Potentially going into nuclear engineering?

[littlepistol]

Hey there! My name is Ashley and I'm currently a junior in high school. I currently have a 4.43 GPA and take all honors classes. After looking at my interests, I've decided to go into Engineering. I also have a high interest in science, physics in particular which has led me to Nuclear Engineering. I was going to get my Bachelor's Degree and go into the job after I got that but I was looking and all jobs are requiring about 4 years of experience that I obviously won't have, fresh out of college.

I was discussing it with my uncle and his friend and his friend said to check out nuclear engineering through the Navy as the carriers and submarines are powered through nuclear fission. Of course, being a junior in high school, I don't exactly understand all the terms even looking at the "code words" posted here on the forum.

I guess to shorten it, here's my questions:

1) Should I go into this field?
2) What's it like for a female nuke?
3) Should I get my degree in college then go into the Navy's program?
4) Carrier vs submarine conditions?
5) Is it worth it?
6) What are the basic steps to become a nuclear engineer on an aircraft carrier both if you get your degree or you go straight into the navy after high school?
7) What's the salary like vs a nuclear power plant?

Thank you guys very much! ~Ashley

[Hilariousity]

1) Should I go into this field?
2) What's it like for a female nuke?
3) Should I get my degree in college then go into the Navy's program?
4) Carrier vs submarine conditions?
5) Is it worth it?
6) What are the basic steps to become a nuclear engineer on an aircraft carrier both if you get your degree or you go straight into the navy after high school?
7) What's the salary like vs a nuclear power plant?

1) That's for you to decide. The first thing you need to understand is that there is a huge difference between designing nuclear reactors(being a nuclear engineer) and operating and maintaining a nuclear reactor(being a reactor operator)
2) I don't know I'm not a chick, but I guess some girls like being surrounded by dudes all day. Go figure
3)Studies have shown that immense amounts of stress involved in doing something like joining the Navy can be detrimental to a person's ability to learn in the long run. So, yes
4) You're a chick I'm not sure they'll even let you on a sub, yet.
5)It's a very hard job with very long hours with some very nice benefits. So maybe, that's to subjective of a question to answer
6)The things enlisted people do definitely don't count as engineering and I'm not sure if anything the officers do qualify as engineering either
7)You're cheaper then water.

Here are a couple things you might want to consider before joining the Navy
http://www.nrotc.navy.mil/scholarships.aspx
http://www.usna.edu/homepage.php

[HydroDave63]

Yes, females are currently serving on submarines.

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=77079

WASHINGTON (NNS) -- The fast attack submarines USS Virginia (SSN 774) and USS Minnesota (SSN 783) have been selected as the initial two Virginia-class submarines to integrate female officers, announced Oct. 15.

A total of six female officers, two Supply Corps and four nuclear-trained, will report aboard no later than January 2015. Both submarines are homeported in Groton, Conn.

"Female officers serving aboard Virginia-class submarines is the next natural step to more fully integrate women into the submarine force," said Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus. "There are many extremely talented and capable women with a desire to succeed in this field and the submarine force will be stronger because of their efforts. Our Navy has proven over the years that one of our greatest advantages is our diversity. This is an advantage we should capitalize on across all platforms, including submarines."

Since the Navy officially changed their policy prohibiting women serving on submarines on April 29, 2010, the submarine force has integrated 43 women onto six Ohio-class ballistic-missile (SSBN) and guided-missile submarines (SSGN). Further Virginia-class integration is being planned in the submarine force.


And our Nukeworker commentary thread is:

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,25368.0.html 

[MMM]

Hey there! My name is Ashley and I'm currently a junior in high school. I currently have a 4.43 GPA and take all honors classes. After looking at my interests, I've decided to go into Engineering. I also have a high interest in science, physics in particular which has led me to Nuclear Engineering. I was going to get my Bachelor's Degree and go into the job after I got that but I was looking and all jobs are requiring about 4 years of experience that I obviously won't have, fresh out of college.

I was discussing it with my uncle and his friend and his friend said to check out nuclear engineering through the Navy as the carriers and submarines are powered through nuclear fission. Of course, being a junior in high school, I don't exactly understand all the terms even looking at the "code words" posted here on the forum.

I guess to shorten it, here's my questions:

1) Should I go into this field?
2) What's it like for a female nuke?
3) Should I get my degree in college then go into the Navy's program?
4) Carrier vs submarine conditions?
5) Is it worth it?
6) What are the basic steps to become a nuclear engineer on an aircraft carrier both if you get your degree or you go straight into the navy after high school?
7) What's the salary like vs a nuclear power plant?

Thank you guys very much! ~Ashley

1) If you're interested in actual engineering, the navy nuclear program is not what you want, the enlisted are all technicians, the officers are supervisors/operators. The exception is if you can get into the NR program. Hopefully someone smarter and with more experience than me (Gamecock) will weigh in on this in the near future.
2) It depends. Most guys have the preconceived notion that the female nukes will do everything they can to get out of work and have everything handed to them on a silver plate. This means you'll have to work a bit harder to get respect initially, but once everyone sees you putting forth effort, all the attitudes change. I think the main reason for this is when I have a job on the ship and need a body, I call male berthing because that's where 95% of my division is, so the women don't get a chance.
3) Most everyone here will tell you to get your degree before you go in if you're able. It's not so much the stress affecting your ability to learn, it's more about the amount of time you'll have to finish the degree. What might take you an extra year in college might take 4-5 years because of underway time, qualifications, etc.
4) Carriers are way better. Daylight, internet, fresh food = all sorts of awesome. (Sub guys might disagree). Also, you will be able to take online college courses (to either finish your BS or work on a Master's) while underway. Also, we've been send female officers to subs for 3 years, I believe the navy will start sending senior enlisted females to subs in the next couple years, assuming they can find any.
5) I think so, and I would say even the 6 and out folks would agree that it's not a bad way to spend 6 years.
6) See #1.
7) To give you a little perspective: I just retired as a chief (E-7) after 20 years. Last year my total income was $84k ($60 taxable, $24k BAH/BAS). Assuming the BAH/BAS was taxed at 25%, my annual income would be $92k/year. Commercial plants pay somewhat more than that (although starting NLOs & ROs might have to do some overtime to get more).

[littlepistol]

I really appreciate your input, guys.

So from what I'm getting is I should basically stay with working at a plant?

@MMM, if you've been there for 20 years and your salary was just at 92k untaxed, is it an unrewarding job where you don't get promoted often?

[MMM]

I was a little slower to advance than others, bad career decisions on my part. I've seen nukes make chief in 8-10 years and master chief by 15. I also know guys that did 8 or 10 years and got a job in the commercial sector making 80k+ starting. However, I've found it very rewarding (otherwise I'd have gotten out years ago), plus there are several non-pay related benefits, and a pretty good retirement plan.

[littlepistol]

So were you just a technician or an operator? About what was your starting salary?

[cheme09]

Hey there! My name is Ashley and I'm currently a junior in high school. I currently have a 4.43 GPA and take all honors classes. After looking at my interests, I've decided to go into Engineering. I also have a high interest in science, physics in particular which has led me to Nuclear Engineering. I was going to get my Bachelor's Degree and go into the job after I got that but I was looking and all jobs are requiring about 4 years of experience that I obviously won't have, fresh out of college.

Your conclusion is a little off the mark. There will always be entry level positions that take engineers straight out of college. This is true for most engineering disciplines; nuclear engineerin included. I would suggest you really look into what a nuclear engineer really does. If you have an image in your head that a nuclear engineer works at a nuclear plant and does "plant engineering", then that's a little off the mark as well.

Try to tour a plant or some sort and ask about what the engineers there do (nuclear plant, coal plant, food factory, pharmacuetical plant, etc). If that type of job interests you I'd suggest you look into either mechanical engineering or chemical engineering. However, if you're really interested in how neutrons make atoms split apart, how to control a nuclear chain reaction, or running complex computer codes to simulate what would really happen in a reactor, then that is more like what a nuclear engineer does.

I don't know where you're located, but try to see if you can find a local ANS Chapter or AIChE Chapter and ask experienced engineers for advice. You could also look to your closest engineering school and look for student chapters of those same organizations.

Lastly, I suggested mechanical or chemical engineering because those two disciplines are the 2 most versatile discpilines that deal with mechanical things (fluid flow, heat transfer, etc); electrical engineerin is also very versatile. If you decide to get a nuclear degree, you more or less pigeon-hole yourself into the nuclear industry.

[MMM]

All enlisted nukes start off as both operators and maintenance technicians. Even on carriers we don't have the space for extra people, although we do use shipyard for major repairs.

As far as starting salary, that was 20 years ago and there have been multiple cost of living increases in that time. However, you can google military pay charts and get a good idea. To help, as a nuke you will be an E-3 through A school (about 6-9 months), then an E-4 through at least prototype (aka NPTU) (some people do make E-5 in the pipeline, but not often). The only extra pay you'll get through Power School is about $300/month BAS, once you get to prototype you'll get BAH to pay rent, you can also google BAH rates for Charleston, SC and Saratoga Springs, NY. After you graduate from NPTU you'll get your NEC and get $150/month propay. This does not include any bonuses for enlisting/reenlisting.

I would take cheme's advice and try to get a tour of a plant or talk to an engineer about what they actually do to make sure your perceptions match reality.

[spekkio]

I really appreciate your input, guys.

So from what I'm getting is I should basically stay with working at a plant?

@MMM, if you've been there for 20 years and your salary was just at 92k untaxed, is it an unrewarding job where you don't get promoted often?

Yea, in HS I had no perspective on money or income distribution, either.

Harsh reality: Median income in America with a 4-year degree is somewhere about $35k. $92k is top quintile territory. Most people who make $92k by the end of their careers are very successful at what they do. Come back down to earth before you make a derogatory comment, eh?

Now, you're talking engineering so if you can get the grades and demonstrate competency, you can probable be making $90-110k if you're good -- maybe more if you don't mind living in a place that is difficult to attract workers (e.g. North Dakota).

How to be good? Get A's (most important), get involved in engineering related clubs at your university, join engineering related social networks, and land a decent internship in your junior/senior year at college. If you do all that, you won't have a problem landing an entry-level job on the back end -- and it won't be a job listed in the back of the local paper.

If you are interested in actual engineering/design and join the sub/carrier force as a nuke, it will set you back 5 years in your engineering career. Also, STEM degrees have a shelf-life, so you'll also have to overcome being out of that game for at least 5 years.

As for nuclear engineering: My personal opinion is that you should heed cheme's advice and go for chem/mech/electrical engineering. If you haven't been following, nuke plants are shutting down at a faster rate than they are opening.

[MMM]

Since I'm bored, and tired of loading boxes into containers, here's the link to DFAS: http://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers/payentitlements/militarypaytables.html

Basically, until you're at NPTU, you're making 20k-25k per year. At NPTU you'll get an extra $1000 (SC) or $1200 (NY) per month for BAH, which covers rent/utilities usually.

I also have very little idea on income distribution. I just know what I need to make to take care of my family without getting a second job or forcing my wife to get one to make ends meat (I might be a bit of a chauvinist that way, I'm not sure).

[GLW]

Since I'm bored, and tired of loading boxes into containers, here's the link to DFAS: http://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers/payentitlements/militarypaytables.html

Basically, until you're at NPTU, you're making 20k-25k per year. At NPTU you'll get an extra $1000 (SC) or $1200 (NY) per month for BAH, which covers rent/utilities usually.

I also have very little idea on income distribution. I just know what I need to make to take care of my family without getting a second job or forcing my wife to get one to make ends meat (I might be a bit of a chauvinist that way, I'm not sure).

hey!!! 92K a year and cannot properly select which homophone of "mete" "meet" or "meat" to apply?,...

I love America!!!!!!

(sic),...4 beercourt,....

[MMM]

hey!!! 92K a year and cannot properly select which homophone of "mete" "meet" or "meat" to apply?,...

I love America!!!!!!

(sic),...4 beercourt,....

Homophones, homophones. Where the plane goes cruising down the plain.
Homophones, homophones. I need my kneaded biscuits plain!

Yeah, I've never seen it written before.

[littlepistol]

Yea, in HS I had no perspective on money or income distribution, either.

Harsh reality: Median income in America with a 4-year degree is somewhere about $35k. $92k is top quintile territory. Most people who make $92k by the end of their careers are very successful at what they do. Come back down to earth before you make a derogatory comment, eh?

Considering what those people have to do with that four year degree, the lowest 10 percent earned less than $68,940 and the top 10 percent earned more than $149,940. Obviously, that top 10 percent earns more due to degrees and experience but if someone's been doing it for 69k for 20 years, I would expect them to be at least average (about 80k) with their experience saying that this person is good at what they do. At least make a smart move to a better, higher paying job within that 20 years. With average pay that Duke gives to Level 1 engineers (80k) I'd expect to be at about 108k within twenty year or at least the average salary. Going back with masters and so on, I'd expect higher than that. It just seems like within such a profession where so much is on the line, they would get promotions and bonuses within that company, especially after 20 years. If nothing shows promise, I'd apply for a higher paying job, even out of state. Don't be so rude. Nothing about my comment was derogatory. Without knowing the base salary, I asked a question.

Why such a low income average? Probably because 70% of Americans don't even go to college or finish with a degree. After being to 14 different schools in my 15 year lifespan, I can see why. Most kids don't care.

Anyways, I wanted to once again thank you guys for helping me put into perspective just what I'm dealing with.

The reason I've considered Nuclear Engineer so much is because I live right next to a Duke Energy Nuclear plant (Huntersville, NC). They just hired on a few more engineers and have sponsored my high school's engineering team. Don't believe they're shutting down any time soon.

@MMM thank you for the link! Very helpful!

I'll probably end up following Cheme's advice as my father is friends with a Nuclear Engineer and I've been trying to get me set up where I could job shadow or something to that extent before I decide that's what I want my career to be.

One again, thank you guys! Super helpful!

[Marlin]

Considering what those people have to do with that four year degree, the lowest 10 percent earned less than $68,940 and the top 10 percent earned more than $149,940. Obviously, that top 10 percent earns more due to degrees and experience but if someone's been doing it for 69k for 20 years, I would expect them to be at least average (about 80k) with their experience saying that this person is good at what they do. At least make a smart move to a better, higher paying job within that 20 years. With average pay that Duke gives to Level 1 engineers (80k) I'd expect to be at about 108k within twenty year or at least the average salary. Going back with masters and so on, I'd expect higher than that. It just seems like within such a profession where so much is on the line, they would get promotions and bonuses within that company, especially after 20 years. If nothing shows promise, I'd apply for a higher paying job, even out of state. Don't be so rude. Nothing about my comment was derogatory. Without knowing the base salary, I asked a question.

Why such a low income average? Probably because 70% of Americans don't even go to college or finish with a degree. After being to 14 different schools in my 15 year lifespan, I can see why. Most kids don't care.

Anyways, I wanted to once again thank you guys for helping me put into perspective just what I'm dealing with.

The reason I've considered Nuclear Engineer so much is because I live right next to a Duke Energy Nuclear plant (Huntersville, NC). They just hired on a few more engineers and have sponsored my high school's engineering team. Don't believe they're shutting down any time soon.

@MMM thank you for the link! Very helpful!

I'll probably end up following Cheme's advice as my father is friends with a Nuclear Engineer and I've been trying to get me set up where I could job shadow or something to that extent before I decide that's what I want my career to be.

One again, thank you guys! Super helpful!

   To add a little color to your perspective what college and personal connections make a difference. Chelsea Clinton makes $600,000 a year with an Ivy league education and well connected parents. Someone from a no name party college and blue collar parents is asking if you want fries with that (a bit of writers license). YMMV but since you are looking and asking questions at your age I suspect you will be in the upper 50 percentile. Following Cheme's advice in a declining nuclear industry and an economy that just contracted by 2.9%, not putting all your eggs in one basket is a wise choice.

[cheme09]

With average pay that Duke gives to Level 1 engineers (80k) I'd expect to be at about 108k within twenty year or at least the average salary. Going back with masters and so on, I'd expect higher than that.

Unless Duke is slow at promoting engineers (i.e. keeping engineers at level 1 for 5 years or more) then I highly doubt level 1 engineers are making 80k (base salary, no bonuses or OT included).

I'll probably end up following Cheme's advice as my father is friends with a Nuclear Engineer and I've been trying to get me set up where I could job shadow or something to that extent before I decide that's what I want my career to be.

If you do get a chance to go tour a nuke plant, the "real nuclear engineers" at a nuke plant are the reactor engineers - there are usually only a few of them onsite. At my plant there are 3 reactor engineers out of about 100 total engineers in the department. Core design engineers and safety analysis engineers do real nuclear engineering also, but aren't usually located onsight. At my company those guys are back at corporate headquarters and support all company nuclear plants. The rest of the engineering dept at a nuke plant is made up of system engineers, design engineers, program engineers and project engineers; none of them do any nuclear engineering. Each has a different role and the type of work/projects they get and the day-to-day work each gets is different. You might want to try and see if you can talk to each type of engineer or at least ask somebody about what kind of work each of those engineers does.

[spekkio]

Don't be so rude. Nothing about my comment was derogatory. Without knowing the base salary, I asked a question.

Your question was ignorant and the way that you phrased it could be considered offensive to some... MMM seemed cool with it, but I was simply chiming in that when you, as a 17 year old who has yet to work a full-time job and pay her own bills, asking why someone *only* made $92k after 20 years as if he's a failure to get promoted comes off as ignorant and entitled.

Considering what those people have to do with that four year degree, the lowest 10 percent earned less than $68,940 and the top 10 percent earned more than $149,940. Obviously, that top 10 percent earns more due to degrees and experience but if someone's been doing it for 69k for 20 years, I would expect them to be at least average (about 80k) with their experience saying that this person is good at what they do. At least make a smart move to a better, higher paying job within that 20 years. With average pay that Duke gives to Level 1 engineers (80k) I'd expect to be at about 108k within twenty year or at least the average salary. Going back with masters and so on, I'd expect higher than that. It just seems like within such a profession where so much is on the line, they would get promotions and bonuses within that company, especially after 20 years. If nothing shows promise, I'd apply for a higher paying job, even out of state. Don't be so rude. Nothing about my comment was derogatory. Without knowing the base salary, I asked a question.

You have to be careful when using averages with income because income is not normally distributed; it's closer to exponentially or gamma distributed. The very few people who make really high salaries pull the average high; that is why using the median is a better indication of what you can expect to make.

Starting salary for an engineer fresh out of college is around $60-70k; that's assuming that you have good enough grades/internship/whatever to be hired in the field. The median career salary is around $90-110k. Half of engineers make more than that, but half don't. Also depends on location, local labor supply and demand comes into play, with generally more desirable locations having lower salaries simply because more people are there to hire.

Why such a low income average? Probably because 70% of Americans don't even go to college or finish with a degree. After being to 14 different schools in my 15 year lifespan, I can see why. Most kids don't care.

Annnd again your post has the tone of looking down on people who work hard to earn their money. Must be something wrong with the people making such a low salary of $50k. They must be lazy or indifferent... it's not like the economy is recovering from a massive recession, technology advances have reduced labor demand, or anything like that.

What I posted before is the median salary for people with 4 year degrees, i.e. the ones who finished. Without a college degree, the median income is around $25-30k. It's not bad to have a goal of pulling $100k with an engineering degree, but your idea that you can just jump ship to the next guy when you're not being paid what you want when you want it is off the mark. Perhaps there aren't many jobs available. Perhaps you're not as good as you think you are. Perhaps your current employer is already over-paying you. Perhaps you don't want to move your family for a 3% raise when you're already making good money. Perhaps you just bought a house and you do some calculations and realize that it would cost you over $10k in realtor fees to short-sell it because the value stayed flat the past few years. Perhaps your husband won't be able to find job where the job that gives you that small raise is located. You won't know any of this until you get there.

It sounds as if your parents have made very good careers for themselves and therefore you don't really have a good perspective on what a lot of people are going through. All I'm saying is be careful how you are phrasing things, because the tone of your posts conveys someone with a chip on her shoulder. Take it or leave it.

I also encourage you to talk to 22-25 year old college graduates and hear what they have to say about the job market, which is something your dad hasn't had to deal with for quite some time -- many would love to have a job at $40k with advancement opportunity just so they can afford to pay their student loans and move out of the parents house, but they're stuck working in retail/restaurants until that job oppportunity opens. Some of them are people who went to no-name state schools and spent their free time partying, but many are people who went to esteemed universities and have very solid GPAs.

Engineering careers can be relatively lucrative, just don't expect to be offered 6-figure jobs anywhere you please simply for being 'average.' You're going to need the right combination of talent, networking, and luck.

[etm]

Nuclear engineering can be a lucrative career, if you are fortunate enough to be able to stick with it your entire career.  As it is narrowly focused, it is definitely subject to the political and economic whims of the power companies and Washington.  Most are not able to stick with it -- family demands, ability to relocate to some remote locations, professional opportunities, etc.  Of the people I graduated with, less than 25% of us are still in a nuclear related job and we are still 20 years from retirement. 

Got my BS in Nuclear Engineering too long ago.  Found that if I wanted to stay employed, that I had to make myself more marketable.  I found myself at the lower end of the starting salaries because I was female and that just propagated itself.  Another consideration is that nuclear engineering (heck, engineering in general), isn't too forgiving when it comes to having a family.  Went back to school and got the MS, but not in Nuclear Engineering.  Also got professional certification.  While not pure nuclear engineering, I am in management in radiation protection and worked as a health physicist.  Decades into this journey, yes I am making six figures.

Of the many different types of engineering, it is probably one that has an even greater percentage of men.  Just stresses some of the comments made in that this is all about networking and connections.  It also highlights the comments made about the "chip" on your shoulder.  Been there.  You will need to strike a balance and now is just as good as time as any to start learning.  You are absolutely right about the experience.  You are going to have to work at securing internships.  We just hired some individuals with less than 3 years of experience and their MS degrees for around $80-$85.  Qualified candidates will get the job in spite of work place quotas, but being a lady may open a door.  But believe me, you may be allowed to walk through but if you don't meet expectations, you will be asked to not let it hit you on the way back out.

My recommendation would be to consider mechanical engineering.  A lot more marketability and as you do your research, it is pretty easy to pick up some courses in thermo, fluids and materials and make it a nuclear engineering degree.

[cheme09]

My recommendation would be to consider mechanical engineering.  A lot more marketability and as you do your research, it is pretty easy to pick up some courses in thermo, fluids and materials and make it a nuclear engineering degree.

Thermo, fluids and materials, doesn't make the nuke degree unique. Those are standard courses for mechanical engineering. Materials (depending on the focus of the course) may be standard or elective for nuke and even chemical engineering.

Nuclear physics courses is what delineates a nuclear engineering curriculum from mechanical.

[GLW]

[hamsamich]

truth man!

[Marlin]

I knew a chemical engineer whose desk (cubicle) looked just like that, we wheeled in a large trash can periodically to reduce fire loading. Interesting individual who was into belt sander racing and other off normal activities.