lost cause?

[Bighouz107501]

hey everyone! its been a while since being on here but i thought I could use some advice. well anyways, im not too sure if you have heard about the Truman. yet another cheating scandal on a CTE that is resulting in alot of people being relieved and masted. I was questioned and admitted that I did indeed do this, so I am most likely being sent up here soon and being removed of my NEC. i have yet to qualify CRW as well. (if you want anymore details about this exam stuff let me know) but anyways, a few guys and myself were curious if this would ruin a chance at a job on the outside? does it waive any flags? i could honestly see it being either way. well thanks for the time

dennis

[sovbob]

yet another cheating scandal on a CTE that is resulting in alot of people being relieved and masted.

Wow, that sucks.  I always knew that training was often fabricated.  Back when divisions had to develop their own training plans/exams/grades, the training POs would just make up exams but the division wouldn't take them.  Instead, he would come up with exam scores that would seem plausible (the senior guys would do well, and the nubs would do poorly).  Every exam had one person fail, and one question failed.

In actuality, such a distribution of grades would be impossible to reliably achieve.  If people scored too low, the training was not effective.  If people scored too high, the tests weren't challenging enough.  In essence, the training PO couldn't win because of the unreasonably small margin he was expected to fit in.  And so, out of frustration more than anything else, he just says "F*CK IT" and makes up grades that will satisfy everybody.

This became a large and pervasive problem, as people became more and more sensitive to "making the grades fit the curve" rather than having real-world training with less-than-ideal results.  Sometimes I wondered if the higher-ups realized the training system was broken and chose to ignore it, or if they really believed that every exam resulted in a perfect distribution of grades.

Of course, CTE wasn't the only problem.  Watchstation qualification exams were also affected, but to a lesser extent.  It was common practice that when a guy was ready for his watchstation qual exam, the training PO would hand him the approved test and tell him to "find a quiet place to take it" meaning that he should go hide in some out-of-the-way spot, and look up answers if needed.  It was understood that the person taking the exam should not ace it, because that would be suspicious.  Part of the problem was that in order to get a qual exam approved, it required brutally difficult questions.  These questions went far beyond what might be reasonably expected to stand the watch.  Furthermore, in a division that is so short-handed, it needs all the qualified watchstanders it can get.  It could take weeks to get a new exam written, routed, and approved.  So in the interest of getting people qualified, these exams were influenced.

But I digress.  It's a shame that you got caught in the CTE mess.  I truly sympathize with you, because I know that the training system is broken and while I don't condone integrity violations, I understand how good people can be caught up in bad situations.

[Smooth Operator]

You nailed it.

[HydroDave63]

curious if this would ruin a chance at a job on the outside? does it waive any flags?

Things that may negatively influence finding outside work, especially nuclear operations :

1. Anything other than an Honorable discharge

2. HR or hiring manager reviewing resume, looking at work experience/watchstations qualified.

3. Interview questions about what you did/qualified during your Navy time.

4. Background investigation, since now even ordinary sounding jobs, simply requiring unescorted access to computer equipment, substations and anything nuclear are now looking back 7 years, and the investigations include asking the references for other references,etc.

Your posting sounded fairly honest and coming clean, and that would be the approach that, if you do get an interview  may be THE only thing that saves your bacon! Good luck!

[Khak-Hater]

Might it affect your getting some jobs?  Yes, it might.  Will it keep you from getting a job in the nuclear field?  NO.  

There are two types of men in the world, those that admit to occasionally gratifying themselves sexually and those who lie about it.

There are plenty of "holier than thou" types who will hold this event against you, most of whom are lying to themselves that they, themselves, never cheated in any way.  I'm not denying that there aren't few "Snow White"s out there, who never cheated on anything, ever, but they're rarely part of the aforementioned group of "holier than thou"s.  Most of us, understand that things like this occur, and are aware of the associated consequences.  To be honest, if they'd hold this against you, then you probably don't want to work for them any way.  

Some advice would be to broaden your job search (e.g., don't just focus on commercial power, but include DOE and other nuclear/radiological work).  Be honest about it if asked (i.e., own your mistake, without shame or allowing it to define you).  Work hard at any opportunities that present themselves, and it will soon be forgotten by all but the most ardent of Pharisees.

A quick sea story:

When I got to the Pig in Alameda, they immediately stuck me in RT Div. to qualify BNEQ.  I spent all available time learning the systems, many of which were very similar to the systems at my NPTU [S3G].  I began hitting up the RT instructors for checkouts, but they were even less supportive than the NPTU instructors at S3G.  The ones who weren't jackasses about it suggested that I wait until I get my TLD and then go down to one of the plant's CTG Flats right after in-port morning muster and catch some of the QPOs while they were waiting around to either get a work assignment or cut loose for the day.  It sounded good.  So I studied and waited for my TLD.

The day came when I got my TLD, so I went down to the plant and started walking down the systems that I'd studied.  The next morning, I headed to the 2-Plant CTG Flats for my first CVN-65 checkout.  The flats were thick with blueshirts, as I headed in, Qual card in hand, looking for a QPO.  As I headed into the crowd, I asked the first fellow that I made eye contact with where I might find a QPO.  At this point, a different fellow to my right yelled "Fresh NUB!," grabbed my BNEQ qual card, and quickly dissappeared into the crowd.  Someone else assured me that everything was cool and started making small talk with me; what was my rate, where was I from, what prototype did I go to, how'd I like the Bay area so far, etc.  Then some khaks handed out some work assignments and cut everyone else loose.  The CTG Flats quickly emptied of people, and I was left there alone, without having gotten a single checkout.  Plus, I'd lost my qual card [Bummer].  

As I left the plant, I found my qual card near the exit ladder.  Every blank had been signed off.  Not just sleezed in by two or three guys, but with the interspersed signatures of more than a dozen different QPOs.  I was lost.  What should I do?  Go report this integrity violation to the RT Div. Khak.  Throw the qual card away, say that I lost it, and ask for another.  I went to one of the nicer RT Instructors and asked for advice.  He laughed about how I'd been majorly slimed with sleaziness - more so than he'd ever seen.  He said that it was now my responsibility to ensure that I knew everything on that card.  It was very much like the "With great power comes great responsibility" speech from Raimi's Spiderman.  "It's your responsability to know the plant inside and out."  He told me that I could skate the curve for the next couple of months or hurry up and qualify and get down to the plant.  I crammed for another week and passed the BNEQ test and board.  I was out of RT two weeks from the day I reported on to the ship, but I spent the next few years learning those plants.  

Keep your chin up, work hard, and you'll overcome this.  Always remember that it's no one's responsability but yours to ensure that you are a heavy toad.  Excellence comes from within.  

Good luck,

mgm

[Fermi2]

I've never cheated and if anyone around me cheats I'll do everything in my power to get them removed from the industry.

Mike

[Gamecock]

A quick sea story:

When I got to the Pig in Alameda, they immediately stuck me in RT Div. to qualify BNEQ.  I spent all available time learning the systems, many of which were very similar to the systems at my NPTU [S3G].  I began hitting up the RT instructors for checkouts, but they were even less supportive than the NPTU instructors at S3G.  The ones who weren't jackasses about it suggested that I wait until I get my TLD and then go down to one of the plant's CTG Flats right after in-port morning muster and catch some of the QPOs while they were waiting around to either get a work assignment or cut loose for the day.  It sounded good.  So I studied and waited for my TLD.

The day came when I got my TLD, so I went down to the plant and started walking down the systems that I'd studied.  The next morning, I headed to the 2-Plant CTG Flats for my first CVN-65 checkout.  The flats were thick with blueshirts, as I headed in, Qual card in hand, looking for a QPO.  As I headed into the crowd, I asked the first fellow that I made eye contact with where I might find a QPO.  At this point, a different fellow to my right yelled "Fresh NUB!," grabbed my BNEQ qual card, and quickly dissappeared into the crowd.  Someone else assured me that everything was cool and started making small talk with me; what was my rate, where was I from, what prototype did I go to, how'd I like the Bay area so far, etc.  Then some khaks handed out some work assignments and cut everyone else loose.  The CTG Flats quickly emptied of people, and I was left there alone, without having gotten a single checkout.  Plus, I'd lost my qual card [Bummer]. 

As I left the plant, I found my qual card near the exit ladder.  Every blank had been signed off.  Not just sleezed in by two or three guys, but with the interspersed signatures of more than a dozen different QPOs.  I was lost.  What should I do?  Go report this integrity violation to the RT Div. Khak.  Throw the qual card away, say that I lost it, and ask for another.  I went to one of the nicer RT Instructors and asked for advice.  He laughed about how I'd been majorly slimed with sleaziness - more so than he'd ever seen.  He said that it was now my responsibility to ensure that I knew everything on that card.  It was very much like the "With great power comes great responsibility" speech from Raimi's Spiderman.  "It's your responsability to know the plant inside and out."  He told me that I could skate the curve for the next couple of months or hurry up and qualify and get down to the plant.  I crammed for another week and passed the BNEQ test and board.  I was out of RT two weeks from the day I reported on to the ship, but I spent the next few years learning those plants. 

I'll bet that if you had asked the RTA or the RO that you would have gotten a different response

[HydroDave63]

Can you jump a shark if all the water is under the bridge?!?!?!? 

If you are Ted Kennedy and you are driving..... definitely!

On-topic: Bighouz, what post-EAOS job category are you looking at pursuing now, in your circumstances?

[Gamecock]

in fact, i see all the people who cheated and lied as bigger integrity violators.

Wrong.....

[Khak-Hater]

I'll bet that if you had asked the RTA or the RO that you would have gotten a different response

That was the problem.  A dozen or more senior operators who otherwise did a fine job running their plant would've gotten hammered.  That's the problem inherent in the system.  Did I want to get my card sleazed off?  No.  Was I 100% ready for several checkouts?  Yes.  Did I think that there was a problem with what happened?  Yes.  Did I think that telling a khak about the problem would've resulted in anything short of some widespread draconian form of negative reinforcement?  Not for a second.  

Khaks never ask why something like this happens.  The answer is already programmed into them - lack of discipline; lack of integrity; lack of character; lack of fear.  The nuke Navy that I served in didn't do root cause analyses.  They did critiques, which inevitably ended in a game of "fry the blue shirt(s)."  This is the problem with bad management, when someone knows that, not only will informing management not fix the problem, it will make the situation worse, then problems never get fixed. 

Honestly, no one ever needs to cheat at anything.  I proctor the CHP exam every year and I've never seen anyone even try anything questionable.  The test means something to the candidates and they respect it.  They respect the months of study that they put into it.  They respect themselves and their peers when they pass it. 

Why didn't those 2-Plant QPOs respect the "sanctity" of the checkout process?  I don't know.  Personally, I was a QPO for everything that I was qualified and I was qualified everything that I could, and I loved giving checkouts.  I find training people and sharing knowledge to be very rewarding.  Maybe they didn't.  Maybe they didn't value the process.  Maybe they actually operated by a different process and the checkout process was simply an external administrative system that was imposed upon them.  2 Plant was a fine plant.  I can't think of any 2-Plant watchstanders who weren't competent at their jobs [unlike those misfits in 1 Plant].  How were they competent watch standers without respecting the checkout process?  I'd wager that it was because they had a different process, which they did value.  

I'd be interested in asking our thread starter why he didn't respect the testing process [and, no the answer is not related to whether or not he thought that he would get caught and/or punished].  In "The Plague," one of Camus' characters points out that the fundamental difference between criminals/policemen and normal people is that when a normal person considers whether or not to observe a law he considers whether it is reasonable (e.g., it's reasonable to exceed the speed limit on a dry straight four lane highway with good visibility), whereas both cops and criminals judge laws by the chance of getting caught and associated punishment.  

In the years since I've been out of the Navy, I can't think of a test that I've taken or given, for which one of the participants would consider cheating necessary, seriously, and it has nothing to do with chances of getting caught or associated punishments.  It also has nothing to do with INTEGRITY.  Do you think that the average civilian has more integrity than the average Navy nuke?  Why does the Navy have this problem?  Do you all have problems with cheaters where you work?  What's the motivation?

I'm not proposing some new-age, love everybody crap, or defending the poor misunderstood criminal.  I'm asking "What's the real problem here?"  This is management, not head-in-the-sand rhetoric.  Why does this happen?  A good manager would find out and fix the problem.  That's what good managers do.  The Navy keeps having this problem because they never take the time to find out why it's happening.  Fry some more blue shirts.  That'll fix it.  No, that'll just drive the problem deeper underground.   

So, Bighouz107501, I'd be interested in knowing, what was your motivation for cheating?  It's not an easy question.  I wouldn't expect a short answer.

Thanks,

mgm

[30378wby]

hey everyone! its been a while since being on here but i thought I could use some advice. well anyways, im not too sure if you have heard about the Truman. yet another cheating scandal on a CTE that is resulting in alot of people being relieved and masted. I was questioned and admitted that I did indeed do this, so I am most likely being sent up here soon and being removed of my NEC. i have yet to qualify CRW as well. (if you want anymore details about this exam stuff let me know) but anyways, a few guys and myself were curious if this would ruin a chance at a job on the outside? does it waive any flags? i could honestly see it being either way. well thanks for the time

dennis

Wow, I guess the world and the nuclear navy has changed a lot more than I expected.  I spent the last 2 years on my carrier in Reactor Training (1986-1988) and can tell anyone that the secondary mechanical tests were harder than hell and the operators still passed them while being monitored throughout the test as the division knew how hard they were and made the boards quite hard.  We had a ETCS shooting for warrant officer and cheat on his PPWS exam and was turned in by a blueshirt and denuked.  I cannot recall another example of a nuke cheating in my memory of that time.  I can tell you that in a ship yard environment when you are caught cheating the instructors want you fired but the government will simply move you to another job.  If you are caught cheating in commercial nuclear power at my company as an operator you will be gone and your employment will no longer be desired.  We will agree with the NRC assignment of being blocked for X years from working in the nuclear industry and keep you from working for us.

But I would say, after the restrictions in place of 9/11, do not lie, exaggerate or soften your involvement or actions as some portion of the government will ensure that we are completely informed of your conduct.  If you did not get a DD or a felony then you should still be able to work commercial nuclear, just be truthful.

[Preciousblue1965]

BigHouz......Dude that sucks hard core.  I am surprised it hasn't made the Navy times yet.  However you are a bigger man than most in the fact that admitted to it up front and had the fortitude to admit to it on this forum.  Best of luck to you in the future.

Khak-hater.....If you really want to know why there is this underlying sense of the need to cheat on exams, well it isn't a difficult answer as much as a several step answer.  It all starts with who we let stay in the program.  Years ago, the attrition rate for academics was much larger than it is now.  Therefore only the truly intelligent made it through.  Now it is almost impossible to get a student dropped for academics.  Furthermore, the material that is taught now is much less in detail than before, and the method in which that material is delivered is severely dumbed-down(the students get pre printed notes with fill in the blanks).  The responsibility for passing has been shifted from the student to the instructors now.  It is no longer a students fault if he fails, it is the instructors fault for not putting in enough effort to train the untrainable.  This leads to lower quality of nuke operators with regards to intelligence.  Now throw in the fact that those that have been in for a very long time are now in positions of importance, they remember what tests were like back in the day and feel that the tests now should be as difficult as they were back then.  So you get a LOT of failures.  Instead of looking at the quality of nukes that are taking the test as a possible problem, these senior folks immediately thing that there must be something wrong with the training that is being given on the ships.  Cue knee-jerk reactions, and now you have all nukes going through more and more training and training departments getting hammered.  Thus appears the fork in the road, A) continue with training and life as you know it being hell until grades improve or B) take the easy way out and fudge the numbers to make the brass happy and get back to easier days.  Sadly option B is often the path chosen.  Soon you get grades skyrocketing and the higher ups say the tests are too easy, so you have to make the tests even harder, which begits more cheating, and so on and so forth.  Thus it ends up being that only a seasoned operator with several years of operations would be the only ones who would be able to pass the initial watchstanders exam, and CTEs that go above and beyond any reasonable level of knowledge.  Thus this breeds the mentality of the need to cheat, especially when there are negative consequences of failing such as coming in on days off or lengthy remedial programs. 

At least that is how I see the problem, but as Dennis Miller says..."I could be wrong"

[HockeyFan]

if i failed the next CTE i would have been placed on remedial hours which start after the official work day and its 5 days a week. on top of that i have to perform a knowledge upgrade and then stay even more late on the friday after the exam.

The lesson learned should be that if you had failed after giving your best shot and studying hard, you would still be a nuke.  You may have had to work a bit more to be upgraded, but you would be better off in the long run and a more knowledgable operator.

OK, I'm sure you agree and hindsight is 20/20.  So moving forward, I will tell you that your Navy experience will not hurt you one bit in a non-nuclear civilian job.  Finish your degree, intern at a good company, and do the right thing in the future.  Build your reputation as a someone who follows the straight and narrow path even when it's difficult, and you'll be a winner.

Dave

[War Eagle]

BigH,
While I appreciate your candor and honesty on these boards, be careful about what you post especially if you or others are still under investigation. Remember, there's no such thing as rules of evidence in CO's Mast.

[War Eagle]

I've seen the "culture" approach gloss over individual integrity violations before. 

To be intentionally vague, I found a significant number of questionable things during a spot check of a program.  When I presented my findings, I cautioned my organization against making an example of the people named in my report. I could have just as easily selected a different handful of records and come up with an entirely new list of names.  So, given the choice betweeen going "all-in" and auditing everyone or treating it as a culture issue, we treated it as a culture issue and gave everyone a stern warning not to be the next one to have a problem. 

edit: The post I responded to has disappeared.

[Fermi2]

Sorry, I won't coddle the boy. I don't want him anywhere near any reactor that I'm either working at or living near.
When push came to shove and the going got tough he lowered his standards and sunk to the lowest common denominator.
Under similar circumstances my guess he'll do it again and I'd prefer he'd be someone elses problem. It's a difficult enough industry with the people who handle themselves well under fire let alone having those who wilt when the fire starts getting warm.

Then again that's just my opinion.

Mike

[IPREGEN]

"Everybody else was doing it", so lame that you let others affect your personal ethics. Next up, when you are de-nuked and working A-gang at a tender in Diego Garcia, you'll be telling people how the Navy screwed you when we all, and you too, know you screwed yourself. Hopefully you are learning that doing what other idiots do is not a good choice. The Navy was more interested in you success than failure but you cheated anyway and now your integrity is in question. Here is, grasshopper, the advice you seek...Grow a nut, take what they give you and move on.

[watson764]

To all of the people who are on their soapbox and saying that they have never cheated and pretending that they are perfect, let me ask you all a question.  Have you ever known what was going to be asked on an exam before the exam and then taken the time to study those questions?  Or a list of "good things to know"?  Or what drills were going to be run on you?  Maybe you looked at someone elses board sheets before you went to see the same quailifier for a board?  Or a hundred different things.  Well, I am on the Truman also and all of these things are also being considered cheating.  So before you crucify him or anyone else, maybe think about these things and look back to see if you have ever done anyone of them.


Let he who has never sinned cast the first stone.

[HydroDave63]

Have you ever known what was going to be asked on an exam before the exam and then taken the time to study those questions?  Or a list of "good things to know"?  Or what drills were going to be run on you? 

Not quite in the same league as having proctors fill in the exam for ya. Nice try though.

[watson764]

Not quite in the same league as having proctors fill in the exam for ya. Nice try though.

You're right, not the same exact thing, but considered cheating none the less.

[Fermi2]

To all of the people who are on their soapbox and saying that they have never cheated and pretending that they are perfect, let me ask you all a question.  Have you ever known what was going to be asked on an exam before the exam and then taken the time to study those questions?  Or a list of "good things to know"?  Or what drills were going to be run on you?  Maybe you looked at someone elses board sheets before you went to see the same quailifier for a board?  Or a hundred different things.  Well, I am on the Truman also and all of these things are also being considered cheating.  So before you crucify him or anyone else, maybe think about these things and look back to see if you have ever done anyone of them.


Let he who has never sinned cast the first stone.

No I haven't, I don't pay that close of attention to anything that's said in class. I get prints, procedures, and student texts and figure stuff out for myself. I'm not on a soap box.

Mike

[LT Dan]

To all of the people who are on their soapbox and saying that they have never cheated and pretending that they are perfect, let me ask you all a question.  Have you ever known what was going to be asked on an exam before the exam and then taken the time to study those questions?  Or a list of "good things to know"?  Or what drills were going to be run on you?  Maybe you looked at someone elses board sheets before you went to see the same quailifier for a board?  Or a hundred different things.  Well, I am on the Truman also and all of these things are also being considered cheating.  So before you crucify him or anyone else, maybe think about these things and look back to see if you have ever done anyone of them.


Let he who has never sinned cast the first stone.

Looking at someone's board sheet certainly should not be cheating....you had better know what the boss likes to ask, and know those questions cold!!! 
Back when I was in, I always told the guys several things that they had better know when they came to see me for the final board.  Then, during the qual board,  I would ask them one question from those items, and if they got it 4.0, I knew that they knew the other items I told them to know and I was then free to focus on other items.  If they missed the question I decided to spot check, I always failed them.

[bradley535]

There is a little feature here on Nukeworker.com that allows you to look at the past posts of a user. Before I make any kind of judgment on someone, or pretend to see things from their perspective, I read them. I would like anyone else who feels the need to comment about Bighouz's integrity and value as a Nuke to read them. Just for brevity and to illustrate my coming points, let me summarize what I've read.

BigH started posting in Feb of 2006 when he was fresh out of high school and in the DEP program. He's got about a million posts in there about helping out your fellow sailor (Even before you are a sailor "If you aren't willing to help people prepare for he ASVAB how could someone such as myself trust you to help someone on a ship or to help that person sitting next to you in class who is struggling?"). He goes on with the struggles that he faced in Power School. "Im struggling and putting in my best effort and have a 3.0 and yet im more than satisfied. High school made me a slacker at everything and I never put in any effort, but Nuke school has changed me already and now Im not satisfied with anything less than my best effort.". And again toward the end, "now I find myself constantly studying and having many sleepless nights dreading the exam the next day... But with all this I have found many positives. I find myself wanting to learn and do better. I get excited to go to the fleet and enjoy the torments of being a NUB and qualify."

These are not pushed in fabrications of the "Go-getter-sailor" that have graced orientation films like "The first 48-hours", this is the real deal. Now here he is, two years later, getting sent up to mast because he cheated... This guy is somewhere around 21 years old. He did not fail the Navy, the Navy failed him. For the love of all that is right, we send these boys (for that is what they are) into the lions den then chastise and throw them away for getting scratches.

Big, if you learn nothing else from this I want you to take away one thing. Your integrity and who you are is the most important thing. Not because of some trumped up statement that integrity is required to be a Nuke, but because it is a deep truth. You will be pushed and pulled and thrown to the wolves. The easiest paths will be laid out in front of you, but they will lead you to places you don't want to be. As a Navy veteran, I deeply and humbly apologize for what has happened to you. It should not have occurred. However, in the future you will have no excuse nor sympathy from me if it happens again. As I said, your integrity is the most important thing, and it is your responsibility to ensure that it is protected.

I certainly hope that your supervisors have the understanding needed to see that this is a failing on their part as well as yours. I also hope that you are given a second chance; from your recent and previous posts I would have been proud to have you serve alongside me when I was going through.

BZ... It's okay if you don't respond to this post. I can already assume that what you will say is that anything short of perfection is not good enough for you. I'm certain that throughout your whole life you've done nothing but eat skunk rectum and pass gas that smells like lilac bushes. Your broad sweeping and cynical view of pretty much anything and everything leads me to wonder how much of what you post is what you actually think is the truth. Please understand that I am not calling you a liar; it's just that I don't believe anything you say.

[Fermi2]

The navy didn't fail him, he failed himself. In the end, when push came to shove he let his standards drop and he caved. It's that simple. Two years ago I traded countless emails and PMs with Dennis and have a very nice thank you message he sent me for guiding him through his early trials as a nuke. So yeah I'm sad to see where Dennis has ended up but it's entirely his fault. I used to have a very high personal regard for Dennis and I'm positive he's a nice guy, I simply don't want him around any nuke at which I work. When the pressure got tough he caved and when push came to shove he let himself become part of the lowest common denominator.
As for my cynicism and what I post, there are 5 or 6 SROs who post here plus a multitude of others who I have guided through getting jobs in this industry and once they've gained employment have helped them get through their training programs. I cannot count the number of times I've spend half a night reading a schematic or a student text from ANOTHER facility to help someone because their training department didn't explain it adequately. I'm pretty sure the 20 or so people who either know me personally or that I've helped will tell you I'm pretty much everything I know myself to be. They'll all tell you I'm a hard nosed, hard arse SOB but I'm also very fair and I'll run through a brick wall if I think it'll help someone out.  But eh, I've actually accomplished something in this industry, how about you?

[bradley535]

Are you even a Nuke yet? By that I mean been through Nuke School and Qualified all your watches.

And I'm a real life qualified Shift Manager on both BWR and PWRs. A janitor.

I'm a Shift Manager at both BWRs and PWRs but I think you're lazy and was offended...

Why is it that every time someone disagrees with you, you have a formulaic response as a retort? You question their experience and shout about your own. I do have to say that you probably have more experience with the nuclear industry than any other poster here; what with you looking to retire here in 2 years. However, we are not talking about someone's abilities and expertise. If you care to take a breath and actually read the post, you will see that the discussion is on what BigH can do with what he has gotten himself in.

You say that the Navy didn't do this to him, but then who did? BigH started out 2 years ago as a promising young man ready and eager to learn. Fresh clay ready for the mold. The Navy, and all other branches of the US military, has promised to shape our young boys into the leaders of the future for generations before you were even born, BZ. Yet here you are expecting him to enter into the field an as is, ready to be, ready to lead, ready to face all, get-R-done hero before he's even fully qualified.

He was given a paper thin shield of a pumped-up, theoretical, idealistic view of what integrity meant. All of his 'integrity' training was given to him in A, Power, and Prototype Schools, then he gets to his ship and they throw him down a well shaft of 'if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying'. The same thing happened on my boat, but luckily I joined the Navy late in life and had my integrity instilled in me before I joined. There were many times that I had to fake a lack of integrity so as not to be ostracized from my peers and superiors. Thankfully, my ideals later paid off. They were even vindicated by a forced change of command and firing of an EDMC that quoted to me, "Integrity is something you keep in your pocket and use when you need it." However, in my youth, I doubt I would have had the maturity and life experience needed to make the right decisions when faced with those same instances. I would hope that I could have... but I doubt it. Perhaps you think that I too should not have my position and am unwelcome in your nuclear industry. After all, when I was BigH's age my integrity was not yet shaped and fortified to withstand all trials either. But here I am, twelve years past that, and ready to stand up for what I believe.

I read through his past posts and find promise. I read through his recent ones and find a failing. To say that the copability lies soley on him is to say that the Navy has no responsibility to uphold its centuries old tradition of making men of boys.

BigH, please understand that the entire Navy is not like what you have been through so far. There are many boats and ships and commands that can shape you into what you need to be to succeed. On the boat I served, there were five commands in the four+ years I served aboard it. The pain that your ship is going through now, may be what turns it into what the Navy promised you when you joined. Even this experience can be a blessing in disguise. It is a guaranteed life lesson that you will never forget. Make sure that when questioned, that you are honest and that you blame no one but yourself. Once again, I hope that the Navy gives you that second chance. Keep us posted.

BZ... It's sad really. I think we would be pretty good friends if you weren't such a jerk. You have a strong grip on your own integrity, you are knowledgeable, have high standards, and are usually willing to help others. However, you are mean. Not 'tough-but-fair', not 'strong-handed'... mean. That counts for something in my book, and sadly, you are on the wrong side of it.