The Nuclear Renaissance

[withroaj]

Our captain had to come on ship TV to explain basics to the crew in order to minimize the panic when the EOOW would announce the Rx was Critical during drills. 

"Captain, the reactor is CRITICAL!!!"

During drills?  Does that mean they weren't there working during the 3AM startup?  Wierd.

[withroaj]

About commercial plants being more complex than NNPP plants:  Does that come from an I+C standpoint, or is it mechanical as well?  I have this idea of a plant being a heat source, some boiling somewhere and some turbines.  Throw in a condenser or two for good measure and you've got a plant, right?  ...Right?

[JustinHEMI05]

I am dealing with the re-education of a bunch of greenie liberal enviro-whacos right now on an outdoors forum I frequent. Of course they are anti-nuke because of the tons and tons of waste we leave behind. I explained to them, and even showed them pictures, of the fact that Peach's spent fuel takes up less than half a football field, and it only takes up that much space because of the conservative NRC distance requirements between casks. I then told them that their pathetic lives have already and will continue to put way more waste in land fills as compared to how much nuclear waste will be left behind. When they had no way to respond to the truth, they then attacked the security of spent fuel and decided it wasn't worth the risk of being stolen by terrorists to make a bomb. So then I had to truth them again about just how much spent fuel they would have to steal to make a bomb, and the logistic near impossibility for them to actually perform a theft from a pad site as far as size of equipment goes if they want to steal several casks, or the cutting equipment they need to break into one, all the while being attacked from all sides by a small army. I also pointed out that the frech re-process their fuel and how often have you heard about theft from their sites? Again, faced with the truth, they fell silent and I am in fact still waiting for their next rebuttal.

Point of all of this is that the public is stupid (particuarly enviro-whacos) and we have the duty to educate them using real facts and science. It can be done, and I think it is being done. A lot of times I direct folks to the NRC website and the CFR when they throw TMI in my face, so that I can better explain the greater scrutiny and control we operate under. The NRC website is a really good tool. I just wish we could send them to the INPO website too. Maybe we can and I just don't know how, so if anyone knows, please tell.

It is a tough, daunting task but it can be done. Its going to take actual nuke workers to do it though, not the corporations.

Justin

[withroaj]

Maybe we should all get memberships for the Greenpeace forum.

[JustinHEMI05]

About commercial plants being more complex than NNPP plants:  Does that come from an I+C standpoint, or is it mechanical as well?  I have this idea of a plant being a heat source, some boiling somewhere and some turbines.  Throw in a condenser or two for good measure and you've got a plant, right?  ...Right?

Way wrong. They are far more complicated from both an I&C and mechanical standpoint. You have to remember, most everything is automated in the plant and in order to automate major systems in the 60s and 70s, you had to have these horrendously complicated logic control systems. Sometimes, you have control systems for control systems and so on. I often wonder when the wizard of oz is going to jump out from behind the panels with his pulleys and strings and hamster wheels. You will be amazed at the complexity required to make a bunch of valves do something when any number of signals are sent to them.

As far as mechanics go... well geez... there are literally hundreds of systems, many of which have their own little role in the big picture. Without them, the unit goes offline. I am still in awe everytime I walk down the plant that we humans can build such a beast... and it works...well. It amazes me that something that is my age or more, can operate for 2 years straight without ever going offline. Peach unit 3 has had two back to back breaker to breaker runs and we are working on unit 2's first. Simply, amazing that it is even possible. There are so many things that have to work perfectly together, and I would think the odds are stacked against a unit staying up for an entire fuel cycle... but they do.

These new generation plants will be much much simpler. But that is obviously a function of technology and experience. I can't wait to run one.

Justin

[withroaj]

So we're talking control and support systems then?  The fission to electricity process is the same thing, right?  Boil some water and spin a turbine?

Is watchstanding still watchstanding there?  I don't imagine having ERS, ERUL, ERF, ERLL, AEA, RT; but do you still have guys wandering around in the plant checking gages and wiping up oil?

[JustinHEMI05]

So we're talking control and support systems then?  The fission to electricity process is the same thing, right?  Boil some water and spin a turbine?

Is watchstanding still watchstanding there?  I don't imagine having ERS, ERUL, ERF, ERLL, AEA, RT; but do you still have guys wandering around in the plant checking gages and wiping up oil?

Yes the basics are the same, fission=heat=water to steam=turbine go roundy=generate electricity.

The BWR stuff might throw you for a loop a bit, but its not hard when you sit down and give it a few hours. You do have to worry about all of those reactivities you ignored in a NNPP, due to enrichment. And no one cares about Tave anymore.

I can only speak from the Peach perspective as far as watch standing. The NLOs here have rounds to do (AKA logs). At the beginning of the day, they download the rounds for the area they are in charge of for the day into their company supplied hand held device using Esoms. The areas are;
Reactor building 2 and 3 (1 NLO each)
Turbine building 2 and 3 (1 NLO each)
Outside/Substation (1 NLO)
Water treatment plant (1NLO)
Rad waste water treatment (1 NLO)

We then have a shift meeting after turnover,  then the NLOs go out and start their rounds. Depending on the day of the week and shift (and physical fitness of the NLO), they can take anywhere from 2-4 hours to complete. On these rounds their priority is tech spec items (federal law stuff) that has to be done and turned into an RO by a certain time. After that, they usually have a routine inspection of a particular system that day. Yes, they read some meters and guages and stuff like that, and log them in their hand helds.  Also, they do minor house keeping like wipe up oil and water on the way.

When their rounds are done, thats it as far as that goes for the day. No hourly logs out here. Things just don't change much or often. In fact, some stuff might go a whole week without being looked at closely.

The rest of their day is spend applying/removing clearanced (tagouts) and other administrative procedures/testing. A lot of their day is spent...well... doing other things. 

Justin

PS If you're curious, our license structure is like this.
4 ROs... one on each unit, one middle or common guy, and a "fourth" RO who handles testing/admin.
3 SROs (4 on day shifts during the work week). 1 SRO = CRS for both units(2, one on each unit on day shfts during the work week), 1 SRO = work control (supervises 4th RO), 1 SRO = floor supervisor (out in the plant). ROs have rounds in the control room.

[withroaj]

Sounds awesome.  The whole BWR thing sounds like it would make invasive turbine maintenance a lot bigger job than it would be worth.  I guess all I know is the super-prohibitive NNPP radcon, though.

Does the whole "negative alpha T" (keeping it vague since I don't know what I can say) inherent stability thing still apply to BWR's (or even commercial PWR's for that matter)?  With BWR's you wind up dealing with pressure and void coefficients, too, don't you?

[JustinHEMI05]

Sounds awesome.  The whole BWR thing sounds like it would make invasive turbine maintenance a lot bigger job than it would be worth.  I guess all I know is the super-prohibitive NNPP radcon, though.

Does the whole "negative alpha T" (keeping it vague since I don't know what I can say) inherent stability thing still apply to BWR's (or even commercial PWR's for that matter)?  With BWR's you wind up dealing with pressure and void coefficients, too, don't you?

Yes, a negative moderator cooefficient is still important, but it can be slightly positives at certain times in core life. Without going deep into commercial rx theory, it does change more drastically over core life too as compared to NNPP. Again that is a function of enrichment. Inherent stability still applies. And yes, in BWR voids are important.

As far as work, yes everything is a mess to work on at a BWR. Everything is contaminated. Another thing that was hard for me to adjust to was the RADCON out here. At first, you will think "what the hell are these guys doing?" But then you soon realize that they are very experienced and very good at what they do (the rad tech, mechanics, and such) and what would be blasphemy in the Navy, works perfectly fine out here. They do their jobs well without spreading contamination all over the place. But, because of the way the navy trains us, at first you would think otherwise. LOL The Navy is far too restrictive as far as RADCON and log taking goes. This is another area they could learn a lot from in the commercial world.

You have to remember also that there is a giant money machine attached to the end of the generator. If we did things the navy way, there is no way it would ever be cost effective or feasible to run a nuke plant. Again I always go back to my personal experience..

In the Navy I watch them take damn near a year to flip a couple of valves around. Out here, I watched them replace two gigantic steam generators and refuel the plant in under a month. Our next outtage here is only like 20 days. Amazing.

Justin

[withroaj]

And operators operate while maintenance workers do maintenance?  Fiscal and Personnel accountability apply to managing the plant?  No foney baloney training (I guess you never said that, but I can only assume)?  When this Navy thing stops working out for me I think I know where to go.

[JustinHEMI05]

And operators operate while maintenance workers do maintenance?  Fiscal and Personnel accountability apply to managing the plant?  No foney baloney training (I guess you never said that, but I can only assume)?  When this Navy thing stops working out for me I think I know where to go.

That is correct as far as operators and maintenace. As far as managment... you are going to have douche bags above you no matter where you go, its just that out here, they damage they can do is far more limited than in the Navy. As far as foney training, do you mean will you be asked to push the "i believe" button? Well sometimes, sorry. But not often. Look, its not perfect out here simply because humans are still involved and it is nuclear power, after all. There is still BS to deal with and douches to deal with. But at the end of the day, my face hurts from a s**t eating grin, not a dirty scowl and that means a lot to me. 

Justin

PS My discounted company stock is up 4 bucks since last week. 

[JustinHEMI05]

Someone else's turn... my hands hurt. LOL

Justin

[withroaj]

Oh I know that we all work for people who are dumber than we are.  As you said, that goes with human institutions.  What I mean by the improved management aspect is that commercial plants exist for the bottom line, and the company will ensure its profit.  That can keep you from wasteful practices that don't really help anything (3 PAS's every four hours, maybe?).  You also aren't a salary slave, right?  Overtime applies in a big kids' plant.

[JustinHEMI05]

Oh I know that we all work for people who are dumber than we are.  As you said, that goes with human institutions.  What I mean by the improved management aspect is that commercial plants exist for the bottom line, and the company will ensure its profit.  That can keep you from wasteful practices that don't really help anything (3 PAS's every four hours, maybe?).  You also aren't a salary slave, right?  Overtime applies in a big kids' plant.

Oh I gotcha. Yes I am a salary slave. Most places I think SRO and up are salaried. ROs and NLOs are hourly.

Justin

[93-383]

Notice them using MWe.. thats MW electrical. For example, Peach puts out about 1300ish MWe at 3514 MW thermal.

And if there was one thing we all learned in the nuke world, it was NOT to put out our buttons. 

Justin

I withdraw my prior argument.

[Roll Tide]

See if you think this is a "Renaissance":

McCain calls for building 45 new nuclear reactors


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D91CMB2G0&show_article=1

[JustinHEMI05]

See if you think this is a "Renaissance":

McCain calls for building 45 new nuclear reactors


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D91CMB2G0&show_article=1

Now WE need to get the greenies and NIMBYS on board... or out of the way.

Justin

[Preciousblue1965]

"Captain, the reactor is CRITICAL!!!"

During drills?  Does that mean they weren't there working during the 3AM startup?  Wierd.

Well it was a 1MC thing for DIW drills.  Never can forget the look on the faces of skittles sitting on the mess decks.  One time we seriously considered having all the nukes just drop their tray and start running towards the plant when they announced the RX was Critical.

[Preciousblue1965]

Now WE need to get the greenies and NIMBYS on board... or out of the way.

Justin

Can't we just beat them into submission like we do with most of the NUBs that don't agree with us?

Wait got a better idea, just promise them that this will allow more people to purchase a Toyota Prius and start using hemp-fiber shopping bags instead of plastic

[JustinHEMI05]

Can't we just beat them into submission like we do with most of the NUBs that don't agree with us?

Wait got a better idea, just promise them that this will allow more people to purchase a Toyota Prius and start using hemp-fiber shopping bags instead of plastic

That might work, until someone educates them about just how polluting Prius's are.

Justin

[Gamecock]

Maybe we should all get memberships for the Greenpeace forum.

FYI...the founder of Greenpeace is now pro-nuclear

http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/legislative_issues/federal_issues/hot_issues_in_congress/energy/Greenpeace-Founder-We-Must-Go-Nuclear.html

[rlbinc]

SQN is a far more efficient plant thermally as it has 7 stages of Feedwater Heating and recovers virtually everything.

Thermodynamically, it very likely recovers 35% of virtually everything. My buddy Carnot sez so.

Yep the Navy plants are commercial plant decay heat. If I take a 3500 Mwt plant and scram it. for the first hour, it will exceed full power for a Navy plant, solely on decay heat.

One Safety Relief Valve is about 6% power on a BWR (and we have a bunch of them) which represents 210 Mwt.

The feedpump case, you'd have to show me. I have seen 22,000 shaft horsepower on a BWR Turbine Driven Reactor Feedwater Pump - "balls out" (which BTW is an ancient woodward governor term to describe maximum speed). Using Hymie Rickover's Thumbrule for Interplanetary Power Conversions...which I have found to be infallible... 
"3,4,5 Kiss Hymies Ass" 3 kW = 4 HP = 5 Amps at 480vac ...
We come to 16.5 Mw for the BWR TDRFP - I know they don't have enough electrical power to get that rolling, but we roll with steam - so IMHO, its a distinct possibility that a submarine plant CAN roll a Turbine Driven Reactor Feedwater Pump but not much else. Sadly, a Steam Jet Air Ejector, Offgas Recombiner Preheat, Gland Seals, and a couple big old honking Condensate and Booster Pumps are also required to roll the TDRFP, and that would probably result in a visit from NRRO and a tough time at the next ORSE.

As a point of historical accuracy Hymie Rickover's Thumbrule for Interplanetary Power Conversion is more correctly 3,4,5,12,Kiss Hymies Ass Daily, with the 12 corresponding to DC Amps at Battery Voltage.

[exocom]

Preciousblue1965,

Your inner geek is definately showing, as is mine.  BT Gray Death Legion.  Good stories even if the author was what you sit on in person.

[Preciousblue1965]

That might work, until someone educates them about just how polluting Prius's are.

Justin

D'OH

[Preciousblue1965]

Preciousblue1965,

Your inner geek is definately showing, as is mine.  BT Gray Death Legion.  Good stories even if the author was what you sit on in person.

Ding, Ding, Ding.  I was wondering how long before someone got it.  I am in the process of re-reading all the books I have.