leadership.

Mike

[tselby]

Word of advice. Ignore any advice that tells you to read books on leadership. You don't learn leadership from a book! I'm certain Patton, Spruance, Nimitz, Montgomery, Vian et al didn't read and books on leadership.

Mike

Mike is right on with this advice,,,,, what reading books on leadership allows you do to, is to see how others developed their own leadership style then put it to paper,,,, point being everyone has their own leadership style,,,,

you will need to learn and develop your own as it will correspond to your unique position whatever that may be......

Great Advice Mike

[Fermi2]

When I graduated one of the many BS "Leadership " schools that have been inflicted on me over the last 20 some odd years they gave us this book called It's Your Ship, written by a Naval Officer who had "turned around a shit" Now my impression is he was a fantastic guy, he seemed very straight forward common sense driven.
However he blew his own horn too much and it would have been more credible to me to see what the led thought.

The odd thing is my last "leadership" week long training at DTE had a graduation ceremony where the graduates gave a 1 minute talk, then they handed you a present. Given my last name starts with B I usually get to go first, or close to it. This time I was first and I stated "People, you won't ever learn leadership from a class or a book, it's an innate trait combined with acquired hard learned acquired skills and a knowledge at what makes people tick".
LOL then they handed me a Graduation Book!!!!!

I've read the books, simply because I believe you cannot evaluate anything without giving it a chance. Now I just put them on the dust pile. Reading about Nazi Germany and Stalin is far more fascinating!

[JustinHEMI05]

Agreed whole heartedly, that is why I said leaders are born, not trained or found in a book. It is easy to pick out which managers aren't natural leaders.

With my last utility, I went through a 4 week leadership course, none of which applied to the control room of a nuclear power plant. That stuff might work in the board room of Google, but not anywhere near where most on this forum work.

[Gamecock]

When I graduated one of the many BS "Leadership " schools that have been inflicted on me over the last 20 some odd years they gave us this book called It's Your Ship, written by a Naval Officer who had "turned around a shit" Now my impression is he was a fantastic guy, he seemed very straight forward common sense driven.
However he blew his own horn too much and it would have been more credible to me to see what the led thought.

FYI

"CAPTAIN" Abrashoff was actually a commander, not a captain.  He left the navy at the 18 years of service point. 

He also was not held in very high regards by those senior to him.

I have a friend who served on the good ship BENFOLD during Abrashoff's command.  He told me that the man didn't care much for the enlisted crew and couldn't connect with his wardroom.  He did however say that Abrashoff had a tremendous lack of humility.

[co60slr]

Dang it.  How do I get sucked into these threads.  15 minutes of Googling that I'll never get back.  .

Mike Abrashoff doesn't seem to be doing too badly now:
http://glsworld.com/

Interesting organization.   A few video links on Leadership, including a speech by Mike Abrashoff himself.

One of the Google links led to an article about him.  He was quoting as saying that he did his best work when he stopped worrying about his promotion/Fitreps and just did what he thought needed to be done.  It was only then that he got his best Fitrep...(according to the article).

Either he was truly a great leader, or he needs to run for Congress.   

[Fermi2]

FYI

"CAPTAIN" Abrashoff was actually a commander, not a captain.  He left the navy at the 18 years of service point. 

He also was not held in very high regards by those senior to him.

I have a friend who served on the good ship BENFOLD during Abrashoff's command.  He told me that the man didn't care much for the enlisted crew and couldn't connect with his wardroom.  He did however say that Abrashoff had a tremendous lack of humility.

Rocky, that's the guy who wrote the book right?
I figured he had zero humility, he certainly used the word I a lot. And EVERYONE just loved him, at least according to his view on things!

[Gamecock]

Rocky, that's the guy who wrote the book right?
I figured he had zero humility, he certainly used the word I a lot. And EVERYONE just loved him, at least according to his view on things!

Yes, Abrashoff was the author.   I'm told me makes a nice living today as a motivational speaker. 

[deltarho]

I thought my post was helping someone meet a particular need; instead, it seems I have stirred up a hornet's nest of pet peeves and strong opinions.  Where will the leadership book burning be held this year?  Obviously, I have differing opinions about leadership.  

Leadership is not innate.  If it was, "natural born leaders" would have a leadership gene, which implies that all aspects of leadership comes directly from the mind rather than being acquired by experience or from external sources—or learned.  If the preceding is true, this gift of heredity bodes well for the bearers' natural abilities to evaluate short term and long term ramifications of potential leadership decisions and actions, and must make them impervious to making leadership mistakes.  I suppose, for example, Patton was 100% correct and Dwight D. Eisenhower was the leadership dolt, having an axe to grind when he relieved Patton of his command for slapping a hospitalized soldier.

To use a metaphor, leadership is very much a performance sport; much like reading a skiing book is only a small part of being an exceptional skier, book knowledge is only a small part of effective, authentic leadership.  One learns mostly by doing it, reading and going to classes only to get more ideas.  Moreover, one will learn faster if he or she seeks out development opportunities, mentors, and role models to give ideas of what to do.  Fine tuning comes from critiquing your performance, whether it is from introspection or feedback from others.

Those who accept that leadership can be learned generally believe the most important and influential lessons about leadership come from experience.  It follows that the quality of interpreting and processing experiences determines what will or can be learned, which is dependent on how multifaceted one's frames of view are.  Therefore, I suggest that becoming familiar with the capricious nature of leadership by reading some books or completing a college course in leadership will accelerate the rate at which one learns from natural experiences, giving one additional ways of construing the leadership situations you face.

One last thing, Jesus Christ and George Washington practiced servant leadership, and I think everyone can agree at least one these persons was a great leader.

deltarho

[co60slr]

One last thing, Jesus Christ and George Washington practiced servant leadership, and I think everyone can agree at least one these persons was a great leader.

Sure...as long as we agree that neither one had a piece of paper hanging on their wall first giving their leadership a name!  

I'm not bashing what you're doing, but...

1.  Quote a leader that graduated from your school, not one that died 300, 2000 years ago, who had no clue what "Servant Leadership" means.  (2nd request).

2.  Tell us how it works out for you.  I am curious.

3.  Keep an open mind.  I've heard all the Leadership gimmicks in MY experience and yours sounds much like the past ones. However, I hope you prove me wrong and post as the CEO of your company one day.  I truly do.

[Fermi2]

Great Leaders are Innate leaders. Sorry that's how it goes.

[Fermi2]

Yes, Abrashoff was the author.   I'm told me makes a nice living today as a motivational speaker.  

He motivated me to want to puke! I never saw so much literary masturbation in my entire life!

[Willy]

I think you can train and read to be a leader.  A great leader has natural abilities that cannot be taught.  I have worked for guys who were great leaders and they were able to motivate us to do things that we didn't want to do.  Not only did we do it but we enjoyed doing it.  It's the ability to see what motivates each individual.  It's being able to get people to buy into what you want them to do.  Some people you have to be hard on, other you have to give words of encouragement, and some you just have to surround them with hard working people, and they will follow.  I think books and trainings are useful, but they are over rated.  Natural leaders are always three steps ahead of everyone else and thinking about whom they are going to put in which situation, because they want to put people in a position to be successful.  I do agree what you are doing is great, and thank you for your service. 

[Cycoticpenguin]

Great Leaders are Innate leaders. Sorry that's how it goes.

I agree 100%, however, getting a new perspective on things, if to do nothing else but to affirm your own views, is never a bad thing.

[RDTroja]

When I graduated one of the many BS "Leadership " schools that have been inflicted on me over the last 20 some odd years they gave us this book called It's Your Ship, written by a Naval Officer who had "turned around a shit"

The whole topic is a good debate (it would be better if some people would realize that their opinions do not automatically become facts) but this has got to be a candidate for Freudian Slip of the Year.

[Cycoticpenguin]

The whole topic is a good debate (it would be better if some people would realize that their opinions do not automatically become facts) but this has got to be a candidate for Freudian Slip of the Year.

I believe he was quoting the said officer on what he was calling a POS junior enlisted sailor or JO.

[RDTroja]

I believe he was quoting the said officer on what he was calling a POS junior enlisted sailor or JO.

If that is the case then the author can add 'Lousy Writer' to his resume, too.

[Cycoticpenguin]

If that is the case then the author can add 'Lousy Writer' to his resume, too.

Im merely speculating mike wrote that in context is all I read it like you did at first, but it has quotations on it.  Judging from what they are saying about him, I imagine he could be as bad as we think haha.

[Neutron Whisperer]

To use a metaphor, leadership is very much a performance sport; much like reading a skiing book is only a small part of being an exceptional skier, book knowledge is only a small part of effective, authentic leadership.  One learns mostly by doing it, reading and going to classes only to get more ideas.  Moreover, one will learn faster if he or she seeks out development opportunities, mentors, and role models to give ideas of what to do.  Fine tuning comes from critiquing your performance, whether it is from introspection or feedback from others.

deltarho

Very much appreciate everyone's input.  I think deltarho exactly captured my opinion on the usefulness of books and/or classes on leadership.  I simply do not believe that leadership is wholly innate.

And, trying to distinguish between "leadership" and "management" is like to trying to differentiate between "game" and "sport".  Hence, my interchangeable use.

[DDMurray]

Let me give you my compendiary opinion on the difference between management and leadership.

No one ever brilliantly managed failure.

History is full of great and admired leaders,...who failed.

Grant and Lee.

This simplistic explanation has resonated with me for years:

You lead people, you manage things.

[Fermi2]

And just remember, Leadership is an innate trait.

[Sun Dog]

No one ever brilliantly managed failure.

Those who cast votes for Bud Black or Ron Gardenhire may disagree.

[Neutron Whisperer]

And just remember, Leadership is an innate trait.

If that were true, then you could never claim to have learned anything from anyone about leadership; you'd just be how you were born.  It's absurd.  Not only have I learned from others how to lead I've also learned how not to lead, but I've learned from others.  Therefore, not wholly innate.

[JustinHEMI05]

I agree that it is innate. I've learned nothing from others about leadership.

[bmoney2223]

Leadership is a topic that has as many definitions as people who have tried to understand it. The most frequently used definition of leadership is an influence relationship between leaders and followers in a given situation who affect real change. Almost everyone here is using the word leadership when they should actually be using management. There are no substantial studies into traits or characteristics that are truly indicitive of leaders. The only trait that is shared by more than 80% of people in CEO or upper managerial roles is height. So if you are 6'0" or taller, you have a common trait with leaders or today's organizations. Leadership is very rare while good management is very frequent. To those that say you are born with leadership... that is bolony. College courses can give you a foundation of what needs to happen for leadership to occur. Leadership can happen from top to bottom or bottom to top and it is not a position. It is a phenomenon. The only way to make leadership happen is to create a relationship based on good influence. The leaders and followers must share a common belief and goal and everyone needs to be onboard with it. Until this happens, you CANNOT have leadership. The military is the #1 worst example of leadership. We are good managers. You can not use coercive force in leadership and leadership must be based on referent powers where the military power is based on how long you have been in the service and not your capabilities as a manager or leader. We have all worked for Master Chiefs who are more concerned with the shininess of the deck than organizational structure and meaning. While obtaining my Masters in Management, I realized how ignorant it was to think of the military as having hundreds and hundreds of great leaders. So you can learn how to be a better leader from life experiences and through education. Asking the civilian nuclear workers question like this will usually result in being put on blast. Usually they are more concerned with telling you to do research on your own or throwing snide comments from every direction. I would recommend completing some type of Masters degree in management and find a job in the non nuclear community. I have several job offers on the table outside of this community and they are far more inviting than the ones offered from the nuke world. The non nukes treasure a masters degree and award positions that you deserve. These guys are stuck on you have to get your foot in the door and work your way up. Look outside nuke world. Hope this helped.

[Sun Dog]

The only trait that is shared by more than 80% of people in CEO or upper managerial roles is height.

That is BS.  Well over 80% of all CEO and senior managers are white and have a penis.

College courses can give you a foundation of what needs to happen for leadership to occur.  

You can also read a book that explains how to throw a nasty curve ball or slider but that doesn't mean your ever going to be able to do it if you were not born with the natural ability.

[co60slr]

We have all worked for Master Chiefs who are more concerned with the shininess of the deck than organizational structure and meaning. While obtaining my Masters in Management, I realized how ignorant it was to think of the military as having hundreds and hundreds of great leaders.

So you can learn how to be a better leader from life experiences and through education. Asking the civilian nuclear workers question like this will usually result in being put on blast. Usually they are more concerned with telling you to do research on your own or throwing snide comments from every direction. I would recommend completing some type of Masters degree in management and find a job in the non nuclear community. I have several job offers on the table outside of this community and they are far more inviting than the ones offered from the nuke world. The non nukes treasure a masters degree and award positions that you deserve. These guys are stuck on you have to get your foot in the door and work your way up. Look outside nuke world. Hope this helped.

Why is housekeeping important in a technical organization?  You think senior enlisted/officers "like" cleaning?  What's your solution?   (Hint: it's no different in commercial or any other highly technical organization).   Use your Master's Degree and explain why the NNPP is so screwed up with their housekeeping practices.   

I've met many people like yourself that get a piece of graduate paper and self-proclaim expertise.  I've met several COs/Senior Managers with your Management degree that couldn't lead their way home without an escort.  So, based on this rock-throwing post without you succeeding in any real Leadership position yet, my conclusion today is that you haven't learned anything about management.  Your Master's degree may have landed you the perfect interview and job offer; however, beware...they're expecting results! 

I sincerely wish you luck in your non-nuclear endeavors and hope you'll post your successes in the Navy: Getting Out section.  While I agree there are tremendous non-nuclear opportunities out there, you may find yourself working for a retired Master Chief.   It's a VERY small world out here and while the Navy is far from perfect, I think you're in for some culture shock. 

Again, the three secrets:
1.  Intellect
2.  Energy
3.  Ability to write/speak clearly.

I did NOT list "Master's Degree".  That gets you job interviews...not promotions.

Leadership:  getting people (note:  not necessarily "subordinates") to do things they don't want to do in support of an organizational mission.   Soon you'll be that Master Chief required to motivate your division to do something you don't want to do, but your boss requires it.  I hope you have that day and succeed because only then will you understand any of what I just typed.

[Sun Dog]

80%+ of the world's CEO's and senior managers are not "white",...

I'll get back to you a bit later on the other assertion, I suspect that is wrong too...

wobblies,.....sheeeeeesh,...

Sorry, I am an American who tends to think in American terms, not the global, one market system supported by the current gatekeeper.  I should have been more specific.  I believe that >80% of the Fortune 500 CEO's are white.  In 11/10, there were 12 women CEOs in the Fortune 500.  That is 0.024%.  If you expand the list to the Fortune 1000, the number of female CEOs leaps to a total of 26, or 0.026%.

Face it.  It is a middle aged, white boy's club.

Pyramids
Published: November 2010

Fortune 500 (12 CEOs)
Patricia A. Woertz, Archer Daniels Midland Company (ADM) (#27)
Angela F. Braly, WellPoint, Inc. (#31)
Indra K. Nooyi, PepsiCo, Inc. (#50)
Irene B. Rosenfeld, Kraft Foods Inc. (#53)
Lynn Laverty Elsenhans, Sunoco (#78)
Ellen J. Kullman, DuPont (#86)
Carol M. Meyrowitz, The TJX Companies, Inc. (#119)
Ursula M. Burns, Xerox Corporation (#152)
Andrea Jung, Avon Products, Inc. (#228)
Laura Sen, BJ's Wholesale Club (#232)
Susan M. Ivey, Reynolds American, Inc. (#272)
Carol Bartz, Yahoo! Inc. (#343)

Fortune 501-1000 (14 CEOs)
Ilene Gordon, Corn Products International (#546)
Amy Miles, Regal Entertainment (#660)
Mindy F. Grossman, HSN (#685)
Linda A. Lang, Jack in the Box Inc. (#687)
Janet L. Robinson, The New York Times Company (#733)
Mary Berner, Reader's Digest Association (#738)
Constance H. Lau, Hawaiian Electric Industries, Inc. (#759)
Mary Agnes (Maggie) Wilderotter, Frontier Communications (#794)
Cindy B. Taylor, Oil States International, Inc. (#796)
Catherine Burzik, Kinetic Concepts (#833)
Tamara L. Lundgren, Schnitzer Steel Industries (#863)
Katherine (Kay) L. Krill, AnnTaylor Stores Corporation (#888)
Sara Mathew, Dun & Bradstreet, Inc. (#940)
Patricia Gallup, PC Connection, Inc. (#990)

[Marlin]

There are no substantial studies into traits or characteristics that are truly indicitive of leaders.

Business majors would agree but I don't think psychology majors would.

To those that say you are born with leadership... that is bolony. College courses can give you a foundation of what needs to happen for leadership to occur.

Where did leaders come from before colleges? I believe that leaders learn and evolve as much from intuitive intelligence as from formalized "training". In groups of people there are almost always a few who naturally gain respect and trust that is key to leadership. I don't mean to demean institutionalized leadership education, if it did not work there would not be Harvard's, Princetons and military academies.
  Don't get me wrong I agree with %95 of what you say it just seems a little narrow. There have been many leaders from humble beginnings in our history that did not have benefit of advanced education. There are a number of billionaires that have a high school diploma or less, it would be hard not to define them as leaders. Then there are those from academia who will never get it but then we seem to agree on that anyway.

That's just my opinion I could be wrong. D.M.  

[JustinHEMI05]

To those that say you are born with leadership... that is bolony. College courses can give you a foundation of what needs to happen for leadership to occur. Leadership can happen from top to bottom or bottom to top and it is not a position. It is a phenomenon. The only way to make leadership happen is to create a relationship based on good influence.

You are wrong. Leadership is a born trait.

That doesn't mean that all CEOs and managers are natural leaders. However, they are in positions that require leadership, so they have to "learn" it from somewhere. That doesn't make them good leaders at the end of the day. Maybe good managers, difference.

[Cycoticpenguin]

  Business majors would agree but I don't think psychology majors would.    Where did leaders come from before colleges? I believe that leaders learn and evolve as much from intuitive intelligence as from formalized "training". In groups of people there are almost always a few who naturally gain respect and trust that is key to leadership. I don't mean to demean institutionalized leadership education, if it did not work there would not be Harvard's, Princetons and military academies.
  Don't get me wrong I agree with %95 of what you say it just seems a little narrow. There have been many leaders from humble beginnings in our history that did not have benefit of advanced education. There are a number of billionaires that have a high school diploma or less, it would be hard not to define them as leaders. Then there are those from academia who will never get it but then we seem to agree on that anyway.

That's just my opinion I could be wrong. D.M.  

I dont consider bill gates ability to put together a circuit board a certain way to be leadership, nor do I do I equivocate google's inventor a great leader. Money and financial success does not mean they are good leaders.


Lets say Basketball is a learned trait. EVERYONE can get good if they practice. Not everyone will be michael jordan....  theres some god given innate ability. Look at his golfing -.-

[HydroDave63]

So, if I was really really reeeeally lucky I could go to college on one of those "Rhodes Scholarships". There, I could learn...

1. College courses can give you a foundation of what needs to happen for leadership to occur.

2.  The leaders and followers must share a common belief and goal and everyone needs to be onboard with it.

and what were Cecil Rhodes (very successful leader, one of the world's richest and most influential men of all time) common beliefs?

We must find new lands from which we can easily obtain raw materials and at the same time exploit the cheap slave labor that is available from the natives of the colonies. The colonies would also provide a dumping ground for the surplus goods produced in our factories.

Cecil Rhodes

That is BS.  Well over 80% of all CEO and senior managers are white and have a penis.

Rhodes would agree...

Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first prize in the lottery of life.

Cecil Rhodes

Ok, but certainly influential leaders have changed since then, right?


Whatever the price of the Chinese Revolution, it has obviously succeeded not only in producing more efficient and dedicated administration, but also in fostering high morale and community of purpose. The social experiment in China under Chairman Mao's leadership is one of the most important and successful in human history.– David Rockefeller

Well, so much for a pay raise and more PTO days. At least I get a good health care plan with free vaccines, right?

Remember, it's all about loving your leadership!

Now, taking a look at all those experienced world leaders, I think I found their common relative!

[Marlin]

I dont consider bill gates ability to put together a circuit board a certain way to be leadership, nor do I do I equivocate google's inventor a great leader. Money and financial success does not mean they are good leaders.

  Lots of people put together circuit boards these men put together teams that made their companies successful and their subordinates very wealthy. Your example does not pass the logic test or the "Duh check". These men excelled in team building, vision, and expertise.


P.S. Bill Gates made his money through the licensing of software not hardware.

[Cycoticpenguin]

  Lots of people put together circuit boards these men put together teams that made their companies successful and their subordinates very wealthy. Your example does not pass the logic test or the "Duh check". These men excelled in team building, vision, and expertise.


P.S. Bill Gates made his money through the licensing of software not hardware.

Quite simply, bill gates exploited an unused market and made lots of money. They grew exponentially and he became the wealthiest man on the planet. Is he a leader? Maybe, but not because he has lots of money. Intelligence to hire smart people and good leaders does not make yourself a good leader. It means you are smart enough to know yourself.

[Marlin]

Quite simply, bill gates exploited an unused market and made lots of money. They grew exponentially and he became the wealthiest man on the planet. Is he a leader? Maybe, but not because he has lots of money. Intelligence to hire smart people and good leaders does not make yourself a good leader. It means you are smart enough to know yourself.

   Bill gates went against the the conventional wisdom of the day which showed he had vision and yes he hired the best he could what good leader would not? He set up a new working environment that has been copied many times since. He understood his coworkers and provided what they needed to succeed for themselves and his company. He is now leading other billionaires in unprecedented philanthropy I don't know about you but somewhere in there is an innate leadership that did not come out of a book.

[HydroDave63]

Billions have paid the price over and over for his business philosophy, and Gates is trying, as if the very hounds of hell were at his heels, to buy his way into Heaven.

Based on the attached Bilderberg/CFR videos, I'm inclined to agree

[Marlin]

Oh please Marlin, Gates was in college just long enough to read Vance Packard and decide that GM's business model was a better money maker than VW's.

Billions have paid the price over and over for his business philosophy, and Gates is trying, as if the very hounds of hell were at his heels, to buy his way into Heaven.

Manager - yes.

Leader - not so much.

Can't say I see the correlation between motivational sales and licensing of software.  



History is full of extremely wealthy people buying a better legacy than a Scrooge without the Christmas eve conversion.  



Maybe the visualization of an "Erkel" as a leader is a problem.  

[Gamecock]

somebody unattached your videos,......

Not me!!!

[co60slr]

Leader - not so much.

Bill Gates can buy leaders.  He was an ingenious inventor/innovator.

Note:  Gates retired and Microsoft now slides.   Yahoo is laying off.  Google is prospering.  Go figure.

Get too big and some other dog comes along and wacks you down.

It always comes back to Darwin.   

[Gamecock]

I am impressed. Job offers on the table from companies willing to wait two years for an enlisted Navy guy with a couple of TESC degrees.

The part that is amusing is this part;

Why, after using your Masters Degreed skillset to come to your conclusions concerning Navy (and by association ex-Navy) lack of leadership would you come to the NukeWorker Forum > Career Path > Navy Nuke > Navy:Getting Out forum and query those very same people when you already have "several job offers on the table outside of this community and they are far more inviting than the ones offered from the nuke world" ?

One of the best management skillsets I have been schooled in is knowing when to stop squeezing blood from a stone.

Perhaps TESC does not include that lesson in their curricula.

Bottom line;

Your stories do not add up;

an experienced person (8 year Navy vet),...

with Baccalaureate and Master levels of education (TESC),...

with inviting positions of employment on the table a full two years out from being eligible for that employment,...

would not be wasting and mismanaging their personal time chasing nuclear career phantasms they have no intention of pursuing,...

Particularly when that person has developed the insights into the inadequacies of the Navy and civilian nuclear personnel your previous posts have displayed,...

it's not like you are going to come into the civilian nuclear paradigm and turn it on it's head with your advanced management schooling and insight, if you cannot individually affect such sweeping changes on something as small as a sea going command or NFAS, what hope would you have at a 1200 employee station chock full of career back stabbers and union loyalists?!?

I'm just saying,....it don't add up,.....

welcome to nukeworker,....t-baller,.....

(sic)

Is there anything anybody posts, ever, that you miss?

[deltarho]

Marssim doesn't believe in poetic licence, letting a guy express himself in loose and imaginative terms.  What a wet blanket on such an informal forum such as this; this ain't rocket science after all!

[co60slr]

I got a knack for remembering,....

It's not photographic, it's associative, and not necessarily always a good thing,...

I cannot believe that I wasted 15 minutes of my life replying to a NUB that thinks he knows more about the NNPP than anyone else....and he hasn't left NFAS yet?   I'll be smiting myself all day for that.   Ug!

Oh yes...I've met people like him.  They ALL do down in flames.   The reason he's going non-nuclear, is no one will hire him to be a Plant Manager without knowing anything.   Walmart will though.

I love it when something suddenly makes sense.   Back to smiting myself....

[MacGyver]

I cannot believe that I wasted 15 minutes of my life replying to a NUB that thinks he knows more about the NNPP than anyone else....and he hasn't left NFAS yet?   I'll be smiting myself all day for that.   Ug!

Oh yes...I've met people like him.  They ALL do {You mean"GO" right?} down in flames.   The reason he's going non-nuclear, is no one will hire him to be a Plant Manager without knowing anything.   Walmart will though.

I love it when something suddenly makes sense.   Back to smiting myself....

Fixed it for ya'!

[HydroDave63]

I cannot believe that I wasted 15 minutes of my life replying to a NUB that thinks he knows more about the NNPP than anyone else....and he hasn't left NFAS yet?   I'll be smiting myself all day for that.   Ug!

Oh yes...I've met people like him.  They ALL do down in flames.   The reason he's going non-nuclear, is no one will hire him to be a Plant Manager without knowing anything.   Walmart will though.

I love it when something suddenly makes sense.   Back to smiting myself....

Uh, that's like one of those "Don't Ask Don't Tell" things, right?

[Neutron Whisperer]

So we've agreed on...?

[Already Gone]

I don't know about half of the crap I have read on this thread.  Seriously.  Leadership, management, what's the difference?  Can you learn it from books, or from experience, or do you have to be born with it?  Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Listen, most people at some point in their lives are placed in a position of leadership.  Usually, they succeed.  The point is that you make 12 year old Jimmy the Patrol Leader, and he will eventually get the campfire lit.  When he grows up, he's going to be a foreman, a superintendent, a manager, a Senior VP, or something.  Some rise to higher levels of responsibility than others, but all are leaders of some sort or another.

"Leadership" may not necessarily be an innate ability; it may be the combination of many different abilities -- some of which are personality driven and therefore "innate".  Other of those abilities may be learned from study, and still others by experience.

But, I don't agree that an effective, high-level leader of great responsibility is born to be so.  Otherwise, maybe we ought to reconsider our position on Monarchy vs. Democracy.  At the very least, if leadership is an innate quality, it seems that it probably isn't that rare among the human species.  Otherwise, we'd be stupid not to have a dictator instead of an elected government.  After all, if leadership is rare, then it would be wise to appoint them for life.
In fact, dictators (like good leaders) seem to find a way into their positions without regard to rules, laws, or things like political mainstream views (remember that Hitler called himself a socialist and they bought it, even while he demonized communists, and still got himself elected in a country that called itself a republic - go figure).

A leader makes people move.  That is not necessarily a good thing.

[Marlin]

I don't know about half of the crap I have read on this thread.  Seriously.  Leadership, management, what's the difference?  Can you learn it from books, or from experience, or do you have to be born with it?  Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Listen, most people at some point in their lives are placed in a position of leadership.  Usually, they succeed.  The point is that you make 12 year old Jimmy the Patrol Leader, and he will eventually get the campfire lit.  When he grows up, he's going to be a foreman, a superintendent, a manager, a Senior VP, or something.  Some rise to higher levels of responsibility than others, but all are leaders of some sort or another.

"Leadership" may not necessarily be an innate ability; it may be the combination of many different abilities -- some of which are personality driven and therefore "innate".  Other of those abilities may be learned from study, and still others by experience.

But, I don't agree that an effective, high-level leader of great responsibility is born to be so.  Otherwise, maybe we ought to reconsider our position on Monarchy vs. Democracy.  At the very least, if leadership is an innate quality, it seems that it probably isn't that rare among the human species.  Otherwise, we'd be stupid not to have a dictator instead of an elected government.  After all, if leadership is rare, then it would be wise to appoint them for life.
In fact, dictators (like good leaders) seem to find a way into their positions without regard to rules, laws, or things like political mainstream views (remember that Hitler called himself a socialist and they bought it, even while he demonized communists, and still got himself elected in a country that called itself a republic - go figure).

Wow BC, did someone pee in your Cornflakes? 

Other than you are tired of hearing anything about this subject  I'm not sure what new angle you have provided.

You are usually much more rational.

A leader makes people move.  That is not necessarily a good thing.

OK there was one point that was new and poignant

[Already Gone]

Sorry, I guess my point is that people are born with a lot of traits.  Some of those probably enhance one's leadership ability.  Some detract from it.

The idea that someone is "born" to lead rings pretty elitist to me.  The idea is bull**** really.

A leader is one who has followers - period.  Only God can count all the different reasons why a flock of people might be motivated by one particular person.  Hitler, Christ, Bin Laden, Joseph Smith, Chuck Noll, Knute Rockne, David Koresh... all were leaders.  All were different from each other and all born under diverse circumstances.  The quality of their individual leadership abilities are as diverse as they were as men.  Out of that entire list, only one was "born" to lead.

[JustinHEMI05]

Sorry, I guess my point is that people are born with a lot of traits.  Some of those probably enhance one's leadership ability.  Some detract from it.

The idea that someone is "born" to lead rings pretty elitist to me.  The idea is bull**** really.

A leader is one who has followers - period.  Only God can count all the different reasons why a flock of people might be motivated by one particular person.  Hitler, Christ, Bin Laden, Joseph Smith, Chuck Noll, Knute Rockne, David Koresh... all were leaders.  All were different from each other and all born under diverse circumstances.  The quality of their individual leadership abilities are as diverse as they were as men.  Out of that entire list, only one was "born" to lead.

A leader is on that has followers, period? Bull****. Leadership is an innate trait.

[deltarho]

A leader is on that has followers, period? Bull****. Leadership is an innate trait.

For those who continue to stir the pot: Leadership is not a property and cannot be measured in a person.  Although leadership has many definitions, it boils down to being a process; usually one influences an individual or group of individuals to achieve a common goal.  Leadership is thus a communication or activity between two or more people that influences and affects all of them.  Leadership involves the exchange of information or instructions between persons, occurring between a leader and his or her followers—it is not just the result of innate characteristics or traits of the leader.

If any trait is innate, it must be that people are born followers—Nazi Germany is my proof.  Okay, I just said that for effect because it was funny, and just as ridiculous or possible as a trait for being a leader.

[HydroDave63]

If any trait is innate, it must be that people are born followers—Nazi Germany is my proof.  Okay, I just said that for effect because it was funny, and just as ridiculous or possible as a trait for being a leader.

Of course, it is innate to the inheritance-folk. And when performance is low, one just needs a few disapproving glares, and then at 0:48 an aspiring leader will demonstrate initiative!

at least that's how it worked when Crew A was winning all the Chart House bucks awards!

[JustinHEMI05]

For those who continue to stir the pot: Leadership is not a property and cannot be measured in a person.  Although leadership has many definitions, it boils down to being a process; usually one influences an individual or group of individuals to achieve a common goal.  Leadership is thus a communication or activity between two or more people that influences and affects all of them.  Leadership involves the exchange of information or instructions between persons, occurring between a leader and his or her followers—it is not just the result of innate characteristics or traits of the leader.

If any trait is innate, it must be that people are born followers—Nazi Germany is my proof.  Okay, I just said that for effect because it was funny, and just as ridiculous or possible as a trait for being a leader.

There are born leaders, everyone else is born followers.

It is easy to spot a "leader" who wasn't born to do it.

[co60slr]

Fixed it for ya'!

Indeed. Thank you.   Or, thank "ya'!", as you say.  Also, thank you for the colorful PM in parallel with your public presentation.   I have 200 PMs that include many "thank you's" for my help and now one rude one.   No matter.  You're 100 percent correct.   My posting had an error.   

A review of your postings and the nice PM reveals what I consider to be more interesting spelling/grammar errors.   I wonder if YOU can find them though.   Copy/paste your best post/contribution to Nukeworker for peer review.

Otherwise, maybe the NFAS nub that you defend will arrive at Southern in a few years and be your boss.   Please, let us know how that works out for you.

Co58

[Neutron Whisperer]

It seems like those who support "leadership can be taught" write more than 5 words for their opinion.  However, those in the "innate camp" say nothing beyond the word itself: "Great Leaders are Innate leaders. Sorry that's how it goes." and "Leadership is an innate trait."

How about those in the innate camp back up their position.  If it's easy to spot one who "wasn't born to lead," then how is such a guy spotted?  If it's innate, then there's a gene for such an ability.  If that's true, then in a couple years we can genetically engineer every child to be a great leader, throw away every book on leadership, and fire every instructor on the subject.

I'm open to converting to the innate camp, but I'm not convinced yet.  Mainly because they haven't offered any explanation.

[Preciousblue1965]

It seems like those who support "leadership can be taught" write more than 5 words for their opinion.  However, those in the "innate camp" say nothing beyond the word itself: "Great Leaders are Innate leaders. Sorry that's how it goes." and "Leadership is an innate trait."

How about those in the innate camp back up their position.  If it's easy to spot one who "wasn't born to lead," then how is such a guy spotted?  If it's innate, then there's a gene for such an ability.  If that's true, then in a couple years we can genetically engineer every child to be a great leader, throw away every book on leadership, and fire every instructor on the subject.

I'm open to converting to the innate camp, but I'm not convinced yet.  Mainly because they haven't offered any explanation.

Ok how about this for the "innate" camp.  I say that leadership can be learned and it can be innate.  The reason I say this is that if you look at youth sports.  You can't tell me that those kids have sat down and read a leadership book at some point in their lives, yet you see some  of the kids step up and take charge during the games or during practice.  So obviously there has to be something there from birth. By the same token, I fully believe that those who aren't "natural" leaders can read, learn, and apply leadership techniques over the course of their careers.  So there you go, I am officially riding the fence on this one.

[JustinHEMI05]

Let me get this straight...are you saying that there are leaders who were born to lead [either for good or evil, you should admit that Charlie Manson was a very effective leader even though he had no formal training], but there are also leaders who were taught to lead [created] but are no good at it because they have no natural leadership qualities?

Makes sense to me!

Stop putting words in my mouth.

I mostly am just stirring the pot at this point because I HATE when people like BC come in here, and dismiss other's opinions as BS.

[Marvin]

Amusing thread.  One thing is certain.  A running forum on an industry website is not a credible point of reference for the topic of leadership.

[Cycoticpenguin]

Knowledge and application are two different things. Someone can read about leadership all they want, but may not apply it in the best sense. Good leaders can be made or taught, great leaders are born.
The children leadership angle is a good one imo.

I have a simple analogy. Ever hear about someone who is "mechanically inclined"? Its generally refered to as somone who can instinctively do something with a wrench. You can always learn to build something, but some people just grasp it better.

Another analogy. Musicians, And artists. Some people can grasp instruments Better. Look at eddie van halen. Plenty of people play as much as him, very very few hguitare god given gift he has on the six string guitar. You can practice and study all you want, most likely you will get proficient, but probably not as good as him.

Why is leadership any different? Its a skilled talent some have.

[Fermi2]

It's innate.

[HydroDave63]

Let me get this straight...are you saying that there are leaders who were born to lead [either for good or evil, you should admit that Charlie Manson was a very effective leader even though he had no formal training], but there are also leaders who were taught to lead [created] but are no good at it because they have no natural leadership qualities?

Makes sense to me!

At the risk of being chumped if this was a facetious post, I would actually agree with it. In the first instance, think of the Flight 93 passengers who led the others into a plan of action. They probably didn't have time for the full gamut of lifeboat-ethics, Maslow's Pyramid of Priorities and a 7 Habits of Highly Defective Managers review, but nonetheless created a plan, led others etc.

In the second instance of leaders created/designated....read the phrase "fencepost turtle", close your eyes and what manager/leader do you see first?

[shocker]

After reading the thread I am still confused as to why the common belief is that people must either be a Leader, or a Follower.

Does it not make more sense for there to be a scale, where some trend to one side or the other, and others fit neatly in the middle?

Personally I do believe you are born to be somewhere on that scale.  Not everyone needs, or wants, to be a leader.  If everyone was a leader, no one would follow.  There are countless adages along those lines: "Too many cooks in the kitchen", "Too many chiefs, not enough indians", etc.

Some people would love nothing else but to show up for work, do the job they were trained to do, and go home.  Some people dream to lead armies, or companies to greatness.  That burning desire to lead is the innate part of leadership you are born with and can not be taught from books.

[RDTroja]

It seems like those who support "leadership can be taught" write more than 5 words for their opinion.  However, those in the "innate camp" say nothing beyond the word itself: "Great Leaders are Innate leaders. Sorry that's how it goes." and "Leadership is an innate trait."

How about those in the innate camp back up their position.  If it's easy to spot one who "wasn't born to lead," then how is such a guy spotted?  If it's innate, then there's a gene for such an ability.  If that's true, then in a couple years we can genetically engineer every child to be a great leader, throw away every book on leadership, and fire every instructor on the subject.

I'm open to converting to the innate camp, but I'm not convinced yet.  Mainly because they haven't offered any explanation.

It's innate.

Brilliant argument. Probably convinced a whole army of doubters. The great and powerful Oz has spoken. 

[co60slr]

Brilliant argument. Probably convinced a whole army of doubters. The great and powerful Oz has spoken. 

I've started asking myself what we'll do with the answer when if falls from the sky.

It's Nature/Innate.   [Insert long silence here].    Now what?

It's Nurtured (i.e., education, experience).   [Insert another long pause].  Now what?

Both?  If you don't have a desire to be a leader, you wouldn't be trying so hard.   Much like a musician practicing a musical instrument maybe?  How can a three year old become a master violinist and awe the world on TV while someone else practices their whole life and will never hope to achieve the same?   

Leaders, Artists, Mathematicians.   It seems there has to be some rough framework in your brain for your particular destiny before you can fill it in with books.   Can anyone become a master painter?  Can anyone become a great theoretical mathematician?   

Can an average person be a leader, artist, musician, and mathematician....to an "average" extent?   Of course.

What does it take to become "world class" or an "outlier" to normal society?  How do we define "world class"?  Can a Father be a great leader of his family, but then go to work as car manufacturing line assembly worker?

Good book: http://www.gladwell.com/outliers/index.html

[MacGyver]

Indeed. Thank you.   Or, thank "ya'!", as you say.  Also, thank you for the colorful PM in parallel with your public presentation.   I have 200 PMs that include many "thank you's" for my help and now one rude one.   No matter.  You're 100 percent correct.   My posting had an error.  

A review of your postings and the nice PM reveals what I consider to be more interesting spelling/grammar errors.   I wonder if YOU can find them though.   Copy/paste your best post/contribution to Nukeworker for peer review.

Otherwise, maybe the NFAS nub that you defend will arrive at Southern in a few years and be your boss.   Please, let us know how that works out for you.

Co58

"Much fear (and anger) I sense in you"  -  Yoda

Post is here

"We?"  I, for one don't care about Internet Forum spell checking.  How one writes in an Internet forum, email, IRC, chat, SMS, etc has NOTHING to do with their professional technical writing skills.  More importantly, technical accuracy is more important (to me) than grammatical accuracy (which can always be fixed during final proofing).  The culture in the 21st century that launches "kids" into the professional world with bad email habits is not going to be fixed here.  

I've met several officers/managers that can compile a 100 page report that says absolutely nothing, but is grammatically correct.  Sometimes, they would even kick it off with a fancy 20 page PowerPoint that also said nothing, but had a lot of fancy animations for show.   All a complete waste of time if the issues are not clearly presented (or worse yet...not valid).   For example, have you ever seen a root cause analysis report with perfect grammar...yet fixes nothing?  Worthless!

So for starters, the "kid" needs to have a solid WORKING knowledge of algebra.  (Also needed for Calculus and higher engineering studies).  If not, I'm not going to care what his writing skills are since he won't be a nuke.  Otherwise, I'll be happy to train him him how to write when the time comes.  In the end, if he's not a clear thinker, than perhaps "we" can explain how that will limit his Navy and Commercial Nuclear career?   "Technical writing" is not a class taught at NPS or in any Commercial Nuclear Training curriculum.   OJT after initial quals?  OJT after a few tours?

Separately, I want to have a Nuke working for me that speaks his/her mind...especially to challenge me regardless of any rank or title.  For that, the poster is commended; however, he'll get "smacked down" enough while he's a "NUB" at Prototype to figure out what many people were illustrating in response to his "disrespect".  Perhaps then, he (et al) will figure out why so many of his predecessors entered the Navy with such a great attitude, only to have it squashed by instances of poor/uncaring leadership.  Should we "spoonfeed?"  Definitely not, and the NNPP and Commercial training programs will see to that.  

If he's an exceptional operator, clear thinker, writer, and overall "nuke leader"...perhaps it's one of US that will be working for HIM one day.   (Yes, I've seen that a few times in 20+ years).  No exposure to higher math, physics, chemistry, trig...but was able to pass the NNPP entrance exam?  That raised my curiosity about his intellectual ability.  I guessed that the original poster knows what to do to address his weaknesses and was simply looking for some reassurance.  He didn't need any answer, in my opinion.  He knows what to do and it's all a matter of how badly he wants to be a nuke.

Co60

Yes, I researched your posts and knew exactly what button to push.  I gave you a chance to fix your spelling error and asked you to not to act like you are perfect (because you are not).  And my pm had such "colorful" {sic} language that it got your back up.  I don't find "thin skinned" a charactistic valuable in the Nuclear Community.  At least in good "Leaders".  And, wouldn't good leaders be spending less time on NW and more on leading?  That is a rhetorical question so there will be no need to answer it, thanks.


As a side note I have a few examples of your consistence (or the lack thereof):
Example 1
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,25454.msg130202.html#msg130202

We know your opinion, and it's rejected.

"Te" is actually spelled "the".   Hit the spell checker every now and then...ok?  Mr. God-Nuke of the Dictionary.

Example 2
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,25454.msg130300.html#msg130300

...I try to hit spell checker on my post before critiquing others on their spelling.

If you want to win an argument with me about the nuclear navy, you'll have to do better than referencing books.  While you were busy reading over the years, I was actually in that nuclear navy for two decades.  Keep reading.

If you're looking for me to disagree with you about Rickover, it's unlikely to happen.  The books highlight a history on how the NNPP was built, and I could care less about one man's personality flaws.  His Ego caught up with him one day and his career was sunsetted.

I'm curious for you to compare/contrast the various Rickover books.  I'll see you on your Rickover Thread, if/when you decide to start an intellectual conversation.

Co58

Example 3
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,25727.msg131971.html#msg131971

Dang that was difficult.  10 minutes of "NW forum formatting and reformatting" that I'll never get back.

[HydroDave63]

Good book: http://www.gladwell.com/outliers/index.html

I'll probably be late for work, but that book review and author's website is awesome!

The one quote that pertains to this thread lately is as follows:

" But the southerners? Oh my. They were angry. Their cortisol and testosterone jumped. Their handshakes got firm. "

http://www.gladwell.com/outliers/outliers_excerpt2.html

[Marlin]

I'll probably be late for work, but that book review and author's website is awesome!

The one quote that pertains to this thread lately is as follows:

" But the southerners? Oh my. They were angry. Their cortisol and testosterone jumped. Their handshakes got firm. "

http://www.gladwell.com/outliers/outliers_excerpt2.HTML

   I have read his books and would recommend them to anyone wanting to gain insight into themselves and people as a whole. His other books are "Blink" and "Tipping Point", "Blink" deals with an individuals decision making process and "Tipping Point" explores how some things can produce effects that escalate exponentially in some situations but not others. These are especially useful to managers and salespeople.


  Even though I think that some people have an innate ability to become a leader they clearly would be a More effective and productive leader after reading these and other books on Leadership. 

[deltarho]

Much like a musician practicing a musical instrument maybe?  How can a three year old become a master violinist and awe the world on TV while someone else practices their whole life and will never hope to achieve the same?   

Leaders, Artists, Mathematicians.   It seems there has to be some rough framework in your brain for your particular destiny before you can fill it in with books.   Can anyone become a master painter?  Can anyone become a great theoretical mathematician?   

Can an average person be a leader, artist, musician, and mathematician....to an "average" extent?   Of course.

Co60Slr, surely you understand how the solar system is similar to the atom, with planets orbiting the sun like electrons orbiting the nucleus.  We also know that electrons jump valences or from orbit to orbit; therefore, astronomers must have observed the planets exhibiting the same behavior, planets jumping from orbit to orbit.  I'm sorry; your argument to compare leadership with musicianship or artistry is just as invalid because you are using bad analogies or spurious similarities. 

Leadership requires the action of two or more persons to exist, not true for any of your examples of supposed parallels to a leader: artist, musician, or mathematician.  Nevertheless, may we get philosophical for a moment?  Allen (2004) interpreted the French sociologist Michel Foucault's view on power:

Foucault . . . depicted power as a behavior or process that pervades all human interaction. In contrast to the "power over" stance, which implies that power occurs occasionally, Foucault asserts that "power resides in every perception, every judgment, every act." Foucault contended that people enact power to produce and reproduce, resist, or transform structures of communication and meaning, even in the most mundane social practices.  (p. 25)

Michel Foucault (1979) wrote about power:

It is never localized here or there, never in anybody's hands, never appropriated as a commodity or piece of wealth.  Power is employed and exercised through a net-like organization.  And not only do individuals circulate between its threads; they are always in the position of simultaneously undergoing and exercising this power.  They are not only its inert or consenting target; they are always also the elements of its articulation. In other words, individuals are the vehicles of power, not its points of application. (p. 98)

Power always involves a set of actions performed upon another person's responses and actions.  In essence, a power relationship can exist only if two prerequisites are continuously in play: that the person whom power is exercised on is recognized as a person who will act, and that those acts will necessarily be carried out by a multiplicity of reactions, results, and innovations (Foucault, 1982).

According to Foucault, nobody can have power over you unless you choose to participate; power requires a relationship.  In light of this, I posit that when one who wishes to exert power over another is not getting him or her to join the dance, the oppressor raises the stakes with threats, innuendos, hiding behind social equality rhetoric, or similar behavior we have observed in this thread: fallacious arguments such as bad analogies, spurious similarities, argument by dismissal (an idea is rejected without saying why), argument by vehemence (that's B.S.), and so forth.
__________
Allen, B. (2004). Difference matters: Communicating social identity. Long Grove, IL: Waveland Press.
Foucault, M. (with Hurley, R. [translator]). (1979). The history of sexuality: An introduction. London, England: Penguin Books.
Foucault, M. (1982). The Subject and Power. In Dreyfus, H. L. & Rabinow, P. (Eds.). Michel Foucault: Beyond structuralism and hermeneutics. IL: University of Chicago Press.

[HydroDave63]

Co60Slr, surely you understand how the solar system is similar to the atom, with planets orbiting the sun like electrons orbiting the nucleus.  We also know that electrons jump valences or from orbit to orbit; therefore, astronomers must have observed the planets exhibiting the same behavior, planets jumping from orbit to orbit.  I'm sorry; your argument to compare leadership with musicianship or artistry is just as invalid because you are using bad analogies or spurious similarities. 

Speaking of flawed analogies and planetary motion... Laplace might have bought into that planetary "discrete quanta" track theory (another French philosopher!), but Newton and Herschel calculated effects of perturbation of astronomical bodies in motion. Which actually brings us back onto topic , because the astronomical body with more pull will "lead" the other body towards it!

[DDMurray]

Co60Slr, surely you understand .... blah, blah, blah (with references)

Are you saying you disagree with Co60 or are you showing us how educated and well-read you are?

By the way, I think Outliers is probably one of the best books I've read that combines research and common sense to support the author's theories.  It's a good read whether or not you buy into the author's point of view; plus it's short.

[Neutron Whisperer]

Anyone consider himself/herself as a good leader?  Why?

[my name is.....]

Im a good leader because my mommy said so!

[co60slr]

I'm sorry; your argument to compare leadership with musicianship or artistry is just as invalid because you are using bad analogies or spurious similarities. 

So, I'm wrong just because you say so?  Then, you throw more books at us?   Are you demonstrating the leadership here that you're being taught?  "I'm right, you're wrong. Period.  Get back to work"...

My references reflected other analogies that suggest it takes 10,000 hours to master something.  You name the subject if you don't like mine.  My theory is that if 100 people spend 10,000 hours trying to become a leader the performance result will be a bell curve.  To be really good at anything, I think you have to be "gifted" (or have innate qualities).   However, I don't believe people without innate leadership qualities are doomed to failure, but I don't believe they'll ever be a CEO.

Meanwhile, I still want proof that you're not attending some "Cult College".  Again, name a leader that has come out of your "Church of Leadership of Jesus Christ".  (2nd request).  If you're sitting on some gold pile of all-knowing leadership training Jedi academy, then surely you have examples...right?   

Also, I (and probably the other 3000 viewers to this thread) would like to know how your education is being applied to YOUR real life examples. Yes, Navy: Getting Out people need tools to use in the nuclear industry.   (At some point you have to put those books down and roll up your own sleeves!)  Otherwise, you can quote all the books you want and spend the rest of your life doing the same.   Don't forget to hang that pretty degree on the wall some day too!

Leadership = Results.   Nature versus Nature, or otherwise is a philosophical debate, which as we can all predict has no final right answer.  Meanwhile, my vote is for you to now "Show us the money" from your Savant Soapbox or go make some.  I'm still waiting.

The senior officers and managers of the military and commercial nuclear utilities are not looking for any leadership gimmicks from no name universities. (FACT).  I don't have the full 100 percent answer, (nor do I believe there is one answer), but I don't think your college comes even close.  I'll wager that some people here may have had some luck in the last 25+ years of nuclear experience to know what works in this industry.

Again, I can't speak for WalMart.  Some non-nuclear companies do like to try the gimmicks.   However, they also lay people off when they the gimmick fails.   

Co58

[deltarho]

Are you saying you disagree with Co60 or are you showing us how educated and well-read you are?

By the way, I think Outliers is probably one of the best books I've read that combines research and common sense to support the author's theories.  It's a good read whether or not you buy into the author's point of view; plus it's short.

Master Chief,

I'm sorry if I offended you in some way, and I have to believe I have because HydroDave63, for example, has written much more cogently on subjects far more diverse than leadership, and although I did only a cursory search, I cannot find an instance in which you besmirched his intentions or intimated he was a showoff.

Perhaps the answer to "why did he try to flame me?" is in your post.  I'm guessing you hastily skimmed through what I wrote instead of perusing it because I clearly wrote in the first paragraph that I disagreed with Co60Slr's argument, and gave supporting reasons to boot. 

As to the nature of the rest of my post, to date all of our arguments have been anecdotal.  I believe providing information that frames my view is an act of humility, making me vulnerable, and can only enrich the conversation and promote dialogue; it gives others opportunities to find holes in my thinking and to challenge my assertions.  I find that I learn most from others' who are willing to share their experiences and help me to learn that which corresponds to reality.

deltarho

[deltarho]

To be really good at anything, I think you have to be "gifted" (or have innate qualities).   However, I don't believe people without innate leadership qualities are doomed to failure, but I don't believe they'll ever be a CEO.

Co60Slr,

Thank you for you passionate and apparently honest post.  As you pointed out, and I hope I highlighted, you don't know what you are talking about--you have no proof.  Before you get your panties in a gather, I pointed out in a previous post all of our posts have been anecdotal.  Where's the hard data that proves leadership is innate, or for that matter--not?  Without hard data, the innate camp has failed to provide any compelling support.  However, whenever the not innate camp brings a little scholarship to the table, the best response from the innate camp is to attack the character of the other, not the information.  

I never wrote that I was right, but I did write that your argument was flawed because the foundation of your argument was flawed.  Did that make you wrong?  Yes.  Did that make me right by proxy? Maybe in your economy, but not mine--you were simply flawed in your thinkinking, and I showed you why I believed so.  

As an aside, your tone about Jesus Christ makes me wonder about the motivation behind your use of "Sic Transit Gloria Mundi;" at this moment I believe you are being sarcastic.

deltarho

[DDMurray]

Master Chief,

I'm sorry if I offended you in some way, and I have to believe I have because HydroDave63, for example, has written much more cogently on subjects far more diverse than leadership, and although I did only a cursory search, I cannot find an instance in which you besmirched his intentions or intimated he was a showoff.

Perhaps the answer to "why did he try to flame me?" is in your post.  I'm guessing you hastily skimmed through what I wrote instead of perusing it because I clearly wrote in the first paragraph that I disagreed with Co60Slr's argument, and gave supporting reasons to boot. 

As to the nature of the rest of my post, to date all of our arguments have been anecdotal.  I believe providing information that frames my view is an act of humility, making me vulnerable, and can only enrich the conversation and promote dialogue; it gives others opportunities to find holes in my thinking and to challenge my assertions.  I find that I learn most from others' who are willing to share their experiences and help me to learn that which corresponds to reality.

deltarho

1. Please don't call me Master Chief.  I retired 2 years ago tomorrow.

2. No offense taken.  I read your reference to an author I've never heard of and noticed how your post was written in a scholarly manner.  To me that was showing off so I tried to call you on it.

3. I disagree with you (or your pal Foucault) that people allow others to have power over them.  In any hierarchy of an organization, there will be power based on position. 

To quote myself:
(from 6/1/2009)
"Leadership according to Murray.  There are three general types of nukes in the navy.
1.  Strong work ethic, raised that any job worth doing is worth doing right.  They'll do well no matter what.
2.  Guy (or gal) that doesn't like what they're doing, but they care enough about their peers, that they don't want to bag them so they'll do the right thing most of the time.
3.  Guy doesn't like what he's doing and he'll do the right thing to minimize any pain that falling short of expectations will bring, so they'll reluctantly do the right thing, especially when watched.

There are some people that are combinations and some that are motivated by recognition, but people generally fall into one of these categories.  Our job as leaders is to turn people into # 1 or at least get the most out of their talents.  If you can get someone to see the reasons for doing things right, they are much more likely to grow into it vice the "my way or the highway" mentality. "

I don't need a professor or an author to confirm my belief because, quite frankly, I know I'm right

[co60slr]

I never wrote that I was right, but I did write that your argument was flawed because the foundation of your argument was flawed.  Did that make you wrong?  Yes. 

Leadership = Results.  Meanwhile, keep talking in circles.   It'll impress someone in the non-nuclear community.

[JsonD13]

Leadership = Results.  Meanwhile, keep talking in circles.   It'll impress someone in the non-nuclear community.

Yep so true.  Too bad the guys on the bottom and the guys over you usually have two different expectations of what "results" are.

Jason

[deltarho]

If you can get someone to see the reasons for doing things right, they are much more likely to grow into it vice the "my way or the highway" mentality. "

I don't need a professor or an author to confirm my belief because, quite frankly, I know I'm right

Two things:

(1)  Although this may be taken the wrong way, I am gambling that you live by your own "belief" and want to achieve number one on your list of three; after all, when you sought a scholarly reference on the subject of leadership, you cited yourself.

    I won't bore you with the long story of how it derailed my credibility with a V. P., but now that you are almost two years out of the military, you need to strike the word "vice" as a synonym for versus or instead of.  Check all the dictionaries you wish, you may think it is a conspiracy; but chalk it up to military speak or jargon that has become ingrained in our vocabulary.

(2)  I am not quite sure you were communicating effectively or were trying to be polite by appearing humble because, as the receiver, I am confused. No matter how many times I read your final line, you have contradicted yourself.  You wrote that you "don't need a professor or an author to confirm my belief because, quite frankly, I know I'm right."  Which is correct?

[co60slr]

Too bad the guys on the bottom and the guys over you usually have two different expectations of what "results" are.

That's the heart of leadership.   How YOU (i.e., me, we, etc) learns to deal with this exact situation, and do it successfully is the key to success.

Then, just when you have your niche figured out, you get transferred into a new culture and you get to start all over again.

Perhaps the true leader can step into various situations regardless of the "curve balls" his boss or subordinates throw at him.  In my experience, someone is always challenging you.

[co60slr]

Two things:

(1)  Although this may be taken the wrong way, I am gambling that you live by your own "belief" and want to achieve number one on your list of three; after all, when you sought a scholarly reference on the subject of leadership, you cited yourself.

     I won't bore you with the long story of how it derailed my credibility with a V. P., but now that you are almost two years out of the military, you need to strike the word "vice" as a synonym for versus or instead of.  Check all the dictionaries you wish, you may think it is a conspiracy; but chalk it up to military speak or jargon that has become ingrained in our vocabulary.

(2)  I am not quite sure you were communicating effectively or were trying to be polite by appearing humble because, as the receiver, I am confused. No matter how many times I read your final line, you have contradicted yourself.  You wrote that you "don't need a professor or an author to confirm my belief because, quite frankly, I know I'm right."  Which is correct?

Three more things:

1.  It's no longer clear to me why a ETCS, early retiree working at Phillip Morris, USA is trolling this nuclear leadership thread with his psychobabble savant leadership. 

2.  It's not clear what Phillip Morris has taught the ETCS such that he feels he can come back to nuclear and critique people that advanced farther in the military than he did.  Although, being promoted to E-8 at 11 years is very respectable...which I assume was done without your savant leadership babble.  I don't know of any CGN Chiefs or Officers that would have listened to your crap.

3.  You have forgotten your nuclear roots in how to argue with actual facts.   Your best shot here continues to simply be "you're wrong" without any basis.  Perhaps that works when you're making cigarettes, but not when controlling fission.

So for any other 3000 viewers to this looking to get into non-nuclear (e.g., Phillip Morris) perhaps DeltaRho can help you out.

[deltarho]

Three more things:

1.  It's no longer clear to me why a ETCS, early retiree working at Phillip Morris, USA is trolling this nuclear leadership thread with his psychobabble savant leadership.  

2.  It's not clear what Phillip Morris has taught the ETCS such that he feels he can come back to nuclear and critique people that advanced farther in the military than he did.  Although, being promoted to E-8 at 11 years is very respectable...which I assume was done without your savant leadership babble.  I don't know of any CGN Chiefs or Officers that would have listened to your crap.

3.  You have forgotten your nuclear roots in how to argue with actual facts.   Your best shot here continues to simply be "you're wrong" without any basis.  Perhaps that works when you're making cigarettes, but not when controlling fission.

So for any other 3000 viewers to this looking to get into non-nuclear (e.g., Phillip Morris) perhaps DeltaRho can help you out.

Co60Slr,

Did my previous mentioning of Jesus Christ in a reverential way get you so riled that you feel compelled to answer for others, and by intimating that I wrote things that I clearly did not?

At any rate, once might be attributable to the fat finger effect, a typographical error; thrice, however, must be point to something else: The proper spelling is Philip, using one "l."  Additionally, I'm of the impression that you are not one to use words without knowing their meanings or to throw them around carelessly, but your context of "psychobabble savant" seems to be an oxymoron.  On the other hand, using the tone and the content of your posts directed to me, I could make a mental leap that you had no intention of complimenting me; therefore, my only conclusion is that this is an obvious mistake, but not one attributable to the fat finger effect.  Using the only clues you have provided, I wonder whether you suffer from dyslexia, which must have been very difficult for you.  I shared about servant leadership; but when you mocked me, you wrote [ui]savant[/ui] leadership.  Looking back at my previous posts, I still don't understand how what I wrote could be interpreted by you as I would look down on you for your learning disorder.  I think it is now widely known it is not caused by low intelligence or brain damage, but that may not have been the case when you were growing up.  I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Also, as the forum's Master-at-Arms, please point me to the section that delineates how I am violating the rules of membership of this forum.  I want to get into compliance.

deltarho

[co60slr]

Also, as the forum's Master-at-Arms, please point me to the section that delineates how I am violating the rules of membership of this forum.  I want to get into compliance.

It's not my website, nor do I serve any staff function.

Enjoy your cigarette manufacturing leadership.   I'll stick to nuclear.

Post away...mystery solved.  I'm out.

Co58

[DDMurray]

Two things:
(1)  Although this may be taken the wrong way, I am gambling that you live by your own "belief" and want to achieve number one on your list of three; after all, when you sought a scholarly reference on the subject of leadership, you cited yourself.

Changes italicized
Your "Two things" were actually three.

I was not trying to provide a scholarly reference.  I was trying to point out what I had said about leadership on NW a year an a half ago.  It was based on my experience in the Navy.  Whether you think leadership ability is innate or a learned trait, if you are responsible for a division or department, you recognize that people are motivated by different things.  You've also got a job to do.  Over time you and your people are better off if they do the right thing on their own - it doesn't matter if you've taught them or they already had that trait as part of their character.

    I won't bore you with the long story of how it derailed my credibility with a V. P., but now that you are almost two years out of the military, you need to strike the word "vice" as a synonym for versus or instead of.  Check all the dictionaries you wish, you may think it is a conspiracy; but chalk it up to military speak or jargon that has become ingrained in our vocabulary.

From a reference  I found via google.  There are others.

vice⁴
prep
instead of; as a substitute for
[from Latin, ablative of vicis change]
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

If your credibility was derailed over the supposed misuse of a word, the V.P. sounds narrow-minded to me.  You are correct.  That story would bore me.

(2)  I am not quite sure you were communicating effectively or were trying to be polite by appearing humble because, as the receiver, I am confused. No matter how many times I read your final line, you have contradicted yourself.  You wrote that you "don't need a professor or an author to confirm my belief because, quite frankly, I know I'm right."  Which is correct?

Both.
I don't need an author or professor to confirm my belief -AND-
I know I'm right.

Look, I spent 24+ years in the Navy, over half of them in leadership positions.  I've been to leadership schools, I've read books on leadership, and I've observed good and bad leaders.  I made plenty of mistakes, but I also did some things right.  In the Navy the best leaders were the ones that were technically competent, trained their men on "the why" as well as "the how", and combined mission accomplishment with an earnest desire to look out for their people.  In my two years in civilian nuclear power, all that experience helped me get my foot in the door, and that's it.... so far.  The OP's original question was how would leadership training pad his resume.  It's led to this pretty long thread about 1001 ways to skin a cat.  I was wrong to call you out in the manner I did, regardless of how much I disagreed with your post.  For that I apologize.

Let me close with (from despair.com):

Motivation
If a pretty poster and a cute saying are all it takes to motivate you, you probably have a very easy job. The kind robots will be doing soon.

[OldHP]

Quote from: deltarho on Today at 17:01
Also, as the forum's Master-at-Arms, please point me to the section that delineates how I am violating the rules of membership of this forum.  I want to get into compliance.

Seems like someone should be reminded of the old adage:

Lead ... Follow ... or Get Out of the Way!

[Sun Dog]

Oh great...is this headline a vote for the innate trait camp or the learned trait camp...or is it all inane?

Faith Stressed As Key Leadership Component at Governor's Prayer Breakfast


http://ozarksfirst.com/fulltext/?nxd_id=381776

[deltarho]

Both.
I don't need an author or professor to confirm my belief -AND-
I know I'm right.

DD,

I'm sorry; you misunderstood what it was I misunderstood about which of the two were true.  You did write it again, so it was not a mistake, but still confusing as to which you mean to convey.  I'll specify my points of confusion this time.

Your use of belief and right contradict each other.  Using the Encarta Dictionary--Belief: acceptance by the mind that something is true or real, often underpinned by an emotional or spiritual sense of certainty versus Right: accurate, or consistent with the facts or general belief.  You expressed no desire for validation from those outside from your own mind that your belief system has merit.  This stance begs the question: How can you know you are right?

[co60slr]

This stance begs the question: How can you know you are right?

Navy Promotion boards, 30+ years of tried/true leadership experience, and commercial nuclear management.

You continue to talk from books, while many people are talking from decades of experience.

You do what works to sell cigarettes to children and let the real leaders/managers handle nuclear power.  You have yet to provide ANY examples of how your hocus-pocus psycho babble is applied with success to YOUR workplace.   Meanwhile, you continue to pick other forum members apart.   You may say you were a SCPO, but I think that was only E-8.

[deltarho]

It's not my website, nor do I serve any staff function.

Enjoy your cigarette manufacturing leadership.   I'll stick to nuclear.

Post away...mystery solved.  I'm out.

Co58

Co60Slr,

In your last uncharacteristically taciturn post, you raised a very interesting distinction of leadership skill requirements.  My experience finds the degree of difficulty leading those in a manufacturing or factory environment versus what I had to deal with in the nuclear navy is markedly more difficult, requiring greater leadership savvy.  I feel qualified to make this anecdotal remark because, in addition to my current employment, I have also worked for Tyson Foods, Reynolds Metals Company, and Anheuser-Busch (as a weekend group maintenance manager because they brew 365 days a year)

Concerning diversity, both camps have their fair share; but, not all things are equal.  I'm sure you can imagine how bell curves "A" and "B" for employee intelligence (civilian factory or manufacturing worker versus nuclear navy sailor), for example, would look; the mean for the hourly factory or manufacturing worker is noticeably lower and the range much wider than you would find in the nuclear navy.  After all, there is no NFQT to make cigarettes, brew beer, roll aluminum foil, or process chicken.  Moreover, the control inherent in the military structure is not interwoven within the culture of the corporate environment, especially when a labor union is involved. 

You were spot on when you intimated there is a different level of leadership skills required of a leader to possess and employ on a daily basis when comparing manufacturing and nuclear environments.  The nuclear navy leader probably has little or no experience transforming the workplace of intellectually diverse and practically Teflon-coated employees (union representation) into an environment where everyone is expected to be personally involved, responsible, and accountable for their performance, decisions, and behavior while effecting measurable bottom-line results, including (a) new product launches, (b) decreasing time to market, (c) completing additional projects on or before schedule, and (d) obtaining a higher revenue and improved profitability to provide value to shareholders and other stakeholders.  These are my daily leadership challenges.  I've seen other ex-military leaders come and go because these challenges are outside their comfort zone.  None of those were of the ilk of some of those staunch nuclear leaders on this forum, those who are embedded in particular leadership styles or apparently stuck in their single-minded approaches.

Imagine the difficulties of the nuclear leader and their daily struggles; they are used to dealing with others of their own caliber, for the most part their contemporaries, and to the fewer tools required in the leadership toolbox that such unique conditions, such as the nuclear field, allow.  I cannot speak about the nuclear commercial environment, and I make no comparisons by proxy.  It was I who had be willing to be open to new ideas or perish in the corporate environment.

If you are willing to provide a rational discussion instead of a diatribe of insults, I will be willing to entertain any opposing views.

deltarho

[co60slr]

My experience finds the degree of difficulty leading those in a manufacturing or factory environment versus what I had to deal with in the nuclear navy is markedly more difficult, requiring greater leadership savvy.  

This is the first practical thing you've said...and more useful to Navy: Getting Out.

Yes, dealing with a division of 12 ET2s on a CGN is MUCH different than dealing with 500 high school graduates who are salary employees that don't care about your books.  Agreed!  Send your brightest, sharpest nuke to manage a division of BM3s for a month with the requirement that he can't take anyone to Captain's Mast and he still has to complete the Ship's Mission.  THAT is a test of true Leadership.

Now...if we could just get you to put away the soap box and say something useful about YOUR experience.  Most of us that have actually spent some time in Leadership/Management roles know that you can't rely on books to solve your problems...especially with large divisions of people (as you're suggesting).

Also, in light of evidence to the contrary, I'm not here to debate anything with you.  There are now 5126 views to this thread.  There are Navy: Getting Out viewers here looking for information about commercial nuclear and about non-nuclear.  Why don't you give them some non-nuclear tools to consider in their "getting out" endeavors?  How about some examples of what you went through in YOUR transition, what you've learned now, and what people should consider in exploring a non-nuclear career.

[deltarho]

This is the first practical thing you've said...and more useful to Navy: Getting Out.

Yes, dealing with a division of 12 ET2s on a CGN is MUCH different than dealing with 500 high school graduates who are salary employees that don't care about your books. 

You cannot seem to stay in the positive affirmation zone with me.  It's obvious you have never been on a CGN because you do not know the typical size of the Reactor Controls Division.  Moreover, as a leader on a CGN, I had to deal with the department when I stood EWS and EDPO; thus, I had to deal with the temperaments and personalities of all the rates.  Also, as the 06A, which is similar to the Bull Nuke on the boats, I was more so expected to groom all the junior officers of the Engineering Department (both nuke and non-nuke) than when I was LCPO of a Reactor Controls Division primarily responsible for the care and feeding of two CPOs, a DIVO, and almost 30 Twiggets.

Also, I have no experience with the demographic you mentioned, dealing with such a large group as 500 high school graduates--salary or hourly. You stated as if you know from experience or from, dare say, reading a book or books that compared to dealing with an undersized nuclear cruiser Reactor Controls Division it is "MUCH different than [sic] dealing with 500 high school graduates who are salary employees that don't care about your books."  Will you please elucidate your point with three specific examples of how so?  Also, what survey instrument did you use or refer to determine whether a group of this size with similar backgrounds would or would not be amenable to books about leadership?  So far, your modus operandi has been to throw around a cubic ton of statements as facts or commonly held beliefs--sans substantiation.  Are you averse to providing credible resources?

[deltarho]

I cannot speak about the nuclear commercial environment, and I make no comparisons by proxy. 

deltarho

[Marlin]

Trying to think of the best way to word this question... Been reading a lot of books from the Management/Leadership shelf at the bookstore over the last couple years.  Some of the ones I've found to be the most useful:

"The Carrot Principle"
"The No Asshole Rule"
"High Output Management" with follow-up reading on "constructive confrontation"
"Failing Forward"
"The No Complaining Rule"
"101 Tough Conversations to have with Employees"

I've been the LPO on my last boat, at NPTU, and on my current boat.  I've received a NAM for what I accomplished at NPTU while being the LPO and was made the Sailor of the Quarter last month (was told that I would have been Sailor of the Year if I had been on board for longer).  I'm thinking next year is my year to make Chief.

My question is if all of the books I've read, and will read, are intangible? (Nothing that can be put in a resume but would pay off later while actually in the workplace)  And if my Navy accolades in leadership will simply be a single resume bullet?  In other words, is there some sort of certificate in leadership or management?  Is what I'm driving at a degree in human resources?

Any help would be appreciated.

  I thought I would back this back up to the beginning. I don't think anything I will say is new to this thread other than it is my personal experience with leadership and how your Navy leadership accolades may transfer to the civilian world.
  I found that my supervisory/management/leadership skills (LELT/EWS) were well respected by those who knew what they were. Military leadership awards or training outside of the training that officers received was not held in high esteem even by those who knew what it was. Companies frequently have "Spoon and Fork" training for supervision that promotes the management style that the company wants to foster, normally focusing on supervision of hourly workers.
  What I have found useful to me practically that cannot be presented as a credential was the "Tribal Knowledge" I gained by watching successful managers and the less talented Chiefs and Officers. What I took from all of this was some very simple rules. The most effective managers were respected whether you liked them or not. They also had a very good balance of responsibility to authority, they used their authority only as it was needed to perform their responsibilities but were not afraid to do so. I found the louder the Chief the less secure he really was (and less respected), the chief I respected most said the least but when he did talk you had best be listening. Officers I respected most again focused on their responsibilities and not their own egos and listened more than they spoke. You can be taught all day to regurgitate the management mantra of the day but comprehension is something else. Respect is also gained in technical fields through technical expertice or ability to operate in a technical environment up to a point. Promotions to management positions are frequently gained for "people skills" as much or more than technical skills particularly in diverse technical fields, for example a Vice President of Environmental Safety and Health at a DOE facility may be in charge of QA, RadCon, IH, Environmental, and possibly even Security Forces in smaller facilities, putting you in charge of disciplines you are not an expert in.

  If you want a credential that will be respected by the commercial world you will need to get one they recognize. Many engineers follow up their technical degrees with a masters in business.

  As to the innate issue, there are people who gather followers, for good or bad, whether they intend to or not. Honing those attributes with further education is allways a good thing.

[co60slr]

I had to deal with the department when I stood EWS and EDPO; thus, I had to deal with the temperaments and personalities of all the rates.  Also, as the 06A, which is similar to the Bull Nuke on the boats, I was more so expected to groom all the junior officers of the Engineering Department (both nuke and non-nuke) than when I was LCPO of a Reactor Controls Division primarily responsible for the care and feeding of two CPOs, a DIVO, and almost 30 Twiggets.

That's it?  Nice list of responsibilities, but no results listed though.  I didn't see EOOW or OOD listed.  Hard to imagine why an E-8 with extraordinary leadership skills would sunset his whopping 11 year career writing QA packages vice operating a plant and training Navy Nukes (e.g., prototype duty). 

Meanwhile, we're still waiting to hear what you've done since and how you plan to use this fancy graduate certificate.  While you continue the fine art of deflection in your communication, this is YOUR argument with "us" just waiting to hear any facts from you.  Every time someone asks you a question, you drop a $0.25 word out of the dictionary and quote some unknown author from your books.  Then you proceed to attack the person asking the question while you so calmly stay in your "positive affirmation zone".   

Perhaps those tricks work at Phillip Morris USA.  Your company is pretty good at dancing around public relation issues.  Hard to ignore the number of deaths your products have, and continue to cause though.  I can easily see how your "skills" are invaluable to a cancer-causing company.

How are you doing at finding one leader "produced" from your graduate school?  (5th request). 

[Cycoticpenguin]

Debate Hitler or just whip'em out and post your measurements.

Either way, that is where this conversations is headed. 

Hahaha

[Fermi2]

Debate Hitler or just whip'em out and post your measurements.

Either way, that is where this conversations is headed. 

LMAO!!!!

[DDMurray]

DD,

I'm sorry; you misunderstood what it was I misunderstood about which of the two were true.  You did write it again, so it was not a mistake, but still confusing as to which you mean to convey.  I'll specify my points of confusion this time.

Your use of belief and right contradict each other.  Using the Encarta Dictionary--Belief: acceptance by the mind that something is true or real, often underpinned by an emotional or spiritual sense of certainty versus Right: accurate, or consistent with the facts or general belief.  You expressed no desire for validation from those outside from your own mind that your belief system has merit.  This stance begs the question: How can you know you are right?

Wow.  Since you use "belief" to define "right", it appears to me that they do not necessarily contradict each other.

How do I know that I am right?  Let me provide four examples.  Granted these are not scholarly references vetted through academia, but they are true life examples from guys that I was in charge of or worked for.

1.  Mike served under me for about two years.  He was a superstar.  He did things right all the time.  I was lucky to have had him in my division.  I transferred from the command when Mike was an E-5.  About 4 years later I got a call from Mike asking me if I had an extra set of Chief's anchors that I would give to him.  His CMC tasked him with trying to get anchors for his pinning day from the CPO that he most wanted to emulate when he made Chief. 

2.  Jim served under me for three years.  He was a "pretty boy".  He didn't like being told what to do and was a chronic whiner.  I frequently had to pull him aside and explain the facts of life to him.  Jim was a six and outer.  After he'd been out of the Navy for 5 years Jim sent me an e-mail, thanking me for not putting up with his Sh*^.  He said his experience as a nuke and strong leaders like me that kept him in check were the springboards for a successful career once he got out of the Navy.  He also apologized for being a pain in the butt.

3.  Daren served under me for two years.  He was a great worker, but had some marital difficulties and hadn't done well enough to get screened for instructor duty.  I worked with the detailer and got him orders to new construction.  When he got there he wrote me complaining about being the 4th or 5th first class in the division.  I told him not to worry, because once the real work started, his COC would see his work ethic and he would quickly become a leader at the command.  His wife wrote me about six months later thanking me for my vote of confidence.  Daren had been selected as LPO over senior guys.  He later made LDO.  He couldn't make it to my retirement, but wrote me a nice e-mail thanking me for the influence I had on his career, summarizing it best by stating, "When faced with a tough decision, I always ask myself what would EMC M do."

4. Mark was one of my COs.  He didn't like me, at first.  In fact, he wrote me the worst FitRep I had as a CPO.  He frequently questioned my decision-making and actually said to me once, "Quite honestly I don't know why you came here so highly recommended."  I stuck to my guns (beliefs, if you will, because I knew I was right).  After another year at his command, I made E-8, despite the poor FitRep.  After my pinning, he had me in his stateroom and basically said what a relief it was to him that I had advanced because he had me pegged all wrong and now recognized that I deserved a better FitRep than he had given me the previous year.  A year after that as he was getting ready to transfer, he pulled out a 3 X 5 card that he kept on each of us and went down the list of challenges I had faced.  He basically said, "You handled all these way better than I gave you credit for."  If you knew him, that's the closest thing to a compliment you could ever receive.

So even though I have no scholar to confirm my beliefs about leadership and there are many who would say I fell short in a number of areas, I obviously influenced those who worked with me, mostly in a positive manner.   So question the quality of my writing, dissect my use of the English language, and impugn my motives for tooting my own horn all you want.  I try to write like I talk (something I learned from a college professor) and recognize that not everyone cares about my accomplishments, or lack thereof.  Your critiques of my writing and leadership beliefs are accepted as, "We'll have to agree to disagree." 

I know this is long-winded, but I can't help but draw the parallel between your seemingly never-ending desire to discredit me, or my opinion, based on the syntax of my writing and the leaders inside and outside the Navy who think the manner in which a message is delivered is more important than the message itself.

[deltarho]

That's it?  Nice list of responsibilities, but no results listed though.  I didn't see EOOW or OOD listed.  Hard to imagine why an E-8 with extraordinary leadership skills would sunset his whopping 11 year career writing QA packages vice operating a plant and training Navy Nukes (e.g., prototype duty). 

Meanwhile, we're still waiting to hear what you've done since and how you plan to use this fancy graduate certificate.  While you continue the fine art of deflection in your communication, this is YOUR argument with "us" just waiting to hear any facts from you.  Every time someone asks you a question, you drop a $0.25 word out of the dictionary and quote some unknown author from your books.  Then you proceed to attack the person asking the question while you so calmly stay in your "positive affirmation zone".   

Perhaps those tricks work at Phillip Morris USA.  Your company is pretty good at dancing around public relation issues.  Hard to ignore the number of deaths your products have, and continue to cause though.  I can easily see how your "skills" are invaluable to a cancer-causing company.

How are you doing at finding one leader "produced" from your graduate school?  (5th request). 

Co60Slr,

Your post is once again rife with incorrect information about me: Perhaps my use of Proverbs 15:1 is a little off.  I will need to work on that. 

Where or who are you getting your information from?  Do you really not care to have your ducks in a row, your information more than remotely correct before you attempt to pass it off as gospel?  Your intent seems rather transparent at this point, and by your tactics I see you're a one trick pony--the end justifies the means.  I could provide you a detailed autobiography; however, I am convinced you would find a way to misconstrue it, and then throw back cobbled mistruths at your pleasure to meet your most pressing needs. 

I must ask: Were you the guy that everyone on the boat spun up for entertainment on long deployments, and now you are taking it out on me?

[Marlin]

 

[deltarho]

Wow.  Since you use “belief” to define “right”, it appears to me that they do not necessarily contradict each other.

From years of reading RPMs, words and their order mean something.  For example, in the definition where I included the word belief, the word "general" preceded it--makes all the difference.

[Marlin]

 

[DDMurray]

From years of reading RPMs, words and their order mean something.  For example, in the definition where I included the word belief, the word "general" preceded it--makes all the difference.

So you're saying that it's not a general belief that a leader should aspire to train his subordinates the reason behind their actions?

So you're saying it's not a general belief that if you have guys working for you that could care less about the "whys" so long as they get a paycheck that you, as a leader, should still try and get the most from their talents?

So you're saying that it's not a general belief that some subordinates are motivated by their desire to fit in with their peers, so they'll comply with leadership/management expectations so that they don't bag their buddies?  When I say bag, I don't mean literally throw in a bag.  I mean carry some fair share of the workload so their buddies are not burdened with additional work because of them.

[co60slr]

Were you the guy that everyone on the boat spun up for entertainment on long deployments, and now you are taking it out on me?

I have no idea what this question even means, nor do I understand what correlation you're trying to make between a deployment and an Internet forum.  However, you repeatedly point out how each of us in this thread is completely wrong and when challenged your last line of defense is to whine?  Is that an innate trait or is there a book on the reverse psychology that you're attempting?

I'm sorry to you (and apparently HydroDave)...but as you repeatedly tell us all how we're all wrong, are we supposed to just say "ok" without question?

I've never met a good leader that whines.   Sorry, I don't have a reference for that.

Co58

[Marlin]

   

[HydroDave63]

I've never met a good leader that whines.   Sorry, I don't have a reference for that.

Didn't you just whine about a smite?

[Fermi2]

As anyone who knows the history to this forum will attest CoSlr60 have not had the easiest time playing nice with each other but after getting to know him (a exchanging countless IMs when we should be doing something else (a process with can be justified as long distance mentoring) I'm certain he wasn't the guy who people spun up just to do it. I doubt it'd be that simple. Having parried many times with him over this forum I'm pretty convinced he could have aid the verbal smackdown in a way a mere mortal would be wounded.

As for effective leaders. I've had a LOT of peers and bosses tell me I'm a very effective leader. Not sure why though. I recently changed shifts and a operator told me I was the best manager of any type he's had in his 30 year career. Again, leadership is an innate trait. It can't be learned but effective leaders quickly learn to chameleonize effective traits fro other effective leaders. Over 26 years going back to the Navy I've been in a leadership position for maybe 22 of those years and like DD I have a LOT of snail mail and email from guys thanking them for something I taught them or demanded they improve upon and when they took my demand and turned it into action they did see marked improvement in their ability. Like DD I have empathy but will not accept excuses from anyone as to why they cannot be a responsible adult and worker of the nuclear state. In my mind it's a simple matter really.

[Gamecock]

I've never met a good leader that whines.   Sorry, I don't have a reference for that.

Co58

I do....

See Phil 2:14

Cheers,
GC

[OldHP]

As anyone who knows the history to this forum will attest CoSlr60 have not had the easiest time playing nice with each other but after getting to know him (a exchanging countless IMs when we should be doing something else (a process with can be justified as long distance mentoring) I'm certain he wasn't the guy who people spun up just to do it. I doubt it'd be that simple. Having parried many times with him over this forum I'm pretty convinced he could have aid the verbal smackdown in a way a mere mortal would be wounded.

A little quick on the keys - after being thanked for the grammer lessons in another topic?

[co60slr]

 

[HydroDave63]

I'm sorry to you (and apparently HydroDave)...but as you repeatedly tell us all how we're all wrong, are we supposed to just say "ok" without question?

The irony being, I agreed with the logic in your reply #96 and the bell curve if we could quantify successful leadership. DDMurray's reply #125 is awesome and should be sticky somehow for signs of self-motivating leaders. My only action point was that the haranguing on the "cigarettes to children" ad hominem is a weak way to handle a debate, and the quarreling is drowning out pages of good solid points (your own included) for future viewers. Perahps we can "lead" this to a productive ending?

[co60slr]

My only action point was that the haranguing on the "cigarettes to children" ad hominem is a weak way to handle a debate, and the quarreling is drowning out pages of good solid points (your own included) for future viewers. Perahps we can "lead" this to a productive ending?

Weak debate?
http://www.tobaccofreekids.org/research/factsheets/pdf/philipmorris.pdf

Look at all those executive leadership quotes, with references.   Where do us Nukes get some of THAT leadership?  Oh wait...we just send in a self-addressed, stamped envelope and "they" will mail us our "graduate certificate" in "leadership".   Damn...that was easy.   When does my cape arrive?

Who's next on the Leadership SoapBox?   Anyone from Fanny Mae want to chime into Nukeworker on Financial Leadership on Wall St?  "You know...if you Nuke Boys did your nuclear risk assessment like we do our financial risk assessment, you'd all be INPO-1 right now raking in 6-digit bonuses."

[Marlin]

At least you noticed a somewhat gentle nudge to civil debate and respect for the author of the thread looking for information.

[co60slr]

At least you noticed a somewhat gentle nudge to civil debate and respect for the author of the thread looking for information.

I believed the author was "looking for information"....until this point in the thread:
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,26372.msg135825.html#msg135825

The problem with Internet Forums (IMHO) is that people tend to look for answers they were expecting to find, and then it becomes the "dog with a bone" syndrome.   99 people can disagree, but when 1 validates...."success!".   No...#Fail.

So, no...I didn't see a "gentle nudge" or a 2x4 across my forehead for that matter.   I do see many postings on NW.com where an OP asks a question where a dozen NW.com members debate for weeks....only to find the OP never returned again to post a reply, question, or thank you.

Secretly, it's rumored that the "word is on the street":  If you're bored, go lob a dumb question to NW.com and watch the fireworks ensue for weeks.  Plenty of Ego to go around.

Otherwise, it seems that the most serious work/help here on NW.com happens on PM.  So, if you've asked a serious question and didn't get a PM from a helpful member...then take the hint.   Much like real life, I'd wager.

[Contract SRO]

Co60Slr,

In your last uncharacteristically taciturn post, you raised a very interesting distinction of leadership skill requirements.  My experience finds the degree of difficulty leading those in a manufacturing or factory environment versus what I had to deal with in the nuclear navy is markedly more difficult, requiring greater leadership savvy.  I feel qualified to make this anecdotal remark because, in addition to my current employment, I have also worked for Tyson Foods, Reynolds Metals Company, and Anheuser-Busch (as a weekend group maintenance manager because they brew 365 days a year)

Concerning diversity, both camps have their fair share; but, not all things are equal.  I'm sure you can imagine how bell curves "A" and "B" for employee intelligence (civilian factory or manufacturing worker versus nuclear navy sailor), for example, would look; the mean for the hourly factory or manufacturing worker is noticeably lower and the range much wider than you would find in the nuclear navy.  After all, there is no NFQT to make cigarettes, brew beer, roll aluminum foil, or process chicken.  Moreover, the control inherent in the military structure is not interwoven within the culture of the corporate environment, especially when a labor union is involved. 

You were spot on when you intimated there is a different level of leadership skills required of a leader to possess and employ on a daily basis when comparing manufacturing and nuclear environments.  The nuclear navy leader probably has little or no experience transforming the workplace of intellectually diverse and practically Teflon-coated employees (union representation) into an environment where everyone is expected to be personally involved, responsible, and accountable for their performance, decisions, and behavior while effecting measurable bottom-line results, including (a) new product launches, (b) decreasing time to market, (c) completing additional projects on or before schedule, and (d) obtaining a higher revenue and improved profitability to provide value to shareholders and other stakeholders.  These are my daily leadership challenges.  I've seen other ex-military leaders come and go because these challenges are outside their comfort zone.  None of those were of the ilk of some of those staunch nuclear leaders on this forum, those who are embedded in particular leadership styles or apparently stuck in their single-minded approaches.

Imagine the difficulties of the nuclear leader and their daily struggles; they are used to dealing with others of their own caliber, for the most part their contemporaries, and to the fewer tools required in the leadership toolbox that such unique conditions, such as the nuclear field, allow.  I cannot speak about the nuclear commercial environment, and I make no comparisons by proxy.  It was I who had be willing to be open to new ideas or perish in the corporate environment.

If you are willing to provide a rational discussion instead of a diatribe of insults, I will be willing to entertain any opposing views.

deltarho

Just one question and one comment.  Are you by chance a U.S. congressman or senator?  This sounds like the kind of BS in Washington that keeps this country from doing what is right for the nation (it's citizen), and keeps a bunch of talking heads rambling for days and saying nothing with content.

[Nuclear NASCAR]

OK, this one has degraded enough that if it were a building it would be condemned.  I'm going to lock this one and if y'all want to talk about leadership rather than seeing who can puff their chest bigger you can start a new thread.